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Thessalonians 4 Does Not Teach a Rapture Separate from the Second Coming

RandyPNW

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The rapture of the saints occurs after the resurrection of all mankind at the end of time.
My understanding is that the Gathering of Elect Israel, including the Departed, will take place at the time Israel's "Time of Distress" ends, which will be when Christ Returns.

Paul lumped the Salvation of Elect Israel together with the Salvation of the Elect from all nations. It will take place at the Return of Christ from the clouds, with the angels gathering us up.

I don't think time will ever end for us, since we are creatures created to live in time, or in a progressive way. So, I'm not sure what you mean by the "end of time?"
 
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Dale

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From liberty univ. Some evidence prior to Darby.
BRIEF HISTORY OF THE RAPTURE
Tom’s Perspectives
by Thomas Ice
"One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is t church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of
pe cholars such as John Walvoord,1
it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3
Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.
You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.4
Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but more likely the product of one scholars call
Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World. 5
The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. Therapture statement reads as follows:
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepareourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints andelect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are
taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Over and over, people have tried to tell me that there were Christians in the ancient world who believed in something like the modern notion of “rapture.” I have spent time and energy running these claims down and I have always found them to be false.

You are quoting Thomas Ice, who is associated with Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) and with Liberty University. Liberty University teaches creationism. I’ve read that in science class, LU teaches that Noah had room for dinosaurs on the Ark. If that comes up on a true/false test you have to mark it A true.

The modern idea of “rapture” came out of Dispensationalism. Thomas Ice is a Dispensationalist. I can make no sense out of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists teach that from time to time, God issues a decree changing His plan of salvation. These are the Dispensations. I don’t believe that. Our God is a God of stability, of constancy. God knows everything and has no need to change His mind. Dispensationalists teach that God did not foresee the need for the church, or the church age. Again, I can make no sense out of this.

I have read one lengthy article by Thomas Ice and I cannot see him as an authority on anything. It’s all just a shell game.
 
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Dale

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The phrase "second coming" is not in the Bible

John 14 "I will come again and RECEIVE you" to Myself after I GO to My Father's house to prepare A PLACE for you there I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself. Take you to heaven.


The foolish do not get taken , the wicked do not get raptured.

There are two versions of premill rapture, only one of them is a dispensationalist pretrib secret rapture.

The other version is the "Historic Pre-mill" view where the rapture is not secret and is post-trib.
And it has the saints taken to heaven prior to the millennium (in the view that I follow)



agreed. first is "His appearing" as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19. Then after the 1000 years is His coming to Earth to reign.


No text says the rapture is secret in Matt 24 it is global , visible , world wide. So also in 1 Thess 4

Yep. The rapture event is very public as 1 Thess 4 proves


"soul departs and returns to God who gave it " at death according to the OT.

Saints receive glorified resurrected bodies at the 1 Thess 4 rapture event


?? Saints from all ages resurrect in 1 Thess 4 "The dead in Christ rise first"

Heaven -- according to Christ in John 14 Jesus went to His Father's house, prepared a place there for the saints in that house belonging to "His Father in Heaven" in that place where Jesus went at His resurrection

John 14:1-3 Jesus says "I GO to prepare A PLACE for you "in My Father's house" and then HE returns to take saints "to His Father's house " (our Father who IS IN Heaven Matt 6). Clearly Jesus comes to take the saints to Heaven.

Matt 24:29-31 Jesus sends His angels "to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other" vs 31.

How is it that the saints are in the sky "from one end of the sky to the other" when He returns as per Matt 24?

The answer is the rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-18.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That is the rapture of the saints who are resurrected and taken up in the air , and living saints caught up together with them. When the Lord comes to take the saints "to His Father's house" His Father "who is in heaven"

Bob Ryan: “The phrase "second coming" is not in the Bible.”



Here is what the Bible does say.

They were looking intently up into the sky as he was going,
when suddenly two men dressed in white stood beside them.299
“Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking
into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you
into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen
him go into heaven
.”
Acts 1: 10-11 NIV


That’s pretty clear.
 
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Dale

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Here is a verse which disproves any notion of a “rapture” separate from the Second Coming.

[Peter says]
He [Christ] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to
restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:21 NIV


This rules out any secret flyby where Christ flies over and grabs Christians off the earth. Peter says that Jesus will “remain in heaven” until the time if right to “restore everything.” Jesus will not remove Christians from the world, and then leave an Antichrist oppressing and terrorizing everyone, and persecuting those who become Christians after the “rapture.” When God restores all things, there will not be an Antichrist in power and Satan will not be gathering the nations for war.
 
