Marriage of the Lamb before the Second Coming of Christ

AdB · 2025-08-10T09:10:51-0500

Rev 19 starts with "a great multitude in heaven", this then is explained to be in relation to the marriage of the Lamb to the believers.
So this marriage is taking place IN heaven.
So at that moment the believers are also IN heaven.
One may argue about what exactly that entails, but it seems to at least indicate the believers are not on earth in any regular or natural manner... So how did they got in heaven? It would be logical to assume that was through the "gathering of the saints" as indicated in the Olivet Discourse, aka the rapture.

It should then be noted that it's only AFTER this marriage that Christ returns to earth for His Second Coming, so this seems to be a strong argument for a rapture before and separate from the Second Coming.

But still, this doesn't state anything about the duration of this marriage, the time between the rapture and the Second Coming, if this is in the spiritual realm ("heaven"), then time might not be passing the same for that event as it does on earth.

So the explanation of the rapture being the saints "going out up into heaven to meet the Lord and then escort Him back to earth" could still be true at the same time.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-10T10:17:56-0500

AdB said:
Rev 19 starts with "a great multitude in heaven", this then is explained to be in relation to the marriage of the Lamb to the believers.
So this marriage is taking place IN heaven.
So at that moment the believers are also IN heaven.
One may argue about what exactly that entails, but it seems to at least indicate the believers are not on earth in any regular or natural manner... So how did they got in heaven? It would be logical to assume that was through the "gathering of the saints" as indicated in the Olivet Discourse, aka the rapture.

It should then be noted that it's only AFTER this marriage that Christ returns to earth for His Second Coming, so this seems to be a strong argument for a rapture before and separate from the Second Coming.

But still, this doesn't state anything about the duration of this marriage, the time between the rapture and the Second Coming, if this is in the spiritual realm ("heaven"), then time might not be passing the same for that event as it does on earth.

So the explanation of the rapture being the saints "going out up into heaven to meet the Lord and then escort Him back to earth" could still be true at the same time.

This vision from Jesus to John took place "on the Lord's day." That means it was a timeless day in which visions take place with little regard for sequence and timing. It was a *vision.*

The fact this marriage is seen in heaven is a product of the fact the vision was a *heavenly vision.* It did not mean, necessarily, that some future event will take place precisely like the vision.

A vision can be very symbolic, and certainly not the literal event with all of its timing and details. This vision is not the literal event, but only a portrayal of it in the form of a prolepsis (a future event pretending to take place now).

It can be argued that the vision consisted of many visions, even though it is a single narrative. Imagine a theatrical production in which scenes 1, 2, 3, and 4 all take place in a single sequence with one narrator narrating from beginning to end.

But scene 1 is a prolepsis, portraying a future event as if it is happening now. Scene 2 is an actual historical portrayal with a few flashbacks thrown in. Scene 3 is a symbolic presentation of some of the facets of scene 2, reflecting upon some of the important points involved in it. And scene 4 is a series of pictures showing the end in several different ways, all covering the same historical conclusion.

Revelation is a little like this. It's one big Vision and is covered by a single narration from beginning to end. But the Vision contains many smaller visions many of which are symbolic and cover the same historical events.

Just because there is a beginning and an end to the narration does not mean it reflects a literal historical scenario as if a parable or symbol is the actual history . And it does not mean they are all in sequence, reflecting an exact chronological order from ch. 1 to ch. 22.

The marriage scene is both symbolic and a prolepsis. It is portraying a future event as if it is already happening. And it is being shown as though in heaven, because in its symbolism heaven is the place where God determines this "marriage."

Inasmuch as it is a marriage in heaven it has to be symbolic. Marriages literally happen on the earth. And that's where people dwell in their married state--not in heaven where the marriage is certified.

The marriage vision is symbolic, being portrayed as happening immediately. But from the context we know that the event itself actually takes place at the end.

The end of the vision synchronizes with the end of the history. But that does not mean the heavenly marriage takes place either at the time John sees the vision (perhaps 90 AD), or before the "Supper of God, " a depiction of the end of this age, mentioned immediately after. A prolepsis is a timeless vision, and this marriage vision naturally is presented towards the end of the history being portrayed.

