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Was ordinary and natural family a threat ?

peter2

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Hello.
i wonder whether ordinary and natural family still exists, with ordinary and natural christian values.
In France, at least, i have the sensation it's almost disappeared..
If i'm right, it looks like there was a plan to destroy it. (another kind of conspiracy theory, yes)
What is your idea about it, please ?
 

DragonFox91

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In what way has it disappeared. The basic family structure is pretty universal across all cultures & time periods. I guess it’s true one way they try to destroy it here in the United States is get rid of the father.
 
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peter2

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In what way has it disappeared. The basic family structure is pretty universal across all cultures & time periods. I guess it’s true one way they try to destroy it here in the United States is get rid of the father.
Thank you for your answer. i meant a christian family structure
Actually i intended to create another thread, but your response encouraged me to write it here :


It's about the younger son of the parable that left his father.
What did he expect to find in a far country, that would be best for him than all the goods he enjoyed at his father's ?
How did such dream spring in his mind that the best was far from his father.
His home coming back yet was expected from the father.
So. What have switched over from the initial to the final situation of the younger son, apart from a false dream disillusionned ?

Seems to me, then, that happiness lies in not dreaming, in the love of the Father, first
 
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DragonFox91

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What he wanted to him was billed as fun or fulfilling. In the end, it only led to ruin. Staying with his father required obedience, discipline, work, probably most of the time he felt like he was losing
 
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peter2

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What he wanted to him was billed as fun or fulfilling. In the end, it only led to ruin. Staying with his father required obedience, discipline, work, probably most of the time he felt like he was losing
i had not think of that. True
 
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d taylor

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Thank you for your answer. i meant a christian family structure
Actually i intended to create another thread, but your response encouraged me to write it here :


It's about the younger son of the parable that left his father.
What did he expect to find in a far country, that would be best for him than all the goods he enjoyed at his father's ?
How did such dream spring in his mind that the best was far from his father.
His home coming back yet was expected from the father.
So. What have switched over from the initial to the final situation of the younger son, apart from a false dream disillusionned ?

Seems to me, then, that happiness lies in not dreaming, in the love of the Father, first
-
You know the parable is not actually about a father and son. But about God and born again children, one that left to pursue worldly pleasures and another son who got mad because God welcomed His wayward born again child back with open arms when he repented.
 
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peter2

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You know the parable is not actually about a father and son. But about God and born again children, one that left to pursue worldly pleasures and another son who got mad because God welcomed His wayward born again child back with open arms when he repented.
They may gaze at this aspect of the Parable, true.

Yet, the fatherly identity of .. the father.. , the filial bond, matter too, in my view.
Indeed, are not born again children born again through their seeking a fatherly God ?

Otherwise, would the repenting son have easily made remembrance of Him and of his fatherly love, when with the swines ?
 
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d taylor

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They may gaze at this aspect of the Parable, true.

Yet, the fatherly identity of .. the father.. , the filial bond, matter too, in my view.
Indeed, are not born again children born again through their seeking a fatherly God ?

Otherwise, would the repenting son have easily made remembrance of Him and of his fatherly love, when with the swines ?
-

People are born again when they believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. at the very moment of their belief in Jesus they become a pernamnet born again child of God.
 
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peter2

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People are born again when they believe in Jesus for God's free gift of Eternal Life. at the very moment of their belief in Jesus they become a pernamnet born again child of God.
I just meant, and propose it's through the heart those born again people come to believe in God. But to make the heart able to recognize our God, it requires our God, and, above all, his goodness
 
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timf

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The last 2,000 years of human history (including the damage to families) is just the result of Satan guiding the world into collective hierarchies so that he can leverage his influence. One might imagine that he used Western Civilization to develop the technology to aid in his attempt to control everyone. Now that he seems close to having the pieces in place to make his move, the last step would be to have us weaken ourselves so that we couldn't oppose his strategy. Here is an interest book, "The Satanic History of the World;

free pdf https://christianpioneer.com/videos/ebooks/Satanic_history_of_the_world_v1.pdf

web pages Christian Pioneer - The Satanic History of the World
 
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peter2

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Thank you, timf, for the reference of the book.