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johansen

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Here is a verse which disproves any notion of a “rapture” separate from the Second Coming.

[Peter says]
He [Christ] must remain in heaven until the time comes for God to
restore everything, as he promised long ago through his holy prophets.
Acts 3:21 NIV


This rules out any secret flyby where Christ flies over and grabs Christians off the earth. Peter says that Jesus will “remain in heaven” until the time if right to “restore everything.” Jesus will not remove Christians from the world, and then leave an Antichrist oppressing and terrorizing everyone, and persecuting those who become Christians after the “rapture.” When God restores all things, there will not be an Antichrist in power and Satan will not be gathering the nations for war.
depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.
 
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RandyPNW

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Over and over, people have tried to tell me that there were Christians in the ancient world who believed in something like the modern notion of “rapture.” I have spent time and energy running these claims down and I have always found them to be false.

You are quoting Thomas Ice, who is associated with Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) and with Liberty University. Liberty University teaches creationism. I’ve read that in science class, LU teaches that Noah had room for dinosaurs on the Ark. If that comes up on a true/false test you have to mark it A true.

The modern idea of “rapture” came out of Dispensationalism. Thomas Ice is a Dispensationalist. I can make no sense out of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists teach that from time to time, God issues a decree changing His plan of salvation. These are the Dispensations. I don’t believe that. Our God is a God of stability, of constancy. God knows everything and has no need to change His mind. Dispensationalists teach that God did not foresee the need for the church, or the church age. Again, I can make no sense out of this.

I have read one lengthy article by Thomas Ice and I cannot see him as an authority on anything. It’s all just a shell game.
Well, I took a course with Liberty U. and did not find it unChristian or anything like that. Other than that I agree with you. ;)
 
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Dale

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depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.

Johansen, glad to meet you since I don’t think we’ve met before on CF.

No verse says anything about God removing Christians from the earth before the end of the world, The only way to find a “rapture” in the Bible is to separate the Second Coming into two parts. Fervent believers in a “rapture” have told me that separating the Second Coming into two parts is a necessary condition. That’s why Jesus has to “leave heaven” for the “rapture.”

I’m not sure what “reapers” in the Bible you are referring to.



In the Parable of the Wheat and Tares, the tares, the wicked are actually burned first. This happens in Matthew 13:30. The timing is inconsistent with the Dispensationalist belief that Christians will be removed years before the Jesus returns publicly and openly to the earth, to set up His kingdom. Instead, God destroys the wicked first. Then the meek inherit the earth.

Mt. 13:24Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is
like a man who sowed good seed in his field.
Mt. 13:25But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed
weeds among the wheat, and went away.
Mt. 13:26When the wheat sprouted and formed ears, then the weeds
also appeared.
Mt. 13:27“The owner’s servants came to him and said, `Sir, didn’t you
sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come
from?’
Mt. 13:28“`An enemy did this,’ he replied. “The servants asked him,
`Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
Mt. 13:29“`No,’ he answered, `because while you are pulling the
weeds, you may root up the wheat with them.
Mt. 13:30Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will
tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in

bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into
my barn.’“

Matthew 13:24-30 NIV
 
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RandyPNW

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depending on your view points, it is not nessisary for Christ to leave heaven.

as Jesus explains, the reapers at the end of this age, are angels.
No, Jesus, the "Son of Man," is said to come back the way he left (Acts 1), which means he comes back to earth. Paul said he leaves heaven when he comes, which means he comes to the earth. This belief originates from Dan 7 where the Son of Man is viewed as coming with the clouds, which means he is initially unseen in heaven but then comes to be revealed to the earth.
 
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johansen

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No, Jesus, the "Son of Man," is said to come back the way he left (Acts 1), which means he comes back to earth. Paul said he leaves heaven when he comes, which means he comes to the earth. This belief originates from Dan 7 where the Son of Man is viewed as coming with the clouds, which means he is initially unseen in heaven but then comes to be revealed to the earth.
Both you and the other seem to presume im a rapture believer.

Paul can say what he wants.

But let us go back to Jesus: The reapers are angels.

The wheat and the tares both grow till the harvest when they are separated by the reapers who are angels..

The wheat which is brought into the barn could indeed be a rapture off this burned planet.
 
