No person can come to Christ by their own freewill !

zoidar said:

Salvation is certainly not by works, but by grace and faith, though I don't know what that has to do with free will.

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If you have to do something, anything (which includes accepting it or rejecting it), that makes it a work.

Brightfame52 said:

Where does the Faith come from ? Whats its source ?

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Good question! A person needs to be convicted in order to repent. Why some people are convicted while others aren't (there are probably tons of different reasons) is a mystery known only to God. Faith however is the gift of God bestowed by His grace after repentance. The source of faith is God Himself, through the Holy Spirit.

A New Dawn said:

If you have to do something, anything (which includes accepting it or rejecting it), that makes it a work.

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Where do you find that in Paul's writings (or elsewhere)?

Brightfame52 said:

Okay so if its a gift of grace, its not given to everyone correct ? Just the election of Grace right ? Also what's the source of repentance ?

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I've never heard the term "election of grace" before ... God is the source of conviction and repentance, though I believe conviction can be resisted. The gift of grace, which is the Holy Spirit (and faith) is only given those who repent.

zoidar said:

Where do you find that in Paul's writings (or elsewhere)?

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I quoted it to you (from Romans) in post 738.

Free will forces you to be a participant in your own salvation by having to decide whether you want to accept it or reject it. And that pulls it out of the realm of grace.

zoidar said:

Where do you find that in Paul's writings (or elsewhere)?

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How about:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

Brightfame52 said:

@zoidar



Then let me introduce you to it Rom 11:5-6

5 Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

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I normally don't read KJV.

David Lamb said:

How about:

“8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” (Eph 2:8-10 NKJV)

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Paul is contrasting faith with works of the Law. Whether we can acknowledge we are sinners in need of God's help or not is not really discussed here. You can hardly say someone can boast in admitting the need of help.

For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law.
— Romans 3:28

A New Dawn said:

I quoted it to you (from Romans) in post 738.

Free will forces you to be a participant in your own salvation by having to decide whether you want to accept it or reject it. And that pulls it out of the realm of grace.

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Romans 11:5-6 is contrasting grace with works (of the Law) much like in Eph 2:8-9. It says we are saved by grace and not by works of the Law (not by human effort). Paul is not explaining exactly what grace entails, if we can accept being sinners in need of mercy or not. Also look at the reason in Romans 9:30-32, why the Jews didn't receive grace.

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
— Romans 11:5-6

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:30-32

zoidar said:

Romans 11:5-6 is contrasting grace with works (of the Law) much like in Eph 2:8-9. It says we are saved by grace and not by works of the Law (not by human effort). Paul is not explaining exactly what grace entails, if we can accept being sinners in need of mercy or not. Also look at the reason in Romans 9:30-32, why the Jews didn't receive grace.

In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God’s gracious choice. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.
— Romans 11:5-6

For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.
— Ephesians 2:8-9

What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith; but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,
— Romans 9:30-32

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You misconstrue the idea of works as spoken about in scripture written to the gentiles as necessarily referring only to the Mosaic law. That is not the case. Any time someone throws a conditional response needed to make their salvation valid, that is retreating to the arena of salvation by works.

The scriptures we (and you) quoted don’t say “works of the law”. You are adding “of the law” yourself. The scriptures say “works”. Period. Maybe if you read the scriptures as written, you’ll understand them the way you are supposed to understand them.

zoidar said:

I normally don't read KJV.

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Doesn’t matter which version you read, they all say the same thing. The link YOU included for the same scripture passage in your response to me from the NKJV says the same thing as the one you said you didn’t normally read.

A New Dawn said:

You misconstrue the idea of works as spoken about in scripture written to the gentiles as necessarily referring only to the Mosaic law. That is not the case. Any time someone throws a conditional response needed to make their salvation valid, that is retreating to the arena of salvation by works.

The scriptures we (and you) quoted don’t say “works of the law”. You are adding “of the law” yourself. The scriptures say “works”. Period. Maybe if you read the scriptures as written, you’ll understand them the way you are supposed to understand them.

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Would you say that to Albert Barnes, who was a Presbyterian btw? He agrees with me Paul is referring to "works of the Law" in Romans 11:6.

"Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And if grace ... - If the fact that any are reserved be by grace, or favor, then it cannot be as a reward of merit. Paul thus takes occasion incidentally to combat a favorite notion of the Jews, that we are justified by obedience to the Law. He reminds them that in the time of Elijah it was because God had reserved them; that the same was the case now; and therefore their doctrine of merit could not be true; see Romans 4:4-5; Galatians 5:4; Ephesians 2:8-9."

"But if it be of works ... - "Works" here mean conformity to the Law; and to be saved by works would be to be saved by such conformity as the meritorious cause. Of course there could be no grace or favor in giving what was due: if there was favor, or grace, then works would lose their essential characteristic, and cease to be the meritorious cause of procuring the blessings. What is paid as a debt is not conferred as a favor."

A New Dawn said:

I used to be one of those free agency believers, I don’t have to imagine for the sake of argument. I spent my days in despair because, while I had had a salvation experience, it was not something my church taught so I couldn’t admit it or claim it, and I was in so much fear that I could lose my salvation on a daily basis because I could never do enough to stay saved.

