Thessalonians 4 Does Not Teach a Rapture Separate from the Second Coming

Dale said:

For over 1500 years, Christians read Thessalonians and a “rapture” separate from the Second Coming never occurred to anyone. Take the famous traditional commentator, Matthew Henry.

For those who have not heard of Matthew Henry, he was a Welsh Calvinist minister who lived from 1662 to 1714. His commentaries on the Bible are among the most highly respected, widely read and frequently quoted commentaries ever written.

On the last part of I Thessalonians 4, Henry does not see this event as being secret in any sense.

Quote
He will descend from heaven into this our air, v. 17. The appearance will be with pomp and power, with a shout, the shout of a king, and the power and authority of a mighty king and conqueror, with the voice of the archangel; an innumerable company of angels will attend him. Perhaps one, as general of those hosts of the Lord, will give notice of his approach, and the glorious appearance of this great Redeemer and Judge will be proclaimed and ushered in by the trump of God.
End Quote

Henry sees the Rapture as identical to the Second Coming and followed very closely by the Final Judgment. Jesus descends “with pomp and power.” The trumpet in Thessalonians is a sign of Christ arrving as Judge.

Quote
And those who are raised, and thus changed, shall meet together in the clouds, and there meet with their Lord, to congratulate him on his coming, to receive the crown of glory he will then bestow upon them, and to be assessors with him in judgment, approving and applauding the sentence he will then pass upon the prince of the power of the air, and all the wicked, who shall be doomed to destruction with the devil and his angels.
End Quote

Henry sees Christians meeting Jesus “in the clouds” but only at the time of the Final Judgment. This includes the Judgment and destruction of the Devil, associated demons, and the wicked who follow him.

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Yes, I've been annoyed by the Pretrib Rapture of Dispensationalism for a long time. I found your post interesting in mentioning that early on 1 Thes 4 was not the basis of its proof. Today, you hear Dispensationalists claim it's "obvious" in 1 Thes 4 that it is proving a Pretrib Rapture???

There are incidences in history where belief in the 2nd Coming is somewhat separate from the "Rapture of the Church." But it is not separated in the way that Dispensationalists do it. It is more of a Pre-Wrath perspective, arguing that Christians are delivered 1st, and then relatively soon after come back with Christ from heaven. It isn't my view, but it explains how some have separated the Rapture from the 2nd Coming.

The idea, however, that the Rapture and the 2nd Coming are separated by 7 years, and that the Rapture can take place "on any day, at any time" is different, and far from the sense in which Jesus said his Kingdom was "near." In saying it was "near" Jesus was warning that judgment could come at any time, and that we have an immediate need to prepare ourselves for the Kingdom.

It wasn't that the Kingdom could come at any time, but that divine judgment could happen to us at any time. We always need to be ready. Thank you for your posts on this!

From liberty univ. Some evidence prior to Darby.
BRIEF HISTORY OF THE RAPTURE
Tom’s Perspectives
by Thomas Ice
"One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is t church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of
pe cholars such as John Walvoord,1
it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3
Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.
You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.4
Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but more likely the product of one scholars call
Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World. 5
The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. Therapture statement reads as follows:
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepareourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints andelect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are
taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Dale said:

In my lifetime, Protestant Christianity has been invaded by a bizarre doctrine of “rapture,” the notion that Christians should expect a “rapture” instead of the Second Coming of Christ. When I was a teenager, no one doubted that the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins was about the Second Coming. Now people tell me that the Wise and Foolish Virgins is about the “rapture.” Every verse that used to point us to the Second Coming has now been re-purposed to back up the unscriptural notion of “rapture.”

Today, Rapturists, or Dispensationalists, point to verses in Thessalonians 4. Interestingly enough, when the notion of rapture was invented in the 19th century, for decades it never occurred to anyone to support their belief with Thessalonians. See Post #2.

The only way to come up with a “rapture” is to separate the Second Coming into two parts, Part 1: Rapture, and Part 2: Second Coming, followed by the Millennium and Final Judgment. The idea of the “rapture” is that Jesus comes secretly for believers and snatches them away to heaven. Later He returns in glory, publicly, for all to see, the Second Coming. Yet Thessalonians refutes any notion of a secret coming of Christ.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a
loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the
trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I Thessalonians 4:16 NIV

Look at what this verse says. The coming of Jesus is heralded by an archangel. It is announced by a trumpet blast and “voice of an archangel” who shouts a “loud command.” This is not private, it is not secret, it is something everyone will see and hear. The coming of Christ in First Thessalonians 4 is public.