AdB · 2025-08-10T10:37:12-0500

I get your point of these texts not necessarily being absolutely sequential, but I don't think it's reasonable to think God would have these events described in a comple random order without good reason. So if not sequential, what reasons could there be toput these events in this particular order?

I don't agree the "marriage of the Lamb" has to be on earth, it's not a marriage between two humans, which is in fact the earthly representation of the marriage of the Lamb, so logically the representation of something spiritual, thus something that happens in the heavenly realms.

You state that in the actual sequence of events the marriage of the Lamb is at the end (But from the context we know that the event itself actually takes place at the end.)
Can you elaborate on this context?

RandyPNW · 2025-08-10T11:12:56-0500

AdB said:
I get your point of these texts not necessarily being absolutely sequential, but I don't think it's reasonable to think God would have these events described in a comple random order without good reason. So if not sequential, what reasons could there be toput these events in this particular order?

Obviously, the order of the visions is not "random." The Vision begins with a prolepsis, a picture of Christ coming with the clouds. If the Vision was completely sequential, Christ's Coming would not be displayed at the beginning of the book!

So this initial prolepsis sets the theme for the book, which is Christ's Coming. That is not random. The vision of heaven shows that the symbolic portrayal of the events of the book are being guided and inspired from heaven, from God's thrown room, and depicts history as being influenced and executed by angels.

The 7 sealed book takes this inspired story from beginning to end, as an inspired, pre-plannedd order in history. The Revelation itself is not just the 7 sealled book, but also includes other related, but separate visions.

For example, we see in the 6th seal people running from the 2nd Coming event. And in the 7th Trumpet we see the Kingdom actually coming. This displays God's program from the start--also not random. And two different depictions of the same event cannot take place chronologically!

We see from ch. 12 the cosmological battle between God's angels and Satan's angels. It is a major theme in the Bible--something that interrupted God's original plan for human history.

Following that is a NT display of events described in Dan 7, the reign of Antichrist and the coming of God's Kingdom. It's all given not to show a single chronological sequence from Rev 1 to 22 but rather to show the important elements of this vision, its theme, its prophetic history, and the eschatological matters given in Dan 7.

The marriage is a central theme in the Bible, in which God unites with His People forever via covenant. Since Sin has hindered the complete fulfillment of this promise, it is portrayed towards the end of the book.

Being that it is the conclusion of a covenant relationship there is no need for it being at the very end of the book--it is calculated to show the end of the covenant history--it is only one among several concluding matters to be listed at the end of the book.

AdB said:
I don't agree the "marriage of the Lamb" has to be on earth, it's not a marriage between two humans, which is in fact the earthly representation of the marriage of the Lamb, so logically the representation of something spiritual, thus something that happens in the heavenly realms.

I disagree. The marriage is between God and humans. And in various parables it is shown to be like earthly marriages.

The fact it is seen in heaven is a consequence of it being a heavenly vision. Both Armageddon and the Supper of the Lamb are presented from heaven, but obviously are events that take place on earth.

It may be significant that the marriage is shown in heaven where departed saints currently exist in order to include both living and dead saints at Christ's Coming. But a vision shown in heaven does not mean the events being portrayed must take place *in heaven.*

AdB said:
You state that in the actual sequence of events the marriage of the Lamb is at the end (But from the context we know that the event itself actually takes place at the end.)
Can you elaborate on this context?

See above.

AdB · 2025-08-10T11:54:42-0500

RandyPNW said:
If the Vision was completely sequential, Christ's Coming would not be displayed at the beginning of the book!

It's only stated Christ will return, His Second Coming is not described nor "depicted" here.

RandyPNW said:
it is only one among several concluding matters to be listed at the end of the book

I don't see no Biblical ground for different events that happen around the same time are described in reversed order...

RandyPNW said:
I disagree. The marriage is between God and humans. And in various parables it is shown to be like earthly marriages

A parable is what it says it is... A parable... I googled it for you...

