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No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

A New Dawn

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This has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe, so you're addressing a strawman here. I don't claim that people have to do enough to be saved, whatever that even means. I claim that you need to keep being careful not to lose your faith and to keep trusting in Jesus, just as the following warns to do:

Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,


You are deceived by Calvinism. It leads to a false sense of security. You went from one false extreme (thinking you had to do a bunch of things to stay saved) to another (thinking you have to do nothing to stay saved).

Calvinism makes warnings that are given to believers like we see in Hebrews 3:12-14 into a joke that can be ignored. But, it's not. You don't have to do enough to be saved as if salvation is by works, but you do need to beware of developing "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" and you do need to "hold the beginnning of" your "confidence steadfast to the end". You can't just ignore scripture like Hebrews 3:12-14. That can lead to complacency and thinking that you have no responsibility when the reality is that you do have responsibility. Not to earn your own salvation, but to keep trusting in Christ for your salvation and being careful not to allow yourself to be deceived.
Salvation is God's gift. You misrepresenting what Calvinism teaches does not mean anything because it's just hateful words you use because you dislike it. Hebrews 3:12-14 describes perfectly what the P in TULIP stands for. Perseverance of the saints. So, why don't you just stop misrepresenting something because sometime, someone told you it meant something else. Perhaps, go study it so you actually know what it says/means before accosting people with lies again.
 
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zoidar

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I am utilizing a site called Blue Letter Bible ( blueletterbible.org ) because it has commentaries as well as Strong's concordance, and other useful accessories. I am saying this because I want you to know I am not relying on my own personal made-up belief when I say these things, but that I read many sources (not all that I agree with) to come up with my personal belief, and in this matter, they all agree with me, or, more importantly, they all agree with each other, and I with them. The law is not mentioned by any of them. But I'm leaving it here so you can check it out to see what's being said by the biggest scholars.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

I'm first going to post the Biblical usage of the word translated as "works" from Strong's.
  1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
    1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
  2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
  3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work
Now I am going to post some commentary responses to this verse. I'll even stay away from the obvious Reformed/Calvinist theologians.

From David Guzik :
a. If by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace: Paul left the previous verse noting that the remnant was chosen according to the election of grace. Now he reminds us what grace is by definition: the free gift of God, not given with an eye to performance or potential in the one receiving, but given only out of kindness in the giver.


b. If it is of works, it is no longer grace: As principles, grace and works don’t go together. If giving is of grace, it cannot be of works, and if it is of works, it cannot be of grace.

From Chuck Smith: We're accepted by God either by our works or by grace; it cannot be both

From Matthew Henry: Whence it takes its rise, from the free grace of God (v. 6), that grace which excludes works. The eternal election, in which the difference between some and others is first founded, is purely of grace, free grace; not for the sake of works done or foreseen; if so, it would not be grace. Gratia non est ullo modo gratia, si non sit omni modo gratuita-It is not grace, properly so called, if it be not perfectly free. Election is purely according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5. Paul's heart was so full of the freeness of God's grace that in the midst of his discourse he turns aside, as it were, to make this remark, If of grace, then not of works. And some observe that faith itself, which in the matter of justification if opposed to works, is here included in them; for faith has a peculiar fitness to receive the free grace of God for our justification, but not to receive that grace for our election.

From Bill Acton:
  • Grace Cannot Be Mixed with Anything – Expressly Works or Merit
    1. If there is a mix – there is no more grace
    2. If there is merit – works, deserving – there is no grace
  • Works Cannot Be Mixed with Grace
    1. If grace is introduced alongside works then there is no more works
    2. If there is any undeserving favor given then there is no more works
From David Brown: "Now if it (the election) be by grace, it is no more of works; for [then] grace becomes no more grace: but if it be of works," &c. (The authority of ancient manuscripts against this latter clause, as superfluous and not originally in the text, though strong, is not sufficient, we think, to justify its exclusion. Such seeming redundancies are not unusual with our apostle). The general position here laid down is of vital importance: That there are but two possible sources of salvation--men's works, and God's grace; and that these are so essentially distinct and opposite, that salvation cannot be of any combination or mixture of both, but must be wholly either of the one or of the other.
I agree with the scholars you quoted "if it is by works it's not by grace". I think I have said that in my previous posts as well. I'm quite sure none of the scholars you quoted believe faith, repentance or confessing being a sinner is a work. I think you need to go to the far Calvinistic camp to find scholars who agree with you on this.
 