I don't know, however, how relevant it is to study satan 'strategy. Shouldn't we remain focused on Jesus and on his victory, rather than give importance to someone that's perhaps just trying to catch attention, even, why not (?), through his strategy.

Indeed, i don't perceive where, in the Scriptures, Jesus would have himself initiated or elaborated some strategy against the ennemy.

Always in my own perception, all Light of Truth came rather through the lamb accepting his tortures, allowing the satanic strategic underhandedness to turn perceptible, from imperceptible that it was before.
We too, christians, should may be behave likewise (like lambs) so as to enlighten satanic malevolence.

Sorry if my understanding lacks too much relevance to be displayed as i do. Note, please, i don't speak affirmatively, yet
 
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timf

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I am not suggesting a "study" of Satan. Rather that we be not unaware of his schemes.

2Co_2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices.

By observing the strategy of an enemy, we can see how many resources he allocates to a particular point of attack and deduce how important it is to him. For example, Consider how many TV shows and before that radio shows were designed to make fathers seem stupid, ignorant, and in need of correction. Armed with this sort of knowledge we might be able to counter these sort of worldly influences or try to avoid them.
 
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peter2

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I am not suggesting a "study" of Satan. Rather that we be not unaware of his schemes.

2Co_2:11 Lest Satan should get an advantage of us: for we are not ignorant of his devices
French does not propose the same translation. Instead of "devices", i read :"intention" I don't know which is the best translation.
But i wonder whether you're not right to try and know both (be it devices or be it intention) Because after all, Jesus probably knew about them both
By observing the strategy of an enemy, we can see how many resources he allocates to a particular point of attack and deduce how important it is to him. For example, Consider how many TV shows and before that radio shows were designed to make fathers seem stupid, ignorant, and in need of correction. Armed with this sort of knowledge we might be able to counter these sort of worldly influences or try to avoid them.
Actually, i didn't make myself these observations.
i think mothers or women too bore much discrediting humor in TV shows.
May be could i agree to say parenthood was aimed at, it's true it's enough to destroy families credit.

Your analysis makes TV responsible for downgrading reputations of fatherhood.
I think it's likely the same for the entire parenthood.

My conclusion is obvious : It's better when wives ans husbands are able to unite to forbide children to watch TV for some times. For yes, TV is one possible origin of the damage in families relationships
 
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stevevw

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You hit on what I think is a fundemental aspect of Christianity which is the 'Father' and the 'Mother' for that matter. But the father was a primarily role and representation of Gods divine nature both spiritually and naturally. The same with the mother. Each cannot fullfill the others role in impostant aspects that I think are imprinted in us.

This is also seen in marriage and how man and women were created for each other and how Christ mentions that they become one flesh in marriage and that what God has jined in marriage let no one seperate.

I think this imprint has been seen throughout history but especially with the Hebrews and early Christians where the father was the head of the family. I think this authority was necessarily and part of Gods order. Just like Christ made Himself subject to His Father and obeyed Him.

But modern ideas have undermined this as oppression. Though there may be some justification that this Godly family has been abused this doesn't I think change the structure God has placed within His order for us.

Since the mid 20th century I think theres been a concerted effort to socially engineer marriage and families through feminism and egalitarianism which has undermined and destroyed the value of the traditional family.

This has led to a breakdown in society and caused many problems. Not to mention the idea that a that each sex can play the opposite role just as effectively as the innate parent. This to justify that single and SS parenting is a valid and natural variation of the family.

Along with the rise in divorce and extended families and the rise of de facto relationships this has made traditional marriage and families as just one variation and even an outdated and oppressive one.
 