This isn’t the only point believers in a “rapture” overlook in I Thessalonians 4. The saints return with Jesus, just as they do in Revelation 19.

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe
that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in
him. I Thessalonians 4:14 NIV

It may be that these two verses are confusing. Verse 14 says that saints who have passed away will return with Jesus while verse 16 says that they will be raised from the dead. However they arrive, it is clear that those who died in communion with Christ will be present. No one who believes in the modern concoction of “rapture” says anything about those who lived in the past being seen as living Chrsitians disappear.

So where do believers go after they meet Jesus in the air?

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord for ever.
I Thessalonians 4:17 NIV

Paul says “we will be with the Lord for ever.” Rapturists take that to mean that Christians will be taken to heaven at this time. Yet the entire passage points to the Second Coming. If Christ has returned to earth, then Christians on earth are “with the Lord.”

Teachers Bible Commentary on I Thessalonians 4:1 – 5:22

“The Greeks had no concept for a resurrection of the body. They believed that only the spirit was eternal. Paul here (4:13-18) explains that the believers who have died will not be left behind. On the other hand, the Jews generally believed that only those living at the advent of the Messiah’s reign would share in it. Paul explains that the Christian view is different from both. Those who died as believers will be raised to take part in the coming messianic kingdom.”

The Teacher’s Bible Commentary, Herschel H. Hobbs, New Testament
Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1972

This is a traditional Baptist commentary. Notice there is no mention of “rapture.” Instead, it says that believers, some raised from the dead, will share in a Messianic Kingdom as Jesus rules on earth.

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Why is the Bible so confusing on this matter?

Because it doesn't matter. The rapture gives one an excuse not to do anything. People just sit around and go about their daily life. But they were never going to do anything anyway. Even if everything were perfectively clear, people would just sit around and go about their daily life.

Matthew 13 explains the reason for the confusion: Because you won't believe what your eyes can see and ears can hear, the truth has been hidden.

Logically, we don't even know who is worthy of rapture. Many Christians will seek to undermine the kingdom of heaven as established by Jesus on earth when he returns. They need to be weeded out first. So there must be a trial by fire for every Christian: Avoid the harvests (nuclear wars) and avoid the mark or at least choose death. This is literally Matthew 25.

Parable of the Talents: Avoid the harvests.
Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins: Don't be fooled by the fake Jesus (false prophet) and take the mark.

Remember the whole wide gate, narrow gate thing? Few will do anything.

A few remaining Christians will be brought to Jesus as he is descending to earth, and those Christians will be on earth with Jesus. Those Christians were tried by fire. Those who died for refusing the mark also join Jesus on earth. They were tried by fire too.

Matt5 said:

Why is the Bible so confusing on this matter?

Because it doesn't matter. The rapture gives one an excuse not to do anything. People just sit around and go about their daily life. But they were never going to do anything anyway. Even if everything were perfectively clear, people would just sit around and go about their daily life.

Matthew 13 explains the reason for the confusion: Because you won't believe what your eyes can see and ears can hear, the truth has been hidden.

Logically, we don't even know who is worthy of rapture. Many Christians will seek to undermine the kingdom of heaven as established by Jesus on earth when he returns. They need to be weeded out first. So there must be a trial by fire for every Christian: Avoid the harvests (nuclear wars) and avoid the mark or at least choose death. This is literally Matthew 25.

Parable of the Talents: Avoid the harvests.
Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins: Don't be fooled by the fake Jesus (false prophet) and take the mark.

Remember the whole wide gate, narrow gate thing? Few will do anything.

A few remaining Christians will be brought to Jesus as he is descending to earth, and those Christians will be on earth with Jesus. Those Christians were tried by fire. Those who died for refusing the mark also join Jesus on earth. They were tried by fire too.

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Funny there are unsubstaintiated claims about rapture believers doing nothing. Most of the Pentecostal movement and Charismatic movement were founded and propelled by pre trib rapture believers.