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Brightfame52

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So coming to Christ, believing in Him is impossible unless its given to a man, which corresponds to being drawn by the Father, this confirms the understanding that Faith to believe in Christ for Salvation is the Gift of God Eph 2:8 , its through and by powerful grace, and not by the ability of mans freewill. 12
 
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Brightfame52

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Where did He say He only calls the elect to repentance? Nowhere. The context of that passage from Mark 2 is that Jesus was dining with a bunch of tax collectors and sinners in Levi's house. The Pharisees questioned why He was doing that, thinking that they were not worth His time and attention. But, it was because He wanted them to repent and be saved. But, you deny that.
It doesnt have to say it, its a truth in scripture, God has an elect, and they are sinners, duh
 
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A New Dawn

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I agree with the scholars you quoted "if it is by works it's not by grace". I think I have said that in my previous posts as well. I'm quite sure none of the scholars you quoted believe faith, repentance or confessing being a sinner is a work. I think you need to go to the far Calvinistic camp to find scholars who agree with you on this.
Your claim was that ‘works’ necessarily meant “works of the law” and you quoted some guy who agreed with your position on that matter. My post with commentaries was to indicate that that is not true. Your position is contrary to most of Christianity in that assumption.

And the difference between what you are saying and what they (the commentaries I quoted) are saying is that your salvation isn’t valid/complete until you decide to accept it. What they are saying is that their salvation is complete when God did His part, what they are doing is responding to being saved.
 
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ThatDumbChicken

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It doesnt have to say it, its a truth in scripture, God has an elect, and they are sinners, duh

God does have an elect:

Old Testament = Jews
New Testament = Believing Gentiles

Election is about a group, not a specific person.

Context of Romans is important.
 
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Brightfame52

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Your claim was that ‘works’ necessarily meant “works of the law” and you quoted some guy who agreed with your position on that matter. My post with commentaries was to indicate that that is not true. Your position is contrary to most of Christianity in that assumption.

And the difference between what you are saying and what they (the commentaries I quoted) are saying is that your salvation isn’t valid/complete until you decide to accept it. What they are saying is that their salvation is complete when God did His part, what they are doing is responding to being saved.
Deciding to accept something, is a work !

Salvation is God’s to give, not man’s to take. Salvation is by grace alone, therefore, it cannot be merited, which means no man can do anything to get it, to be rewarded with it, which means it cannot be something which is offered.

 
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Brightfame52

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God does have an elect:

Old Testament = Jews
New Testament = Believing Gentiles

Election is about a group, not a specific person.

Context of Romans is important.
False comment, also that's the only people Jesus calls to repentance, the elect. And those He calls to repentance, He gives it to them causing it Acts 5:31

31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

Israel here is not ethnic national israel, but Spiritual Israel, jew and gentile elect
 
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zoidar

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Your claim was that ‘works’ necessarily meant “works of the law” and you quoted some guy who agreed with your position on that matter. My post with commentaries was to indicate that that is not true. Your position is contrary to most of Christianity in that assumption.

And the difference between what you are saying and what they (the commentaries I quoted) are saying is that your salvation isn’t valid/complete until you decide to accept it. What they are saying is that their salvation is complete when God did His part, what they are doing is responding to being saved.
I quoted Barnes to show you it's not strange to understand "works" in Romans 11:6 as "works of the Law". I'm sure we have more scholars who agree with this. I don't think "works" necessarily always means "works of the Law".