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peter2

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Hello Steve.
i feel the same for many things you say.
The main difference may generally be that in non traditional families, a certain permissiveness has been enforced as regards sex or, habits and customs, that didn't run in traditional ones.

Thence two consequences :
first,
Non traditional families thus combed their children in this sense that don't displease them.
They kept then their children' esteem, or "bought" thus their attachment, since traditional families taught theirs to wait for marrying, sex, etc..,
which might look like an abusive forbidding from these traditional families..

Second,
Young people don't learn patience and respect for the person of the other gender, since they already get what they had once to wait for.
They no longer learn effort to win the affection of their beloved, neither do they for work
 
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stevevw

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Hello Steve.
i feel the same for many things you say.
The main difference may generally be that in non traditional families, a certain permissiveness has been enforced as regards sex or, habits and customs, that didn't run in traditional ones.

Thence two consequences :
first,
Non traditional families thus combed their children in this sense that don't displease them.
They kept then their children' esteem, or "bought" thus their attachment, since traditional families taught theirs to wait for marrying, sex, etc..,
which might look like an abusive forbidding from these traditional families..

Second,
Young people don't learn patience and respect for the person of the other gender, since they already get what they had once to wait for.
They no longer learn effort to win the affection of their beloved, neither do they for work
I think this general lack of respect for authority is a cultural phenomena and not something individuals or families have created. Its just how they were brought up within the culture. So by a couple of generations we can have a completely different worldview.

I see this as two competing worldviews about how the world and reality is ordered. One is based on Gods natural order and laws and the other is based on human made ideas.

Human made ideas make humans the gods and creators and the modern secular ideas about what is marriage, family and relationshios is a human made worldview that specifically is designed to deny Gods truth. Because ackowledging God means acknowledging His authority and natural order.

So ideas about how we should order ourselves as far as the natural family is about a belief. Two opposing and conflicting beliefs.
 
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peter2

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I think this general lack of respect for authority is a cultural phenomena and not something individuals or families have created. Its just how they were brought up within the culture. So by a couple of generations we can have a completely different worldview.

I see this as two competing worldviews about how the world and reality is ordered. One is based on Gods natural order and laws and the other is based on human made ideas.
You are not wrong.
i was just focusing on real life situations and trying to make like a kind of magnifying glass before these cultural phenomena.
For i heard some persons of some parties, in recent election in France, speak of the family relationships as dangers to be destroyed.
Human made ideas make humans the gods and creators and the modern secular ideas about what is marriage, family and relationshios is a human made worldview that specifically is designed to deny Gods truth. Because ackowledging God means acknowledging His authority and natural order.
As for God's order, i stand a bit wary for a handful of men can also interpret His Word for everybody. I'm not so cautious with the idea of natural order, for every body may have its own feeling over it
 
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peter2

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One of the best destroying for traditional families remains in my view likely when counterfeit traditional families, gathered like behind a showcase, surround the true one, pretending to be like the true one.
It would be particularly inequal if the children of counterfeit families propose affection or more to the children of true ones.
Thus morally or generally decay a society : In short : through pulsions, far from traditional values

Yes, Steve, it' a man made and twisted conception of family that prevails since the two sort of families play opposite games.

But i'm afraid bets are already made and the fate of traditional family already doomed.
Indeed, whoever young people, in our society, would still be courageous enough to wait for quenching pulsions ? Even with religious background, temptation is so strong..

All, in my view, is a question of waiting for love or of not waiting
 
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stevevw

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You are not wrong.
i was just focusing on real life situations and trying to make like a kind of magnifying glass before these cultural phenomena.
For i heard some persons of some parties, in recent election in France, speak of the family relationships as dangers to be destroyed.
I think France has a history of being liberal. Look at the opening ceremony of the olympics lol. I think this represents the new norm and world order ushered in by ideologues in recent decades. The idea that the traditional family is a threat to equality and human rights.