Richard T said:

From liberty univ. Some evidence prior to Darby.
BRIEF HISTORY OF THE RAPTURE
Tom’s Perspectives
by Thomas Ice
"One of the most often cited objections to pretribulationism is that it is a new teaching in church history having only come on the scene in the 1830s. It is t church history. In the last decade, individuals have found a number of
pe cholars such as John Walvoord,1
it is significant that the Apostolic Fathers, though
posttribulational, at the same time just as clearly taught the pretribulational feature of imminence. Since it was common in the early church to hold contradictory positions
without even an awareness of inconsistency, it would not be surprising to learn that their era supports both views. Larry Crutchfield notes, “This belief in the imminent
return of Christ within the context of ongoing persecution has prompted us to broadly label the views of the earliest fathers, 'imminent intratribulationism.’”2
Expressions of imminency abound in the Apostolic Fathers. Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, The Didache, The Epistle of Barnabas, and The Shepherd of Hermas all
speak of imminency.3
Furthermore, The Shepherd of Hermas speaks of the
pretribulational concept of escaping the tribulation.
You have escaped from great tribulation on account of your faith, and because you did not doubt in the presence of such a beast. Go, therefore, and tell the elect of the Lord His mighty deeds, and say to them that this beast is a type of the great tribulation that is coming. If then ye prepare yourselves, and repent with all your heart, and turn to the Lord, it will be possible for you to escape it, if your heart be pure and spotless, and ye spend the rest of the days of your life in serving the Lord blamelessly.4
Evidence of pretribulationism surfaces during the early medieval period in a sermon some attribute to Ephraem the Syrian, but more likely the product of one scholars call
Pseudo-Ephraem, entitled Sermon on The Last Times, The Antichrist, and The End of the World. 5
The sermon was written some time between the fourth and sixth century. Therapture statement reads as follows:
Why therefore do we not reject every care of earthly actions and prepareourselves for the meeting of the Lord Christ, so that he may draw us from the confusion, which overwhelms all the world? . . . For all the saints andelect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are
taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins."

Click to expand...

There is a big difference between saying the Lord is "near" and saying the Lord can come "at any time," or "on any day." Can you find early Christian statements that teach that the Lord can come "on any day" or "at any time?"

It is not a problem so much of inconsistency of doctrine but a matter of ignorance that would produce expectations that seem contrary to a post-trib view. We may have, as doctrine, the belief that the 2nd Coming and the Rapture of the Church are a single event and still think it may take place in our lifetime. We are simply ignorant of the "times and seasons" as reserved to God.

At the same time we may know that the Jewish Tribulation, or the Jewish Diaspora, must precede the return of Christ to restore Israel, or that the preaching of the Gospel to all nations must precede Christ's Return. This may take, as far as we know, 200 years or 2000 years or more. Our expectations do not have to align with clear-cut doctrine that demands a post-trib view.

We may even teach that in some circumstances the body of Christians may be able to escape certain judgments in history that are designed by God to afflict the wicked, and not the righteous. For example, God may have allowed AIDS to afflict the gay communities for their sin while at the same time warning Christians to not get too close to the gay community since this judgment is not intended for them.

Of course, such "judgments" also tend to affect the innocent, as well, just as Jesus in his innocence had to suffer the afflictions that the wicked suffer here on earth. Clearly, there are incidences in the Scriptures where God brought judgment down upon the wicked, while sparing the righteous. Consider the Egyptian plagues, where Israel was able to escape these plagues, and at the 70 AD punishment of Jerusalem Jesus' Disciples were able to escape to Pella.

These incidences do not refer to the 2nd Coming, but to events in history where God has delivered the righteous from various punishments. However, when it comes to the 2nd Coming, the judgment that the righteous are ultimately delivered from is the punishment of Eternal Death. That has nothing to do with escape from the Reign of Antichrist, since that 3.5 year period is a "reign of a wicked ruler" and not entirely a period of final punishment, which is largely reserved for the end of this period.

Clearly, the reign of Antichrist suffers signs of Divine displeasure. But it is clear that the punishment that brings his reign to an end is not the same thing as a 3.5 year or 7 year reign of Antichrist, out of which the righteous must be delivered! There are many occasions in the Bible where the righteous suffer an evil reign with its attendant signs of Divine displeasure.