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RandyPNW

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Both you and the other seem to presume im a rapture believer.
I have no idea what you believe. But this is a Christian forum, so....
Paul can say what he wants.
What does that mean, that you dis Paul?
But let us go back to Jesus: The reapers are angels.
Let's stick with Paul, because Jesus called him.

The point is that the saints are caught up with the help of angels. This happens as fast as an eye sparkles. We are caught up to the clouds in order to return with Jesus. He "returns just as he left." Acts 1.
The wheat and the tares both grow till the harvest when they are separated by the reapers who are angels..

The wheat which is brought into the barn could indeed be a rapture off this burned planet.
The wheat brought into barns is a metaphor. But we have clear-cut doctrine, and don't have to guess what it means.
 
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JulieB67

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Yes, as it's been already stated, you can't work a pretrib rapture around these verses-

Hebrews 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time without sin, unto salvation."

Acts 3:21 "Whom the heaven must receive unto the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all His holy prophets since the world began."

I Thessalonians 4:16 "For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with a voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first;"

He's leaving heaven in 4:16, so that's it. That would be the second time, and therefore as Acts 3:21 tells us the restitution of all things.

And as already been stated as well -he's returning the same way he left.

Acts 1:11 "Which also said, "Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, Which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen Him go into heaven."

And from what point did he leave?

Acts 1:12 "Then returned they unto Jerusalem from the mount called Olivet, which is from Jerusalem a sabbath day's journey."

He will return exactly like he left, to the mount of Olives. Just like the angels stated,


Zechariah 14:1 "Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee."

Zechariah 14:4 "And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south."

I Thessalonians 5:2 "For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night."


I Thessalonians 5:3 "For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape."
 
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Richard T

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Over and over, people have tried to tell me that there were Christians in the ancient world who believed in something like the modern notion of “rapture.” I have spent time and energy running these claims down and I have always found them to be false.

You are quoting Thomas Ice, who is associated with Tim LaHaye (Left Behind) and with Liberty University. Liberty University teaches creationism. I’ve read that in science class, LU teaches that Noah had room for dinosaurs on the Ark. If that comes up on a true/false test you have to mark it A true.

The modern idea of “rapture” came out of Dispensationalism. Thomas Ice is a Dispensationalist. I can make no sense out of Dispensationalism. Dispensationalists teach that from time to time, God issues a decree changing His plan of salvation. These are the Dispensations. I don’t believe that. Our God is a God of stability, of constancy. God knows everything and has no need to change His mind. Dispensationalists teach that God did not foresee the need for the church, or the church age. Again, I can make no sense out of this.

I have read one lengthy article by Thomas Ice and I cannot see him as an authority on anything. It’s all just a shell game.
Of course that is your prerogative to discredit Ice, yet the quotes he has from way before Darby are what you should address if you want to further your no rapture views. To bring up other issues Noah's ark and creationism do nothing either for the argument against the rapture.
 
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RandyPNW

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Of course that is your prerogative to discredit Ice, yet the quotes he has from way before Darby are what you should address if you want to further your no rapture views. To bring up other issues Noah's ark and creationism do nothing either for the argument against the rapture.
It's not just Ice that can be discredited but the entire Pretribulational perspective. There have been isolated examples of Christians in history who have seen a negligible separation between Rapture and 2nd Coming. This was only to indicate that Christians escape the direct outpouring of God's wrath on Antichrist--not to separate the events by a significant length of time.

Throughout Christian history, the Rapture and the 2nd Coming have been portrayed as together with only slight variations, as I indicated. It has largely been the Church continuing to be on earth up to and through the reign of Antichrist.

This discredits Ice, Darby, and any pretribulational view. No pretribulational theology exists prior to Darby that I know of--not of any real significant impact within the history of the Church.

The point about Creationism and the Flood are, I think, relevant, inasmuch as it shows how Fundamentalism can push literalism too far. It means that these people are as subject to error as any other, no matter how fundamental they may be in their Christian beliefs, ie orthodox in their Christian doctrine. But of course, to prove or disprove pretribulationism has nothing to do with those subjects.
 
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Richard T

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It's not just Ice that can be discredited but the entire Pretribulational perspective. There have been isolated examples of Christians in history who have seen a negligible separation between Rapture and 2nd Coming. This was only to indicate that Christians escape the direct outpouring of God's wrath on Antichrist--not to separate the events by a significant length of time.

Throughout Christian history, the Rapture and the 2nd Coming have been portrayed as together with only slight variations, as I indicated. It has largely been the Church continuing to be on earth up to and through the reign of Antichrist.

