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Gaza: In the face of horror, we cannot look away.

rambot

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How is a statement of fact circular? I stated that Israel is dealing with Hamas now. Of course, you add your political drama for impact.
You said Israel is dealing with hamas
I said the peoblem is how they are dealing with hamas. You said they're dealing with hamas.

Not sure how much more clear to get.

You chasing a straw man. I am not an Israel supporter. I detest terrorists organizations like Hamas. These terrorist organizations expose their civilians to the results of their failed terrorist actions and you drink the kool aid by supporting them.
a yes. That position. I don't support Israel but I condemn terrorists...because apparently Israel is not acting like a terrorist to gazans.

Nah. Every time the IDF has responded militarily has been in response to a Hamas attack. And Hamas uses the Palestinian people as shields to maximize the casualty count and play the fake news card.
I think it's time to grow up and recognize that you don't fact support Israel.


Because they are.

If you want to bury your head is the sand then do so at your own intellectual peril.

Folks that cant keep up with the arguments always devolve to ad Homs. Typical.

You obviously only read what agrees with you. You should expand your reading inventory to things that challenge your intellect.

Here is another report of Hamas using Palestinians for shields.

To be clear you believe the use of human shields would demonstrate an organizations desperate and barbaric nature?
 
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Hentenza

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To be clear you believe the use of human shields would demonstrate an organizations desperate and barbaric nature?
If the shoe fits. I don’t think Hamas is desperate, although they might be getting there, but calculating. Terrorists want max effect.
 
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rambot

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I think it's safe to say there have been a few bad actors on both sides of the conflict. Moreover, the weighted emotional freight that pushes against the peace process in Israel / Palestine / Gaza Strip has been in the making for over 120 years. This current manifestation of that same conflict is unfortunately freighted by its larger history. As much as we ALL would like to see this conflict and its attending suffering on both sides end, there's just so much more in the memory of both peoples caught in this, and for too long, that it just keeps spilling over on both sides.

With that said, I'm taking a sort of 'middle' view, with the same hope that the current episode of conflict in Gaza can resolve quickly and turn into a more humanitarian direction. All this 'moralized' mudslinging on both sides does nothing to solve the problem.
I 100% recognize there are no good actors.
I also believe there is nothing that will solve this problem.

Alli want is an honest discussion about how terribly Israel treats gazans...and I'm nor even talking about human shield deaths foe which the responsibility for deaths is shared.

I'm talking about patrols that randomly break children's arms. I'm talking about children getting sniped at food distribution points; I'm talking about video bloggers sitting on a sea wall getting shot for no reason. Just acknowledging these things happen, bit rhey can't even do that. Gazans cannot be believed.

And maybe I'm fighting foe the idea that you can believe Muslim person when discussing Israel.
If the shoe fits. I don’t think Hamas is desperate, although they might be getting there, but calculating. Terrorists want max effect.
https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...uman-shields-80f358dd2c87a1123f26ffada159701c



Yes.

If the shoe fits.
 
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Hentenza

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Hentenza

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I 100% recognize there are no good actors.
I also believe there is nothing that will solve this problem.

Alli want is an honest discussion about how terribly Israel treats gazans...and I'm nor even talking about human shield deaths foe which the responsibility for deaths is shared.
How can you possibly have an honest discussion if your mind is made up that all of the fault falls on Israel and none on Hamas?
 
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public hermit

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With that said, I'm taking a sort of 'middle' view, with the same hope that the current episode of conflict in Gaza can resolve quickly and turn into a more humanitarian direction.

The prospects aren't looking good for a more humanitarian direction. UN officials met with the GFH, but it doesn't seem any agreement was made. I like that Germany is not going to send any more weapons to Israel. That is one way to support a more humanitarian direction. The US is still trying to walk the line on that one, both tacitly supporting Israel (definitely still arming them), and trying to meet the humanitarian need (brokering a meeting between the UN and GFH). But with Israeli forces going in to take over the whole place, that only means there will be more death and destruction before any kind of positive direction is taken for the folks living there. Netanyahu needs to go. He's horrible, and I think most of Israel agrees.