A parable is, literally, something “cast alongside” something else. Jesus’ parables were stories that were “cast alongside” a truth in order to illustrate that truth. His parables were teaching aids and can be thought of as extended analogies or inspired comparisons. A common description of a parable is that it is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

RandyPNW said:
It may be significant that the marriage is shown in heaven where departed saints currently exist in order to include both living and dead saints at Christ's Coming

So you do think the deceased believers are actually in Heaven? And that the living believers will accompany them in Heaven... for the marriage...

RandyPNW · 2025-08-10T18:13:04-0500

AdB said:
It's only stated Christ will return, His Second Coming is not described nor "depicted" here.

False. It is in fact "depicted" in Rev 1, at the beginning of the overall Vision. This is given in the form of a prolepsis, appearing to happen now when it will actually happen in the future...

Rev 1.7 “Look, he is coming with the clouds,”
and “every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him”;
and all peoples on earth “will mourn because of him.”

This is based on the prophecy in Zech 12.10 “And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit[a] of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son."

This is not just a statement of fact, but a depiction. It begins with "Look."

AdB said:
I don't see no Biblical ground for different events that happen around the same time are described in reversed order...

You are here assuming it should be given in chronological order, which can be in "reverse order." However, a listing of events that happen around the same time do not have to have a chronological sequence.

Each facet of a diamond is part of the same diamond. In the same way, the Marriage Supper, Armageddon, the defeat of the Beast, the Coming of Christ, the start of the Kingdom are all included in the list of things that will happen at the conclusion of the age. There is no chronological order, even if their is a narrative sequence.

AdB said:
A parable is what it says it is... A parable... I googled it for you...

A parable is, literally, something “cast alongside” something else. Jesus’ parables were stories that were “cast alongside” a truth in order to illustrate that truth. His parables were teaching aids and can be thought of as extended analogies or inspired comparisons. A common description of a parable is that it is an earthly story with a heavenly meaning.

Apocalyptic literature is similar to material given in parables. These are symbolic presentations that are to be set aside as "visions," as opposed to the events they intend to portray in actual history.

For example, in ch. 12 we read of the red dragon, the woman with the crown of 12 stars, and angelic combat. These are symbolic representations of actual angelic warfare, the symbols being symbols and not the actual appearance of these things.

Same with the Beast coming up out of the sea or the Beast coming up out of the land. They are symbolic representations and not the actual appearance of these things as they will be literally experienced in history.

Do you think actual earthly trumpets will be blown 7 times, one after another? No, they represent a list of things that will happen in the same general time. Lists do not have to be chronological even though there may be at least partly a chronological sequence.

Do you think bowls will literally pour things out 7 times in history? Some think so. I do not. I think they represent different facets of the time in which Antichrist and his Kingdom will be judged towards the end of Antichrist's reign.

AdB said:
So you do think the deceased believers are actually in Heaven? And that the living believers will accompany them in Heaven... for the marriage...

As I said, this is a Vision John is given to see in heaven. I think the actual marriage will be fulfilled on earth, though it is presented as an earthly ceremony in heaven. It's actual fulfillment will be the spiritual union of glorified saints with the Lord. This will certainly be finalized and supervised by the Lord who Himself is in heaven. But where we will be when it is finalized is with Christ as he descends from the clouds to earth.

AdB · 2025-08-11T03:15:59-0500

RandyPNW said:
False. It is in fact "depicted" in Rev 1, at the beginning of the overall Vision. This is given in the form of a prolepsis, appearing to happen now when it will actually happen in the future...

False, this verse indicates the whole process of the second coming has been set in motion, but the actual appearing of the Son of Men is specifically mentioned in future tense...

ὄψεται (opsetai)
Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Singular

will mourn
κόψονται (kopsontai)
Verb - Future Indicative Middle - 3rd Person Plural

RandyPNW said:
Each facet of a diamond is part of the same diamond

But each facet of a diamond is cut one at a time, and each faced is observed one at a time...
My point is that if there is a good reason for presenting chronological events (and they are, they are not happening at the very same moment) in reversed order, then these reasons will be clear, which is not the case in Rev 19

RandyPNW said:
Apocalyptic literature is similar to material given in parables. These are symbolic presentations that are to be set aside as "visions," as opposed to the events they intend to portray in actual history.