This discredits Ice, Darby, and any pretribulational view. No pretribulational theology exists prior to Darby that I know of--not of any real significant impact within the history of the Church.

The point about Creationism and the Flood are, I think, relevant, inasmuch as it shows how Fundamentalism can push literalism too far. It means that these people are as subject to error as any other, no matter how fundamental they may be in their Christian beliefs, ie orthodox in their Christian doctrine. But of course, to prove or disprove pretribulationism has nothing to do with those subjects.
Even if I were to concede that dispensationalism not around prior to Darby, there have been other ideas in the church that have ebbed and flowed at one period or another. Martin Luther's ideas, Reformist theology, and Arminianism to a point are such examples. I personally leave room for alternative possibilities but no eschatological system that I have heard of can explain it all very clearly. Many churches even avoid this topic or skim over it at best. Some seem so dogmatic about their beliefs when I doubt many have had much good teaching on all the alternatives, which I admit that I lack as well.
 
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Dale

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Here is another verse which disproves the modern notion of “rapture.” Jesus praying in the Garden of Gethsemane before His arrest:

My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that
you protect them from the evil one.
John 17:15 NIV


Jesus tells us that He does not expect to take His disciples and followewrs “out of the world.” Our Saviour, Jesus, does not desire this. Instead, He prays to the Father for all of the disciples to be guided and strengthened to avoid and resist temptation.
 
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The Liturgist

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The rapture as most people think of it is basically an innovation of John Nelson Darby, a 19th century Restorationist preacher who developed Premillenial Dispensationalism, and is thus not relevant since it has no basis in the early faith as recorded through Patristic sources.
 
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RandyPNW

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Even if I were to concede that dispensationalism not around prior to Darby, there have been other ideas in the church that have ebbed and flowed at one period or another. Martin Luther's ideas, Reformist theology, and Arminianism to a point are such examples. I personally leave room for alternative possibilities but no eschatological system that I have heard of can explain it all very clearly. Many churches even avoid this topic or skim over it at best. Some seem so dogmatic about their beliefs when I doubt many have had much good teaching on all the alternatives, which I admit that I lack as well.
Well, that's a very large subject, ie the idea that in Church History there have been some very large disagreements indicating that the persistence of theologies do not prove their credibility or their truthfulness. Both sides of Arminianism and Predestinationism cannot be true. And yet large sections of the Church have believed in either side and for a persistently long time. And groups on both sides have generally been pretty upstanding Christians.

I think there are reasons for this, but that is not our subject presently. Thank you. It's a good point, but requires another thread.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Not only that but the Olivet Discourse is based on a combination of Dan 7 and Dan 9. In Dan 7 the Son of Man comes with the clouds to destroy the Man of Sin and to set up God's Kingdom on the earth. That is pretty clearly Postrib.
Where do you get the idea of Daniel 7 saying anything the Son of Man coming with the clouds to destroy the man of sin? The Son of Man coming with the clouds is referenced in Daniel 7:13-14 which I believe is a clear reference to the ascension of Christ because it talks about Him coming with the clouds of heaven and being taken TO the Ancient of Days (God the Father) and brought before Him. Compare Daniel 7:13-14 to Ephesians 1:19-23 and note all the similarities. Paul taught that when Jesus was resurrected and placed at the right hand of the Father He was then "far above all principality and power and might and dominion, and every name that is named" with the Father putting "all things under His feet" and making Him "head over all things to the church".

Dan 9 talks about the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" by the "Abomination of Desolation," which in Luke 21 identifies the AoD as the Roman Army destroying Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, and sees the Son of Man returning to gather up Jewish believers, while restoring the nation after an age-long Jewish Diaspora, also called a Jewish "Punishment." That also is clearly Postrib.
I'm talking about the future return of Christ being post-trib. As in occurring after a time of tribulation just before His return. Post-trib has nothing to do with 70 AD as far as I'm concerned.

Paul adds to Jesus' scenario in the Olivet Discourse the inclusion of the international Church with the Jewish remnant of Christians. When Christ returns he will bring with him all those from all nations who have died in his faith. And he will establish on earth spiritual rule through glorified Christians from all nations. We do not have to agree on everything to agree on some of these other important points.
You know I, as an amillennialist, disagree on what you're saying here, so I'm not sure why you said it to me. It seems that we are each post-trib for completely different reasons.
 
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Incorrect. . .the man of lawlessness must be revealed first (2 Th 2:3-12).
And the mass falling away from the faith (apostasy) as well.

2 Thessalonians 2:3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition,
 
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