Dale said:

Ironically, during much of the 19th century, Dispensationalists did not point to Thessalonians 4, or anything else in Thessalonians to back up their belief in rapture. They supported it only through symbols, Old Testament festivals, and the child in Revelation 12.

This was John Nelson Darby’s view in 1833 and he continued to say the same thing through 1865.
“During the next three decades, Darby continued to base his pretrib rapture on the ‘man child’ symbol.”
“In 1865 Darby writes: “I have no doubt that the ‘man-child’ … includes the church as well as Christ.’”

Source:
Dave MacPherson, The Rapture Plot
Muskogee, OK: Artisan Publishers, 1994
p. 118-119

The verse Darby is talking about is Revelation 12:5.

She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the
nations with an iron sceptre. And her child was snatched up
to God and to his throne. Revelation 12:5 NIV

It is very hard to see how this verse could possibly refer to a “rapture” that saves Christians from wrath or persecution. A few verses later we find:

They overcame him [the Dragon, Satan] by the blood of the Lamb and by the
word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much
as to shrink from death. Revelation 12:11 NIV

The “male child” could refer to Christ, who did ascend to heaven but His ascension does not protect Christians from persecution.

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And in. 1 Thess 4:13-17 speaks about 4 different resurrections and in. Gal 1;4 and in 2 Thess 2:1 and in verse 3

DEPATUREN // APOSTASTIA. and 2 Thess 2:4. Paul writes about the Anti-Christ and I could say more nd have to go

study hard !! And by the way there is NO , Greek word RAPTURE in the Greek Text. !!

dan p

Dale said:

In my lifetime, Protestant Christianity has been invaded by a bizarre doctrine of “rapture,” the notion that Christians should expect a “rapture” instead of the Second Coming of Christ. When I was a teenager, no one doubted that the Parable of the Wise and Foolish Virgins was about the Second Coming. Now people tell me that the Wise and Foolish Virgins is about the “rapture.” Every verse that used to point us to the Second Coming has now been re-purposed to back up the unscriptural notion of “rapture.”

Today, Rapturists, or Dispensationalists, point to verses in Thessalonians 4. Interestingly enough, when the notion of rapture was invented in the 19th century, for decades it never occurred to anyone to support their belief with Thessalonians. See Post #2.

The only way to come up with a “rapture” is to separate the Second Coming into two parts, Part 1: Rapture, and Part 2: Second Coming, followed by the Millennium and Final Judgment. The idea of the “rapture” is that Jesus comes secretly for believers and snatches them away to heaven. Later He returns in glory, publicly, for all to see, the Second Coming. Yet Thessalonians refutes any notion of a secret coming of Christ.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a
loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the
trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I Thessalonians 4:16 NIV

Look at what this verse says. The coming of Jesus is heralded by an archangel. It is announced by a trumpet blast and “voice of an archangel” who shouts a “loud command.” This is not private, it is not secret, it is something everyone will see and hear. The coming of Christ in First Thessalonians 4 is public.

This isn’t the only point believers in a “rapture” overlook in I Thessalonians 4. The saints return with Jesus, just as they do in Revelation 19.

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe
that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in
him. I Thessalonians 4:14 NIV

It may be that these two verses are confusing. Verse 14 says that saints who have passed away will return with Jesus while verse 16 says that they will be raised from the dead. However they arrive, it is clear that those who died in communion with Christ will be present. No one who believes in the modern concoction of “rapture” says anything about those who lived in the past being seen as living Chrsitians disappear.

So where do believers go after they meet Jesus in the air?

After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up
together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And so we will be with the Lord for ever.
I Thessalonians 4:17 NIV

Paul says “we will be with the Lord for ever.” Rapturists take that to mean that Christians will be taken to heaven at this time. Yet the entire passage points to the Second Coming. If Christ has returned to earth, then Christians on earth are “with the Lord.”

Teachers Bible Commentary on I Thessalonians 4:1 – 5:22

“The Greeks had no concept for a resurrection of the body. They believed that only the spirit was eternal. Paul here (4:13-18) explains that the believers who have died will not be left behind. On the other hand, the Jews generally believed that only those living at the advent of the Messiah’s reign would share in it. Paul explains that the Christian view is different from both. Those who died as believers will be raised to take part in the coming messianic kingdom.”