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This has absolutely nothing to do with what I believe, so you're addressing a strawman here. I don't claim that people have to do enough to be saved, whatever that even means. I claim that you need to keep being careful not to lose your faith and to keep trusting in Jesus, just as the following warns to do:

Hebrews 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; 13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called “Today,” lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,

A New Dawn said:

The person who finally threw me a life preserver introduced me to the proper way to read the scriptures to know that salvation was God’s to give and nobodies to take away from me because He keeps me safe. So, I still say NO! Free will is a work of Satan, and only makes you live in fear. When I finally broke free from that cursed theology, I finally felt free and was free.

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You are deceived by Calvinism. It leads to a false sense of security. You went from one false extreme (thinking you had to do a bunch of things to stay saved) to another (thinking you have to do nothing to stay saved).

Calvinism makes warnings that are given to believers like we see in Hebrews 3:12-14 into a joke that can be ignored. But, it's not. You don't have to do enough to be saved as if salvation is by works, but you do need to beware of developing "an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God" and you do need to "hold the beginnning of" your "confidence steadfast to the end". You can't just ignore scripture like Hebrews 3:12-14. That can lead to complacency and thinking that you have no responsibility when the reality is that you do have responsibility. Not to earn your own salvation, but to keep trusting in Christ for your salvation and being careful not to allow yourself to be deceived.

Brightfame52 said:

In case you didn't know the elect are naturally sinners, Jesus came to call them to repentance.

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Where did He say He only calls the elect to repentance? Nowhere. The context of that passage from Mark 2 is that Jesus was dining with a bunch of tax collectors and sinners in Levi's house. The Pharisees questioned why He was doing that, thinking that they were not worth His time and attention. But, it was because He wanted them to repent and be saved. But, you deny that.

zoidar said:

Would you say that to Albert Barnes, who was a Presbyterian btw? He agrees with me Paul is referring to "works of the Law" in Romans 11:6.

"Romans 11:6
And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

And if grace ... - If the fact that any are reserved be by grace, or favor, then it cannot be as a reward of merit. Paul thus takes occasion incidentally to combat a favorite notion of the Jews, that we are justified by obedience to the Law. He reminds them that in the time of Elijah it was because God had reserved them; that the same was the case now; and therefore their doctrine of merit could not be true; see Romans 4:4-5; Galatians 5:4; Ephesians 2:8-9."

"But if it be of works ... - "Works" here mean conformity to the Law; and to be saved by works would be to be saved by such conformity as the meritorious cause. Of course there could be no grace or favor in giving what was due: if there was favor, or grace, then works would lose their essential characteristic, and cease to be the meritorious cause of procuring the blessings. What is paid as a debt is not conferred as a favor."

Romans 11 Barnes' Notes

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I am utilizing a site called Blue Letter Bible ( blueletterbible.org ) because it has commentaries as well as Strong's concordance, and other useful accessories. I am saying this because I want you to know I am not relying on my own personal made-up belief when I say these things, but that I read many sources (not all that I agree with) to come up with my personal belief, and in this matter, they all agree with me, or, more importantly, they all agree with each other, and I with them. The law is not mentioned by any of them. But I'm leaving it here so you can check it out to see what's being said by the biggest scholars.

Romans 11:6 But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace.

I'm first going to post the Biblical usage of the word translated as "works" from Strong's.

1. business, employment, that which any one is occupied
   
   1. that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2. any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3. an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work

Now I am going to post some commentary responses to this verse. I'll even stay away from the obvious Reformed/Calvinist theologians.

From David Guzik :
a. If by grace, then it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace: Paul left the previous verse noting that the remnant was chosen according to the election of grace. Now he reminds us what grace is by definition: the free gift of God, not given with an eye to performance or potential in the one receiving, but given only out of kindness in the giver.


b. If it is of works, it is no longer grace: As principles, grace and works don’t go together. If giving is of grace, it cannot be of works, and if it is of works, it cannot be of grace.

From Chuck Smith: We're accepted by God either by our works or by grace; it cannot be both

From Matthew Henry: Whence it takes its rise, from the free grace of God (v. 6), that grace which excludes works. The eternal election, in which the difference between some and others is first founded, is purely of grace, free grace; not for the sake of works done or foreseen; if so, it would not be grace. Gratia non est ullo modo gratia, si non sit omni modo gratuita-It is not grace, properly so called, if it be not perfectly free. Election is purely according to the good pleasure of his will, Eph. 1:5. Paul's heart was so full of the freeness of God's grace that in the midst of his discourse he turns aside, as it were, to make this remark, If of grace, then not of works. And some observe that faith itself, which in the matter of justification if opposed to works, is here included in them; for faith has a peculiar fitness to receive the free grace of God for our justification, but not to receive that grace for our election.

From Bill Acton:

• Grace Cannot Be Mixed with Anything – Expressly Works or Merit
  1. If there is a mix – there is no more grace
  2. If there is merit – works, deserving – there is no grace
• Works Cannot Be Mixed with Grace
  1. If grace is introduced alongside works then there is no more works
  2. If there is any undeserving favor given then there is no more works

From David Brown: "Now if it (the election) be by grace, it is no more of works; for [then] grace becomes no more grace: but if it be of works," &c. (The authority of ancient manuscripts against this latter clause, as superfluous and not originally in the text, though strong, is not sufficient, we think, to justify its exclusion. Such seeming redundancies are not unusual with our apostle). The general position here laid down is of vital importance: That there are but two possible sources of salvation--men's works, and God's grace; and that these are so essentially distinct and opposite, that salvation cannot be of any combination or mixture of both, but must be wholly either of the one or of the other.