Indeed, and that is my point, the human marriage is a symbolic presentation of the marriage of the Lamb, which itself is not an earthly marriage

RandyPNW said:
As I said, this is a Vision John is given to see in heaven. I think the actual marriage will be fulfilled on earth, though it is presented as an earthly ceremony in heaven. It's actual fulfillment will be the spiritual union of glorified saints with the Lord. This will certainly be finalized and supervised by the Lord who Himself is in heaven. But where we will be when it is finalized is with Christ as he descends from the clouds to earth

So no need to forcefully place the marriage of the Lamb in an earthly scene where the text clearly shows it's happening in the heavenly realm.
To clarify, it doesn't mean we won't have a physical body during this marriage in heaven because will will have then received our glorified bodies...

JulieB67 · 2025-08-11T07:57:50-0500

AdB said:
So at that moment the believers are also IN heaven.

Yes, those believers that are coming back with him. Those that have passed away, etc. They are waiting for this moment.

But the marriage supper is being prepared "after" the great harlot has been judged. So this would be after the tribulation. The Bride has made herself ready and it's being prepared. But again, it comes after the tribulation. as noted by this verse

Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Those servants are in heaven as well waiting. And they will return with him.

AdB said:
It would be logical to assume that was through the "gathering of the saints" as indicated in the Olivet Discourse, aka the rapture.

Paul makes it pretty clear that our gathering back together will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin revealed.

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well but it's not biblical. And we are given very strict warnings on this subject by Christ and Paul to not be deceived by any means. It's that important.

AdB · 2025-08-11T09:33:54-0500

JulieB67 said:
Yes, those believers that are coming back with him. Those that have passed away, etc. They are waiting for this moment.

But the marriage supper is being prepared "after" the great harlot has been judged. So this would be after the tribulation. The Bride has made herself ready and it's being prepared. But again, it comes after the tribulation. as noted by this verse

Revelation 19:2 "For true and righteous are his judgments: for he hath judged the great harlot, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand."

Those servants are in heaven as well waiting. And they will return with him.

Paul makes it pretty clear that our gathering back together will not happen until a falling away (apostasy) and the man of sin revealed.

I used to believe in a pretrib rapture as well but it's not biblical. And we are given very strict warnings on this subject by Christ and Paul to not be deceived by any means. It's that important.

That is why I currently stand at "post trib pre wrath rapture"...

We will go through the tribulation (although I think the antichrist will not have total world domination) but we will be raptured before the judgement. I think that period of judgement will be quite swift and we may actually be on earth with resurected bodies together with Chist as the heavenly army.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-11T10:40:45-0500

AdB said:
False, this verse indicates the whole process of the second coming has been set in motion, but the actual appearing of the Son of Men is specifically mentioned in future tense...

No, it is not false. I quoted it for you. It begins with "Behold," which is present tense. As I said, a "prolepsis" is a future event being shown as if it is happening in the present.

AdB said:
But each facet of a diamond is cut one at a time, and each faced is observed one at a time...
My point is that if there is a good reason for presenting chronological events (and they are, they are not happening at the very same moment) in reversed order, then these reasons will be clear, which is not the case in Rev 19

I'm not talking about the chronological sequence of "cutting a diamond," but of the fact each facet can be talked about in order of time, even though each facet is part of the same diamond. In the Revelation, various facets of Christ's Coming are talked about, including the rescue of the saints, the judgment of the Beast, and the initiation of the Kingdom, even though they all happen at the same time.

This Coming of Christ is mentioned at the onset of the Vision, but given that there is a narrative sequence, the actual Coming is more graphically depicted, or with more details, towards the end of the Vision. Throughout the book, the Coming of Christ is depicted or referred to in a number of ways.

