At what point do we become responsible for talking against leaders like Trump?

I am proud to speak the truth.
I have attended four protests this year.
Responsible people like me are compelled by conscience to speak out about this assault on our Constitution.

Fantine said:

I am proud to speak the truth.
I have attended four protests this year.
Responsible people like me are compelled by conscience to speak out about this assault on our Constitution.

Click to expand...

We weathered the attack against our Constitution and with the new administration those who move against our republic are fighting a losing battle.

Fantine said:

I am proud to speak the truth.
I have attended four protests this year.
Responsible people like me are compelled by conscience to speak out about this assault on our Constitution.

Click to expand...

Really? Where were you during Trump's first term when you lot spent 4 years tryng to drive the duly elected president from office? Just a failed coup attempt, no big deal, right? Talk about rank hypocrisy!

Fantine said:

I am proud to speak the truth.

Click to expand...

Was "Russia Russia Russia" the truth? Did you care whether it was or not?

Jipsah said:

Was "Russia Russia Russia" the truth? Did you care whether it was or not?

Click to expand...

RRR was what Trump called a lie. 99%+ of what he calls lies are verifiably true.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There is only 1 party currently available to Christians. Trump is doing just FINE with the below agenda, regardless of alt claims, thank you.

That would be the party that:

Does not promote abortion
Does not promote elementary age children to be taught about LGTBQ+ matters in public schools
Does not promote surgical alteration or drug alteration of children's birth sex
Does not promote men with beards dressed like women reading fairy tales to children
Does not allow millions of illegal aliens to flood the country and draw off the public purse

Just the opening ante. The list of liberal fantasies is quite long.

etc
etc

Click to expand...

While your list of policies align with Christian values, I still think we should vote for individuals not a party. There are some policy failures too by Trump.
Tariffs that will be unsustainable because both the poor and foreign nations will not play along forever.
Pardoning of some questionable criminals
Abandonment of foreign corrupt bribery act prosecutions
Use of exec orders that violate the constitution.
Poor treatment of legal immigrants and in some cases illegal ones as well
Telling us he would release epstein files but like he said with his taxes, doing the opposite
The usual name calling and derogatory statements against people such as fed chairman powell
Harming diplomatic relations with allies by bullying them and losing the advantages of usa soft power.
Using tax policy to reduce taxes on the wealthiest while cutting off some benefits off to the poor.

Though i would call these and other things out, no President is perfect. Trump too has many other accomplishments and many of the negatives i list have yet to fully show their consequences. We should be careful in any assessments. For instance, trump won more latinos votes but is this a trend or will his domestic policies swing those voters back to others? Will the schism with musk be a bad consequence down the line? So lots of posturing without solid evidence as to the exact consequences yet.

Fantine said:

RRR was what Trump called a lie. 99%+ of what he calls lies are verifiably true.

Click to expand...

You still think "Russia Russia Russia" was true? Or did you ever think so?

Richard T said:

While your list of policies align with Christian values,

Click to expand...

Yes, that's where I go full stop.

Let's face it. Radical liberalism has gotten ridiculous.

And I'd feel similarly if conservatism got too far right. We're a long ways from that at this point. Unless you're a radical liberal.

Richard T said:

Tariffs that will be unsustainable because both the poor and foreign nations will not play along forever.

Click to expand...

Tariffs are working out just fine. The alternative is to have the U.S. labor market compete via slave or indigent labor countries wages.

Richard T said:

Pardoning of some questionable criminals

Click to expand...

They all do that. Biden's list is unbelievable. I hope it gets set aside by SCOTUS at some point

Richard T said:

Abandonment of foreign corrupt bribery act prosecutions

Click to expand...

Not familiar with that one. Some leftist propaganda outlets may be grasping for straws on that one.

Richard T said:

Use of exec orders that violate the constitution.

Click to expand...

Nothing will compare to the fiasco's we just finished with the previous admin.

Richard T said:

Poor treatment of legal immigrants and in some cases illegal ones as well

Click to expand...

There shouldn't be any illegals so that's a moot point. And legals may experience troubles from trying to clean up this mess created by really, every Pres. I can remember back to Regan.

Richard T said:

Telling us he would release epstein files but like he said with his taxes, doing the opposite

Click to expand...

Taxes were a nothingburger. Epstein is still playing out so I'm not calling that one out just yet.

Did you know that Maxwell and Epstein were co-founders of the Clinton Foundation?

Surprises daily.

Richard T said:

The usual name calling and derogatory statements against people such as fed chairman powell

Click to expand...