The Teacher’s Bible Commentary, Herschel H. Hobbs, New Testament
Nashville, TN: Broadman Press, 1972

This is a traditional Baptist commentary. Notice there is no mention of “rapture.” Instead, it says that believers, some raised from the dead, will share in a Messianic Kingdom as Jesus rules on earth.

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As an Amillennialists, I disagree with your belief in Premillennialism, but I agree with what you said in support of a post-trib rapture (catching up to Christ in the air) rather than a pre-trib rapture as dispensationalists believe.

Another thing I would add is that 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:3 is all one narrative. So, right after we are caught up to Christ in the air He will then bring "sudden destruction" upon His enemies from which "they shall not escape", which clearly will happen post-trib and not pre-trib.

Matt5 said:

Why is the Bible so confusing on this matter?

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It isn't confusing at all. Jesus couldn't have been more clear about it.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus very clearly indicated that the gathering of the elect, which is the church (Romans 8:33), would occur "AFTER that tribulation". And what He said lines up with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 because He talks about the elect being gathered both from heaven, which lines up with Paul saying that the dead in Christ (their souls) will be with Him when He comes from heaven, and from earth, which lines up with Paul saying that those who are alive and remain (on earth) will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ when Jesus comes.

Spiritual Jew said:

It isn't confusing at all. Jesus couldn't have been more clear about it.

Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, 25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. 26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Jesus very clearly indicated that the gathering of the elect, which is the church (Romans 8:33), would occur "AFTER that tribulation". And what He said lines up with what Paul wrote in 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 because He talks about the elect being gathered both from heaven, which lines up with Paul saying that the dead in Christ (their souls) will be with Him when He comes from heaven, and from earth, which lines up with Paul saying that those who are alive and remain (on earth) will be caught up with the resurrected dead in Christ when Jesus comes.

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Not only that but the Olivet Discourse is based on a combination of Dan 7 and Dan 9. In Dan 7 the Son of Man comes with the clouds to destroy the Man of Sin and to set up God's Kingdom on the earth. That is pretty clearly Postrib.

Dan 9 talks about the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" by the "Abomination of Desolation," which in Luke 21 identifies the AoD as the Roman Army destroying Jerusalem and the Temple in 70 AD, and sees the Son of Man returning to gather up Jewish believers, while restoring the nation after an age-long Jewish Diaspora, also called a Jewish "Punishment." That also is clearly Postrib.

Paul adds to Jesus' scenario in the Olivet Discourse the inclusion of the international Church with the Jewish remnant of Christians. When Christ returns he will bring with him all those from all nations who have died in his faith. And he will establish on earth spiritual rule through glorified Christians from all nations. We do not have to agree on everything to agree on some of these other important points.

Dale said:

In my lifetime, Protestant Christianity has been invaded by a bizarre doctrine of “rapture,” the notion that Christians should expect a “rapture” instead of the Second Coming of Christ.

Click to expand...

The phrase "second coming" is not in the Bible

John 14 "I will come again and RECEIVE you" to Myself after I GO to My Father's house to prepare A PLACE for you there I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself. Take you to heaven.

Dale said:

Now people tell me that the Wise and Foolish Virgins is about the “rapture.”

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The foolish do not get taken , the wicked do not get raptured.

Dale said:

Today, Rapturists, or Dispensationalists, point to verses in Thessalonians 4.

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There are two versions of premill rapture, only one of them is a dispensationalist pretrib secret rapture.

The other version is the "Historic Pre-mill" view where the rapture is not secret and is post-trib.
And it has the saints taken to heaven prior to the millennium (in the view that I follow)

Dale said:

Interestingly enough, when the notion of rapture was invented in the 19th century, for decades it never occurred to anyone to support their belief with Thessalonians. See Post #2.

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Dale said:

separate the Second Coming into two parts, Part 1: Rapture, and Part 2: Second Coming, followed by the Millennium and Final Judgment.

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agreed. first is "His appearing" as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19. Then after the 1000 years is His coming to Earth to reign.

Dale said:

The idea of the “rapture” is that Jesus comes secretly for believers

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No text says the rapture is secret in Matt 24 it is global , visible , world wide. So also in 1 Thess 4

Dale said:

yet Thessalonians refutes any notion of a secret coming of Christ.