AdB said:
Indeed, and that is my point, the human marriage is a symbolic presentation of the marriage of the Lamb, which itself is not an earthly marriage

Our future dwelling will be on earth. And so we return "with Christ" at his Coming, having 1st obtained glorified bodies that are worthy of this "marriage." We do not fail to return with him *from heaven.* The marriage will likely be both heavenly and earthly. I don't seee a marital ceremony in heaven without new glorified bodies. And if we have new glorified bodies it will be outfitted for both heaven and earth.

AdB said:
So no need to forcefully place the marriage of the Lamb in an earthly scene where the text clearly shows it's happening in the heavenly realm.

The text clearly shows the Vision began in heaven. It was a "vision," and not a literal depiction as you suggest.

AdB said:
To clarify, it doesn't mean we won't have a physical body during this marriage in heaven because will will have then received our glorified bodies...

If we have glorified bodies, it will be so that we may return from heaven with Christ to the earth.

AdB · 2025-08-11T11:35:21-0500

RandyPNW said:
No, it is not false. I quoted it for you. It begins with "Behold," which is present tense. As I said, a "prolepsis" is a future event being shown as if it is happening in the present

So just ignore the words with future tense?

RandyPNW said:
even though they all happen at the same time

Here we disagree, I think there are many separate events, all connected to the second coming, but still distinct. Some event may happen simultaneously, but not those involving the same players and with a completely different scenario

RandyPNW said:
Our future dwelling will be on earth. And so we return "with Christ" at his Coming, having 1st obtained glorified bodies that are worthy of this "marriage." We do not fail to return with him *from heaven.* The marriage will likely be both heavenly and earthly. I don't seee a marital ceremony in heaven without new glorified bodies. And if we have new glorified bodies it will be outfitted for both heaven and earth

I agree, specially the last sentence, so no need to force the marriage to be on earth when it is clearly described as happening in heaven, especially with other events described specifically on earth

RandyPNW · 2025-08-11T11:41:47-0500

AdB said:
So just ignore the words with future tense?

Of course not. We know we're looking at a future event because of the future tense and also because of the context. But you can't ignore the present tense, as well, indicating it is a "prolepsis."

AdB said:
Here we disagree, I think there are many separate events, all connected to the second coming, but still distinct. Some event may happen simultaneously, but not those involving the same players and with a completely different scenario

My point is that the Revelation is a series of visions, each with their own emphasis. They are all connected in some way with the 2nd Coming, even if the various events have a slightly different timing.

This isn't a chronological order of events, but a series of visions which sometimes overlap the same time period. They contain prolepses and flashbacks. They contain visions of the same event looked at in different ways.

The many visions are not to be lined up chronologically in sequence as the narration continues. You cannot have the vision in Rev 12, the Woman and the Dragon, following, chronologically, the blowing of the 7th Trumpet in Rev 11.

AdB said:
I agree, specially the last sentence, so no need to force the marriage to be on earth when it is clearly described as happening in heaven, especially with other events described specifically on earth

The marriage is depicted as in an earthly marriage, but certainly something celestial. In substance, it is a certified eternal connection between God and His People, taking place at the moment of our glorification.

I doubt there will be a literal ceremony as in an earthly wedding. I just know our covenant relationship will be completed, and I think that's all we're being told. Again, these are heavenly visions that use the typical apocalptic imagery and symbolism.

AdB · 2025-08-11T12:01:37-0500

RandyPNW said:
Of course not. We know we're looking at a future event because of the future tense and also because of the context. But you can't ignore the present tense, as well, indicating it is a "prolepsis

Indeed here the second coming is mentioned prior to when it happens chronologically, and it is made clear by the application of future tense.
Thát is what I mean regarding assuming chronology of subsequent events when there is NO reason give to assume otherwise.

RandyPNW said:
The marriage is depicted as in an earthly marriage

Not really, it's literally describes as happening in heaven

RandyPNW · 2025-08-11T13:22:09-0500

AdB said:
Indeed here the second coming is mentioned prior to when it happens chronologically, and it is made clear by the application of future tense.
Thát is what I mean regarding assuming chronology of subsequent events when there is NO reason give to assume otherwise.

You're making my whole argument for me. What you admit is a future event is mentioned at the beginning of the book of Revelation. The visions in the book are not in chronological sequence. Each vision has its own chronological sequence.