I actually love that part of Trump. Powell is a meathead and needs to move on.

Richard T said:

Harming diplomatic relations with allies by bullying them and losing the advantages of usa soft power.

Click to expand...

Pfftt. Canada can cry extreme liberal icicles as far as I'm concerned.

Richard T said:

Using tax policy to reduce taxes on the wealthiest while cutting off some benefits off to the poor.

Click to expand...

Another propaganda piece. I don't listen to the liars in MSM, which is where half the problems in this country are. People actually believe their garbage.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Yes, that's where I go full stop.

Let's face it. Radical liberalism has gotten ridiculous.

And I'd feel similarly if conservatism got too far right. We're a long ways from that at this point. Unless you're a radical liberal

Click to expand...

Trump actually is too far authoritarian and not enought conservative. The government planning of businesses is highest ever i think. Subsidies, deals carve outs arw not free market conservatism. Neither is managed trade for nations based on personal feelings such as trumps levies on brazil.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Tariffs are working out just fine. The alternative is to have the U.S. labor market compete via slave or indigent labor countries wages

Click to expand...

Just getting started. No conservative likes taxes on imports. Trump's trade policies are over the top, countries will not tolerate this long. I agree with fair trade but now Trump swung it to America's benefit and other nations detriment. There is very little slave labor worldwide. Seems ungodly to desire that American consumers must pay high wages while poor foreign workers are laid off. Many jobs like textiles wont come back to the usa anyway. We can revisit this in about 3 months.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

They all do that. Biden's list is unbelievable. I hope it gets set aside by SCOTUS at some point

Click to expand...

Your standard for Trump is based on relativism. Sure Trump improves on some things but past administrations are not a true conservative standard. The Supreme court can't overturn the power to pardon without ignoring precedence and the Constitution. Supporters must demand better.
As to the Foreign Corrupt Bribery Act. Trump signed an executive order telling the DOJ to stop prosecuting foreign bribery. I'm a conservative, its no liberal hoax that Trump thinks its ok for companies to bribe foreign officials.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Not familiar with that one. Some leftist propaganda outlets may be grasping for straws on that one.

Nothing will compare to the fiasco's we just finished with the previous admin.

Click to expand...

So better than biden is your low standard?

BelieveItOarKnot said:

There shouldn't be any illegals so that's a moot point. And legals may experience troubles from trying to clean up this mess created by really, every Pres. I can remember back to Regan.

Click to expand...

There are lots of classes of immigrants. Some or in process. Trump is harming some bona fide foreign residents. My navy friend for instance decided to get trying to live in the usa because his legal foreign wife was harassed one to many times at the border.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Taxes were a nothingburger. Epstein is still playing out so I'm not calling that one out just yet.

Click to expand...

True conservatives like lies? Trump repeated he would release. He failed to keep his word

BelieveItOarKnot said:

I actually love that part of Trump. Powell is a meathead and needs to move on.

Click to expand...

Your maga but not conservative at all. The Fed requires no political intererence. If they lowered to 1% as trump suggested , inflation would be hot.

I use my own mind to make decisions. I pray Trump does well but he has some troubling policies that are ad hoc. I prefer more free market economics, Trump prefers big government, still higher spending and policies geared toward the rich. It will end badly but we shall see soon enough. In most ways i hope im wrong.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Pfftt. Canada can cry extreme liberal icicles as far as I'm concerned.

Another propaganda piece. I don't listen to the liars

Click to expand...

Hard to know if their lying if you never listen. Disceenment to be able to tell what is true and just is good for any news or political source.

1Tonne said:

So here’s the heart of the matter for me:
1. When does it become our responsibility to discern truth for ourselves and stop blindly trusting what we’re told,- whether that message is for or against a leader?

Click to expand...

Always whether in politics, science or morality. That should be a given considering its a fundemental principle of good scholarship that we critically review the evidence before making a determination.

That means taking a step back and detaching from the issue at hand, seeing it from both sides, understanding the social and cultural factors at play and even that there will be many factors to consider. After all that this may be closer to the truth or facts which is usually somewhere in the middle as both sides are usually getting at some truth but distorting the rest when it comes to politics due to agendas.

I think we use to be that way where more people occupied the middle and could see the benefitc of both sides. Now its like enermies and the other side will literally destroy the world.

When the stakes become that extreme you know that its more than facts and a lot of belief and personal feelings taking over. Thats why things are getting heated now on social media nd in the streets with protests and riots.

So we meed to take a big breath, take a big step back and take a look at the bigger picture.