Let's say you are right Romans 11:6 should be understood as works generally, still are repentance, confessing being a sinner and faith not works.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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It doesnt have to say it, its a truth in scripture, God has an elect, and they are sinners, duh
Are you using your parents' computer without their permission, kid?
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Deciding to accept something, is a work !
Maybe in the sense that it's something someone does mentally, but not in the sense of the type of works that don't result in salvation (Eph 2:8-9). You won't find any scripture to support that idea.
 
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Brightfame52

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Maybe in the sense that it's something someone does mentally, but not in the sense of the type of works that don't result in salvation (Eph 2:8-9). You won't find any scripture to support that idea.
So its a work, which cancels out grace salvation, sorry
 
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Spiritual Jew

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Salvation is God's gift.
That He offers to all people.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

The parable in Matthew 22:1-13 also portrays salvation as something that is offered to all people and is figuratively represented as being invited to a wedding in order to be wed to Christ.

You misrepresenting what Calvinism teaches does not mean anything because it's just hateful words you use because you dislike it.
What am I misrepresenting in relation to what Calvinism teaches exactly? Be specific.

Hebrews 3:12-14 describes perfectly what the P in TULIP stands for. Perseverance of the saints.
Hardly! Did you even read the text? That passage shows that it's possible for a saint (believer, Christian) to turn away from God and that's why it warns us about it. That does not represent the P in TULIP. None of the doctrines in TULIP can be supported by scripture.

So, why don't you just stop misrepresenting something because sometime, someone told you it meant something else. Perhaps, go study it so you actually know what it says/means before accosting people with lies again.
You are saying I'm supposedly misrepresenting Calvinism, but you didn't bother to say how. So, tell me how I'm doing that. I don't believe I am.
 
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Spiritual Jew

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So its a work, which cancels out grace salvation, sorry
Wrong. Faith is contrasted with works in Ephesians 2:8-9. Why do you just ignore that? When Paul said salvation is not by works, he obviously wasn't talking about faith because he said salvation IS through faith. But, NOT by works. So, faith isn't a work in that sense. That's why when the jailer asked Paul and Silas what he needed to do to be saved, they didn't answer that there was nothing he could do, as you would answer if you were consistent with your doctrine. Instead, they said "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved—you and your household.” (Acts 16:30-31).
 
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Spiritual Jew

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False comment, also that's the only people Jesus calls to repentance, the elect.
Wrong. Jesus said He calls sinners to repentance, not the elect (Mark 2:16-17). All people are sinners (Romans 3:23), so He calls all people to repentance. That fits with the fact that God commands all people everywhere to repent (Acts 17:30). You are butchering scripture to make it fit your doctrine.
 
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A New Dawn

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Maybe in the sense that it's something someone does mentally, but not in the sense of the type of works that don't result in salvation (Eph 2:8-9). You won't find any scripture to support that idea.
The issue is if you have to accept it in order for it to be valid, then, yes it is a work. ANY stipulation you set that you have to do yourself is a work.
 
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A New Dawn

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That He offers to all people.

Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people.

The parable in Matthew 22:1-13 also portrays salvation as something that is offered to all people and is figuratively represented as being invited to a wedding in order to be wed to Christ.


What am I misrepresenting in relation to what Calvinism teaches exactly? Be specific.


Hardly! Did you even read the text? That passage shows that it's possible for a saint (believer, Christian) to turn away from God and that's why it warns us about it. That does not represent the P in TULIP. None of the doctrines in TULIP can be supported by scripture.


You are saying I'm supposedly misrepresenting Calvinism, but you didn't bother to say how. So, tell me how I'm doing that. I don't believe I am.
What do you think perseverance of the saints means?
I quoted Barnes to show you it's not strange to understand "works" in Romans 11:6 as "works of the Law". I'm sure we have more scholars who agree with this. I don't think "works" necessarily always means "works of the Law".

Let's say you are right Romans 11:6 should be understood as works generally, still are repentance, confessing being a sinner and faith not works.
They are responses.
 
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