 
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2PhiloVoid

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I 100% recognize there are no good actors.
I also believe there is nothing that will solve this problem.

Alli want is an honest discussion about how terribly Israel treats gazans...and I'm nor even talking about human shield deaths foe which the responsibility for deaths is shared.

I'm talking about patrols that randomly break children's arms. I'm talking about children getting sniped at food distribution points; I'm talking about video bloggers sitting on a sea wall getting shot for no reason. Just acknowledging these things happen, bit rhey can't even do that. Gazans cannot be believed.

And maybe I'm fighting foe the idea that you can believe Muslim person when discussing Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...uman-shields-80f358dd2c87a1123f26ffada159701c


Yes, I can understand your side of things too. It's a ridiculous mess over there.
 
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FireDragon76

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I think it's safe to say there have been a few bad actors on both sides of the conflict. Moreover, the weighted emotional freight that pushes against the peace process in Israel / Palestine / Gaza Strip has been in the making for over 120 years. This current manifestation of that same conflict is unfortunately freighted by its larger history. As much as we ALL would like to see this conflict and its attending suffering on both sides end, there's just so much more in the memory of both peoples caught in this, and for too long, that it just keeps spilling over on both sides.

With that said, I'm taking a sort of 'middle' view, with the same hope that the current episode of conflict in Gaza can resolve quickly and turn into a more humanitarian direction. All this 'moralized' mudslinging on both sides does nothing to solve the problem.

While I recognize some nuance, I don't see it as being as morally complicated, fundamentally. The conflict is rooted in the legacy of empire, and the settler-colonialist logic that was part-and-parcel in how the British and French operated in the region. Using ethnic minorities as loyal pawns was just business as usual for British elites.
 
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rjs330

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People are being manipulated. The press in Gaza is under the control of Hamas. They are manipulating the photos. Propaganda at work.


 
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public hermit

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People are being manipulated. The press in Gaza is under the control of Hamas. They are manipulating the photos. Propaganda at work.



Let's see how the Hamas propaganda is working on AI:

Current Hunger Crisis in Gaza

Overview of the Situation

Gaza is facing a severe hunger crisis, with nearly 500,000 people experiencing famine-like conditions. The ongoing conflict and blockade have led to a catastrophic humanitarian situation, with essential services collapsing and food supplies critically low.

Impact on Children

  • Over 320,000 children under five are at risk of acute malnutrition.
  • Thousands are suffering from severe acute malnutrition, which is life-threatening.
  • Reports indicate that at least 16 children have died from hunger-related causes since mid-July.

Aid and Access Challenges

  • Humanitarian access is severely restricted, with aid convoys often obstructed or looted.
  • Only a fraction of the required aid is reaching the population; around 92 aid trucks entered Gaza recently, far below the estimated 500-600 needed daily.
  • The World Food Programme (WFP) has been delivering food assistance, but the scale is insufficient to meet the needs of the entire population.

Daily Struggles for Food

  • Many families are risking their lives to obtain food, facing violence and chaos during aid distributions.
  • One in three people in Gaza is going days without food, highlighting the desperation of the situation.
The crisis in Gaza is dire, with urgent calls for increased humanitarian aid and support to prevent further loss of life.

Wow, the power of Hamas is ubiquitous. They have the computers convinced. Amazing.
 
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rjs330

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Let's see how the Hamas propaganda is working on AI:

Current Hunger Crisis in Gaza

Overview of the Situation

Gaza is facing a severe hunger crisis, with nearly 500,000 people experiencing famine-like conditions. The ongoing conflict and blockade have led to a catastrophic humanitarian situation, with essential services collapsing and food supplies critically low.

Impact on Children

  • Over 320,000 children under five are at risk of acute malnutrition.
  • Thousands are suffering from severe acute malnutrition, which is life-threatening.
  • Reports indicate that at least 16 children have died from hunger-related causes since mid-July.