AdB · 2025-08-11T13:50:15-0500

RandyPNW said:
You're making my whole argument for me. What you admit is a future event is mentioned at the beginning of the book of Revelation. The visions in the book are not in chronological sequence. Each vision has its own chronological sequence.

I said that in 7:1 it was clear this was an event described out of its chronological context because of the utilization of the future tense which is clearly not the case in chapter 19, while you still fail to provide any reason for thát specific text to be written non chronological.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-11T16:49:32-0500

AdB said:
I said that in 7:1 it was clear this was an event described out of its chronological context because of the utilization of the future tense which is clearly not the case in chapter 19, while you still fail to provide any reason for thát specific text to be written non chronological.

I have not failed at all. You're just not accepting my reasons. I'm not sure if you claiming *every vision* given in the Revelation takes place consecutively, in chronological order, or if you're just saying that a particular vision within the book of Revelation is in exact chronological sequence.

Either way, it can easily be proven that an exact chronological sequence is not followed from vision to vision, and often within a single vision. And I gave you examples of that.

If a future tense indicates an exception within the course of the book, interrupting a chronological sequence, I would argue that the entire book is that way, not holding to an exact chronological sequence at all. If a prolepsis or a flashback can be introduced among the many visions, then they clearly are not visions all given in chronological sequence.

In ch. 19 you have a number of things happening, and when someone reiterates a truth it is clearly not anything more than the same event spoken of several times. It is not the two exact events happening as separate events following chronologically!

Rev 19.1 Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries...
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”...
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army....

As you should be able to see, the event is a *future* event being spoken of as seen in a heavenly vision. As such, there is little concern for a chronological documentary of the history in exact sequence, or real time. Rather, 1st the condemnation and judgment of the Prostitute is mentioned. Then the Wedding Supper of the Lamb is mentioned, as if a direct consequence of the judgment of the Prostitute.

Then we see the Beast Army gathering, which in real time would *precede* the judgment of the Prostitute and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. So, this is just a literary feature of this kind of description--a heavenly vision portraying in symbolic language what will really happen around the time of Christ's Coming. There is no need to be exact with the chronology of each event.

AdB · 2025-08-11T17:39:17-0500

RandyPNW said:
I have not failed at all. You're just not accepting my reasons. I'm not sure if you claiming *every vision* given in the Revelation takes place consecutively, in chronological order, or if you're just saying that a particular vision within the book of Revelation is in exact chronological sequence.

Either way, it can easily be proven that an exact chronological sequence is not followed from vision to vision, and often within a single vision. And I gave you examples of that.

If a future tense indicates an exception within the course of the book, interrupting a chronological sequence, I would argue that the entire book is that way, not holding to an exact chronological sequence at all. If a prolepsis or a flashback can be introduced among the many visions, then they clearly are not visions all given in chronological sequence.

In ch. 19 you have a number of things happening, and when someone reiterates a truth it is clearly not anything more than the same event spoken of several times. It is not the two exact events happening as separate events following chronologically!

Rev 19.1 Salvation and glory and power belong to our God,
2 for true and just are his judgments.
He has condemned the great prostitute
who corrupted the earth by her adulteries...
9 Then the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the wedding supper of the Lamb!” And he added, “These are the true words of God.”...
19 Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army....

As you should be able to see, the event is a *future* event being spoken of as seen in a heavenly vision. As such, there is little concern for a chronological documentary of the history in exact sequence, or real time. Rather, 1st the condemnation and judgment of the Prostitute is mentioned. Then the Wedding Supper of the Lamb is mentioned, as if a direct consequence of the judgment of the Prostitute.

Then we see the Beast Army gathering, which in real time would *precede* the judgment of the Prostitute and the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. So, this is just a literary feature of this kind of description--a heavenly vision portraying in symbolic language what will really happen around the time of Christ's Coming. There is no need to be exact with the chronology of each event.

Except that the prostitute Babylon is not the same as the beast

Marriage of the Lamb before the Second Coming of Christ

Heb 11:1

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