For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a
loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the
trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.
I Thessalonians 4:16 NIV

Look at what this verse says. The coming of Jesus is heralded by an archangel. It is announced by a trumpet blast and “voice of an archangel” who shouts a “loud command.” This is not private, it is not secret, it is something everyone will see and hear. The coming of Christ in First Thessalonians 4 is public.

Click to expand...

Yep. The rapture event is very public as 1 Thess 4 proves

Dale said:

This isn’t the only point believers in a “rapture” overlook in I Thessalonians 4. The saints return with Jesus, just as they do in Revelation 19.

We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe
that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in
him. I Thessalonians 4:14 NIV

It may be that these two verses are confusing. Verse 14 says that saints who have passed away will return with Jesus while verse 16 says that they will be raised from the dead.

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"soul departs and returns to God who gave it " at death according to the OT.

Saints receive glorified resurrected bodies at the 1 Thess 4 rapture event

Dale said:

No one who believes in the modern concoction of “rapture” says anything about those who lived in the past being seen as living Chrsitians disappear.

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?? Saints from all ages resurrect in 1 Thess 4 "The dead in Christ rise first"

Dale said:

So where do believers go after they meet Jesus in the air?

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Heaven -- according to Christ in John 14 Jesus went to His Father's house, prepared a place there for the saints in that house belonging to "His Father in Heaven" in that place where Jesus went at His resurrection
John 14:1-3 Jesus says "I GO to prepare A PLACE for you "in My Father's house" and then HE returns to take saints "to His Father's house " (our Father who IS IN Heaven Matt 6). Clearly Jesus comes to take the saints to Heaven.

Matt 24:29-31 Jesus sends His angels "to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other" vs 31.

How is it that the saints are in the sky "from one end of the sky to the other" when He returns as per Matt 24?

The answer is the rapture event of 1 Thess 4:13-18.

13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That is the rapture of the saints who are resurrected and taken up in the air , and living saints caught up together with them. When the Lord comes to take the saints "to His Father's house" His Father "who is in heaven"

BobRyan said:

The phrase "second coming" is not in the Bible

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Heb 9.28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

BobRyan said:

John 14 "I will come again and RECEIVE you" to Myself after I GO to My Father's house to prepare A PLACE for you there I will come again and receive you (up) to Myself. Take you to heaven.

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Paul wrote that the Church, dead and living, will be caught up to the clouds, to join Jesus in his Coming to earth.

1 Thes 4.15 According to the Lord’s word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself will come down from heaven.

BobRyan said:

The foolish do not get taken , the wicked do not get raptured.

There are two versions of premill rapture, only one of them is a dispensationalist pretrib secret rapture.

The other version is the "Historic Pre-mill" view where the rapture is not secret and is post-trib.
And it has the saints taken to heaven prior to the millennium (in the view that I follow)

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That is a questionable analysis. The historic Premil Postrib view involves Christ coming *unexpectedly* with respect to unbelievers, but still on an unknown day with respect to believers. I don't know what you mean by "secret?"

He is unexpected but when he arrives, the whole world will know a change has taken place. The saints will rule, Satan will be bound, and both Israel and the Christian nations will be revived.

BobRyan said:

agreed. first is "His appearing" as we see in Matt 24 and 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19. Then after the 1000 years is His coming to Earth to reign.

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Actually, he comes "just as he left" to the earth. There is nothing about him coming after 1000 years.

Acts 1.11 “Men of Galilee,” they said, “why do you stand here looking into the sky? This same Jesus, who has been taken from you into heaven, will come back in the same way you have seen him go into heaven.”

BobRyan said:

No text says the rapture is secret in Matt 24 it is global , visible , world wide. So also in 1 Thess 4

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See above.

BobRyan said:

Yep. The rapture event is very public as 1 Thess 4 proves

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Above you said the "rapture is secret." Now, you say it is "very public." This is confusing--I don't know what you believe?

BobRyan said:

Matt 24:29-31 Jesus sends His angels "to gather His elect from one end of the sky to the other" vs 31.

How is it that the saints are in the sky "from one end of the sky to the other" when He returns as per Matt 24?

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The saints are caught up into the clouds, apparently to receive their glorified bodies so as to return to earth with Jesus. Please let me know what your position is--I'm confused!