Aid and Access Challenges

  • Humanitarian access is severely restricted, with aid convoys often obstructed or looted.
  • Only a fraction of the required aid is reaching the population; around 92 aid trucks entered Gaza recently, far below the estimated 500-600 needed daily.
  • The World Food Programme (WFP) has been delivering food assistance, but the scale is insufficient to meet the needs of the entire population.

Daily Struggles for Food

  • Many families are risking their lives to obtain food, facing violence and chaos during aid distributions.
  • One in three people in Gaza is going days without food, highlighting the desperation of the situation.
The crisis in Gaza is dire, with urgent calls for increased humanitarian aid and support to prevent further loss of life.

Wow, the power of Hamas is ubiquitous. They have the computers convinced. Amazing.
Where do you think its pulling the information? From the same sources that are being used as propaganda for Hamas.

Cause AI ain't there.
 
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public hermit

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Where do you think its pulling the information? From the same sources that are being used as propaganda for Hamas.

Cause AI ain't there.

Let's imagine there's just a good probability that the reports are accurate. Isn't that enough for you? There are so many people suffering, and I wonder, what will it take for people to care? They don't have the luxury of acting like it's all fake news. None of us do, really, because we deny our own humanity in denying theirs.
"Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold."
 
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essentialsaltes

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People are being manipulated. The press in Gaza is under the control of Hamas.
Maybe Israel should allow journalists into Gaza.
 
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rjs330

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Let's imagine there's just a good probability that the reports are accurate.
Let's imagine they aren't. Let's imagine you are being manipulated by Hamas and the anti-Israel west.
There are so many people suffering,
Yes, civilians are the great casualties of war. Civilian deaths are the direct result of the evil in this world of those who started it. Sometimes the casualties are the result of their own actions of support of evil. In this case both are true. The Palestinians are not innocent here. They have known for many years who and what was going on. And many were part of Hamas and supported Hamas and taught their children to want to kill the Jews.
None of us do, really, because we deny our own humanity in denying theirs.
No one is denying their humanity. They denied the humanity of those they slaughtered on Oct 7.

This is an acknowledgement of the evil within the hearts of men and the consequences of fostering it and letting it grow and expand. Death and destruction is always the result of such wickedness.

Its ever been so in this fallen world.

He who lives by the sword, dies by the sword.

Now dont get me wrong, I do not support the deliberate killing of innocents or the deliberate starvation if people. But in this case I don't think Israel is doing that.
 
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public hermit

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Now dont get me wrong,

Why, would I have a reason to? It's too bad those poor folks can't eat your words. At least then, they might help.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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While I recognize some nuance, I don't see it as being as morally complicated, fundamentally. The conflict is rooted in the legacy of empire, and the settler-colonialist logic that was part-and-parcel in how the British and French operated in the region. Using ethnic minorities as loyal pawns was just business as usual for British elites.

What you're saying is true, but that's not a response to the locus about the Israeli social psychology that sits within the people of Israel, or Jews in general. Surely you understand what I'm saying when I imply that a person's ongoing, accumulated feelings (and trauma) of being a "minority," particularly a minority subject to literal attack from other people in close proximity, carries with it emotionally distraught freight that often derails a willingness to "work constructively" with those who are seen as enemies.

I'm not "explaining away" or excusing whatever social behavior and inclinations toward warfare we find among the peoples of the Near East; no what I'm saying is that it is very difficult to mediate and entreaty an entire nation that suffers from a form of psychosis and defensive trauma. Add to this ideological oppositions in religion and interpretations about what constitutes human significance and human rights, and we get...............................................what we see today, another manifestation of what has been already going on for the last 120 years or so.

It's tragic, all the way around. There's no doubt about that.

But when I say that I look at all of this from a historical, 'big picture angle,' the following clips----in full---and with more than just what these alone represent in mind in as wholistic of an analysis as may be possible, are what I'm referring to. It's beyond simply the historical instrumentalism that has evidently been used by nations of the West in the procurement of positioning of political interest in the Middle East:



Like I said, it's tragic, all the way around. Unfortunately, sometimes public psychosis and trauma brought on by war or by having been repeatedly attacked in ongoing episodes over many years prevent people from choosing to conduct more humanitarian, let alone fully Christian, modes of ameliorating social or international conflict.