Its the same idea when it is said that those who support traditional marriage as opposed to SSM are bigots when this was suppose to be a legal and rightful belief among many alternative views. As those all views were welcome except one.

It use to be God and the bible were the norms and then it became an accepted alternative among a growing number of beliefs under multiculturalism. All the alternative beliefs, political views and perspectives were acceptable under this new world order.

But now it seems that only certain beliefs and views are acceptable. Gods law and order and Christs truths have gone from the norm to now being something that promotes hate.
As for God's order, i stand a bit wary for a handful of men can also interpret His Word for everybody. I'm not so cautious with the idea of natural order, for every body may have its own feeling over it
Yes and rightfully so as there has been a lot of abuses.

Unfortunately I think this is one of satans greatest weapons to use against God. There is a fine line between authority being used within God and that taken and used for other reasons. None the less I think that there is also a sharp and destinct line within Gods laws and order and especially in Christs teachings which are elaborated on by the disciples.

A lot of the problems I think is that so musch compromise has been introduced that it makes it hard to destinguish the clear line. Because part of the compromise is that Gods word itself has been compromised. But also that people can use the compromise to discredit Gods word and thus thise standing on it.

But still I believe that all the answers are within scriptures and anyone who does abuse or compromises authority it can be revealed and exposed by scripture. So I think most of the issues of abuses of authority are not the end results. They are the symptons.

The issue is that the parts of the teachings which speak to qualifying a leader and the church itself which is to be Christlike have not been followed in the first place. Its not that the scriptures are wrong. But their application or lack there of by humans is wrong.

We can find all the qualifications in the teachings and the fruits they should display. Which can be used by the whole church as a measure and identifyer of abusing authority in the church community.

It seems quite obvious to me if there is the kind of authority the bible teaches which is needed to protect against the abuse of authority that there is nothing in them that will cause abuse of authority and in fact is a check and balance to prevent it.

To actually produce the exact opposite the kind of leaders who will lay down their lives as part of that authority. Just as Christ did.
 
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peter2

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But now it seems that only certain beliefs and views are acceptable. Gods law and order and Christs truths have gone from the norm to now being something that promotes hate.
I believe it's mentionned somewhere in the Scriptures that a time would come when men will call the evil good, and vice versa.
May be we are in these times. I 'm consequently a bit fatalistic
Yes and rightfully so as there has been a lot of abuses.

Unfortunately I think this is one of satans greatest weapons to use against God. There is a fine line between authority being used within God and that taken and used for other reasons. None the less I think that there is also a sharp and destinct line within Gods laws and order and especially in Christs teachings which are elaborated on by the disciples.

A lot of the problems I think is that so musch compromise has been introduced that it makes it hard to destinguish the clear line. Because part of the compromise is that Gods word itself has been compromised. But also that people can use the compromise to discredit Gods word and thus thise standing on it.

But still I believe that all the answers are within scriptures and anyone who does abuse or compromises authority it can be revealed and exposed by scripture. So I think most of the issues of abuses of authority are not the end results. They are the symptons.

The issue is that the parts of the teachings which speak to qualifying a leader and the church itself which is to be Christlike have not been followed in the first place. Its not that the scriptures are wrong. But their application or lack there of by humans is wrong.

We can find all the qualifications in the teachings and the fruits they should display. Which can be used by the whole church as a measure and identifyer of abusing authority in the church community.

It seems quite obvious to me if there is the kind of authority the bible teaches which is needed to protect against the abuse of authority that there is nothing in them that will cause abuse of authority and in fact is a check and balance to prevent it.

To actually produce the exact opposite the kind of leaders who will lay down their lives as part of that authority. Just as Christ did.
Sorry, however fortunate looks the perspective, i remain wary. As catholic, i wonder how worldly is our clergy, so i wouldn't be confident in giving it carte blanche. I don't know about other confessions, but i think they may find worldly spirit in most
 
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