1Tonne said:

2. And if the media we're listening to is constantly negative about a leader, at what point do we become responsible for spreading lies, slander or gossip?

Click to expand...

I would have thought this was a well recognised modern day reality that you can't trust the information age. You can't trust everything you hear on line. I mean just because a news channel says so doesn;t mean its so. It use to be that reporting was about the facts but now who knows.

Its all about corporations who control media who control information. But we are seeing the rise of independent podcasts and news media which are exposing the lies. The more different opinions the better for getting the whole picture.

1Tonne said:

We live in a world full of information and opinions. As followers of Christ, we are called to seek truth, walk in humility, and avoid careless speech. That includes what we say about political leaders. I'd love to hear your thoughts on where this responsibility begins and how we can guard our hearts and words in this area.

Click to expand...

I find that I don't go on social media that much nowadays and I can only take so much of news and especially political commentary on modernday issues. It all begins to sound like whitenoise no matter which side its coming from.

I think being detached from all that and seeking the quiet and peace of God is what helps know His truth through Christ. Look at Christ. He never bought into the politics. Yet He is the ultimate ruler of Gods Kingdom of truth and peace over all politicians and rulers.

We'll see. The media has predicted Trump's loss of every election he's been in since the 2016 primaries,, and somehow he's still president.

I seem to recall some theological arguments here that we should be focusing on Christ, not on the government. The world will take care of the world, with God overseeing it. My trust is in God.

Full disclosure, I am a conservative, with traditional values, and I don't see that changing. Trump is a flawed human (as we all are), but I still preferred his policies over what Hillary/Biden/Harris had to offer. That said, it's an A/B choice. Just because I voted for Trump doesn't mean I agree with everything he says or does. It does mean I prefer him over the Democrats, who seem to be rooted in secular humanism. Trump can be a bit of a bully. But maybe God can use that accomplish certain things. Certainly there were many years of conservatives who wouldn't stand up to criticism because they were afraid of being called names by the liberals. Trump showed you don't have to play that game.

It's pretty clear that for some people, hating Trump is a full time job. But I notice that when you get too wrapped up into politics, you get wrapped up into a lot of hate and start acting weird. This too shall pass.

iarwain said:

I seem to recall some theological arguments here that we should be focusing on Christ, not on the government. The world will take care of the world, with God overseeing it. My trust is in God.

Full disclosure, I am a conservative, with traditional values, and I don't see that changing. Trump is a flawed human (as we all are), but I still preferred his policies over what Hillary/Biden/Harris had to offer. That said, it's an A/B choice. Just because I voted for Trump doesn't mean I agree with everything he says or does. It does mean I prefer him over the Democrats, who seem to be rooted in secular humanism. Trump can be a bit of a bully. But maybe God can use that accomplish certain things. Certainly there were many years of conservatives who wouldn't stand up to criticism because they were afraid of being called names by the liberals. Trump showed you don't have to play that game.

It's pretty clear that for some people, hating Trump is a full time job. But I notice that when you get too wrapped up into politics, you get wrapped up into a lot of hate and start acting weird. This too shall pass.

Click to expand...

I refuse to let the two party system dictate my choices.
Trump is a reflection of our nation lack of character.
All the more reason to focus on Christ. Perhaps he will help us transform into a people of character.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Trump is a reflection of our nation lack of character.

Click to expand...

That may well be. But I feel the same way about the Progressives. There's plenty of lack of character to spread around.
I think part of the problem is, considering what we do to our leaders these days, who would even want to be president?

iarwain said:

That may well be.

Click to expand...

It's indisputable. And what about what our leader does to us?

Fantine said:

It's indisputable. And what about what our leader does to us?

Click to expand...

He has done anything bad to me. And on the positive side, my federal taxes will be lower.

Not yet...
If you live in an area prone to hurricanes or wildfires, what will you do without FEMA?
One rural hospital about 90 miles away from us has already closed. What will you do when yours closes?
What will you do when the next pandemic comes (10% chance in the next five years) and our medical research and hospitals are 5 years behind the times with medical technology?
What will you do when tariffs raise your prices--or if things become unavailable?
Yeah, all those bad things, but what bothers me most is the erosion of our freedoms and rights--particularly for minorities, LGBTQ, trans, women of childbearing age? Oh, and all the people with darker complexions--the state troopers and local police have been "deputized" to serve as ICE agents, getting ICE training, so if you are walking while brown-skinned, driving while brown-skinned, watching your child's ball game while brown-skinned, your local police can question you, apprehend you, even deport you?
Six months and our dying democracy resembles a totalitarian police state more every day.