Obviously, the World needs Jesus Christ.
 
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rjs330

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I 100% recognize there are no good actors.
I also believe there is nothing that will solve this problem.

Alli want is an honest discussion about how terribly Israel treats gazans...and I'm nor even talking about human shield deaths foe which the responsibility for deaths is shared.

I'm talking about patrols that randomly break children's arms. I'm talking about children getting sniped at food distribution points; I'm talking about video bloggers sitting on a sea wall getting shot for no reason. Just acknowledging these things happen, bit rhey can't even do that. Gazans cannot be believed.

And maybe I'm fighting foe the idea that you can believe Muslim person when discussing Israel.

https://apnews.com/article/israel-p...uman-shields-80f358dd2c87a1123f26ffada159701c



Yes.

If the shoe fits.
I don't like what the Isrealis did in t hat video. The difference is though that Hamas uses the human shields to fight behind and set up ambushes. They use them to hide in and to headquarter in. Those Isrealis were in full uniform and didn't march up the street shooting people from behind him. They didn't set him up as a citizen and then shoot people who walked up to him. Look at that guy. He still has a shop. He is still selling things. He's healthy and you see lots of people just walking around. The Isrealis didn't mow him down or anyone else.

Your clip isn't as damning as you think. In fact it paints the picture pretty clearly that there IS a difference between Israel and Hamas.
 
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rambot

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I don't like what the Isrealis did in t hat video. The difference is though that Hamas uses the human shields to fight behind and set up ambushes. They use them to hide in and to headquarter in. Those Isrealis were in full uniform and didn't march up the street shooting people from behind him. They didn't set him up as a citizen and then shoot people who walked up to him. Look at that guy. He still has a shop. He is still selling things. He's healthy and you see lots of people just walking around. The Isrealis didn't mow him down or anyone else.

Your clip isn't as damning as you think. In fact it paints the picture pretty clearly that there IS a difference between Israel and Hamas.
Ok. There's a new low on Christian Forums.

A poster seems to have no ethical peoblem with using human shields IF you are an Israeli soldier Wearing bullet proof metal plates and hide behind a Gazan. That is OK.

Not only that but when hamas DOESNT shoot the gazan, the IDF gets the praise because rhey didnt shoot that PARTICULAR random citicitizen.

Disgusting.

Tell me again how you hate hamas and want what's best for gazan citizens..... actually...I don't wanna hear it anymore. It's clear you just want Israel to have the latitude to do what it feels it needs to.
 
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rjs330

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A poster seems to have no ethical peoblem with using human shields IF you are an Israeli soldier Wearing bullet proof metal plates and hide behind a Gazan.

Perhaps you should take that back. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you simply misread what I said.

Here's what I actually said:

I don't like what the Isrealis did in t hat video.

so clearly I am NOT okay with that.


Not only that but when hamas DOESNT shoot the gazan, the IDF gets the praise because rhey didnt shoot that PARTICULAR random citicitizen.
Tell.me how many people the Israelis shot while hiding behind that Gazan? How many did they shoot at?

I will help you. Zero.

Totally different than Hamas. Its disgusting to associate them as rhe same.

Anti-semetic rhetoric.
 
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rambot

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Perhaps you should take that back. I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here that you simply misread what I said.

Here's what I actually said:

I don't like what the Isrealis did in t hat video.

so clearly I am NOT okay with that.
Now here may be where your communication style needs work...and has a Trumpian flavour.

You write one sentence saying one thing and a whole post justifying the opposite.


Ethically you give absolutely no indication that you find Israel's bwhaviour problematic as tou justify each part of how they carries out rheir action qith no specific condemnation for any particular act.

you even point out that the guy is still alive and working so he's a ok (implying at least a "non harm, no foul" vibe.)

So while in your head you may believe you have a peoblem with Israel's actions, you did spend the whole just justifying them. And that will leads to people maybe
misunderstanding you.
 
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