All that God did and commanded in the Old Testament was just.

John Robie said:

All that God did and commanded in the Old Testament was just. This includes everything from the laws given in the Garden, the Ten Commandments, etc. to the commands of wiping out entire nations.

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John Robie said:

When I said just, I meant morally right. Everything God commands and everything He does is right. Or righteous, if you please.

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PloverWing said:

So, as I compose a reply, I'm finding that the definition of "justice" is slipperier than I realized. The dictionary is telling me that "justice" is "just behavior", and "just" means "morally right and fair", which tells me nothing. Some other sources are similarly directing me to the various theories of ethics, which again tells me nothing about how justice differs from the other virtues. So maybe I need to talk to a philosopher. (@2PhiloVoid , do you have any philosopher's wisdom to offer here?)

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PloverWing said:

I had in mind the definition that "justice" = "good behavior is rewarded and evil behavior is punished". With this definition in mind, I answered "no". Sometimes the OT describes God as rewarding good behavior and punishing bad behavior, so that's definitely in there. But sometimes events are more arbitrary. The famine at the beginning of Ruth isn't described as punishment, and neither are the deaths of Elimelech, Mahlon, and Chilion; those were just bad things that happened, for no particular moral reason. And sometimes God helps people in ways that are unearned; Hosea, for example, describes God's loving care of the people of Israel despite their unfaithfulness. So, yes, there's reward and punishment, but there's also love and mercy, and there's random life stuff.

I'm now curious, though, what definition of "justice" you had in mind. As noted above, I'm realizing that there are bunches of definitions floating around.

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John Robie said:

That I understand. But the more I read, the less confusion there is. I read through the Bible twice a year. And the more I’ve read, the clearer it’s become. And mainly it’s made me grateful that He has shown me mercy because I’m no better than the rebellious Israelites.

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John Robie said:

I’d love to hear from @PloverWing as to why the False vote. It has me curious.

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Why You Ought Not Apply the Genocidal Passages of the Old Testament Today: A Catholic Perspective​

1. Scripture Is Progressive Revelation, Not Static Law​

• The Church teaches that Scripture is “without error” in what God wills to reveal for our salvation (cf. Dei Verbum §11), not necessarily in every historical or moral detail.
• You are not bound to imitate every action described in Scripture, especially those that conflict with the fullness of revelation in Christ.

✝️ 2. Christ Is the Fulfilment and Corrective of the Old Law​

• He commands you to love your enemies (Matthew 5:44), rebukes violent retaliation (Luke 9:55), and reveals God’s mercy as central to divine justice.
• The Catechism affirms that “the Gospel has brought to light the incompleteness of the Old Law” (CCC §1963).

3. The Church Condemns All Forms of Genocide​

• Vatican II’s Gaudium et Spes (§27) declares that “whatever is opposed to life itself… genocide… all these and the like are infamies indeed.”
• The Catechism (§2313) reiterates that “non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.”

️ 4. Allegorical and Typological Readings Are Preferred​

• Origen and Augustine saw the destruction of enemies as symbolic of the soul’s battle against sin.
• The conquest of Canaan prefigures the Church’s mission to overcome evil—not through violence, but through grace.

️ 5. You Must Uphold the Dignity of All Peoples​

• The Church’s mission is evangelisation, not domination.
• Any theology that seeks to revive Old Testament violence as normative is contrary to the Church’s understanding of divine mercy and justice.

Xeno.of.athens said:

I can tell you why I voted false. it comes down to how you read those commands to wipe out entire nations. is it OK to demand genocide? because even if at The time those commands were given and even if killing all your enemy's children and women, was a way of preventing them ever reforming as a nation to kill you in return. there is still no moral justification for genocide from The 21st century Christian perspective that I occupy. in short, I will not allow a particular perspective on a Book and its contents to make me behave badly towards other people. and if I were to say that it was fully justified to commit genocide in 1000 BC, because God said so, or more accurately, because one of God's prophets said so. what possible justification could I give if I were to refuse to engage in genocide when somebody claimed to be speaking for God, especially if their claim was credible. and they demanded genocide. It seems to me that there is something more fundamental than any particular interpretation of what Holy Scripture says. And that more fundamental thing is the knowledge of Christ and the teaching he gave, about loving our enemies. praying for those who persecute us and doing what is good and Right; keeping his commandments- Love one another as I have loved you. I am sure that many will object to the reason I've given.

---

Why You Ought Not Apply the Genocidal Passages of the Old Testament Today: A Catholic Perspective​

As one seeking to understand and live according to the Catholic faith, you are called to interpret Scripture not in isolation, but within the living Tradition of the Church, guided by the Magisterium and illuminated by Christ, who is the fullness of divine revelation. The so-called “genocidal passages” of the Old Testament—such as those found in Deuteronomy 7, Joshua 6–11, and 1 Samuel 15—must be approached with theological, historical, and moral discernment.

1. Scripture Is Progressive Revelation, Not Static Law​

You must recognise that divine revelation unfolds gradually. The Old Testament records the history of a people being formed in covenant with God, often through culturally conditioned narratives of warfare and conquest. These texts reflect the ancient Near Eastern milieu, where divine favour was often expressed in military terms.

• The Church teaches that Scripture is “without error” in what God wills to reveal for our salvation (cf. Dei Verbum §11), not necessarily in every historical or moral detail.
• You are not bound to imitate every action described in Scripture, especially those that conflict with the fullness of revelation in Christ.

✝️ 2. Christ Is the Fulfilment and Corrective of the Old Law​

As a follower of Christ, you are called to interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New. Jesus explicitly rejects violence as a means of establishing the Kingdom of God.

• He commands you to love your enemies (Matthew 5:44), rebukes violent retaliation (Luke 9:55), and reveals God’s mercy as central to divine justice.
• The Catechism affirms that “the Gospel has brought to light the incompleteness of the Old Law” (CCC §1963).

Thus, any interpretation that justifies genocide or ethnic cleansing is incompatible with the Gospel.

3. The Church Condemns All Forms of Genocide​

You are morally obligated to reject genocide in all its forms. The Church has consistently condemned such acts as grave violations of human dignity.

• Vatican II’s Gaudium et Spes (§27) declares that “whatever is opposed to life itself… genocide… all these and the like are infamies indeed.”
• The Catechism (§2313) reiterates that “non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.”

To apply ancient conquest narratives as moral justification today would be a profound distortion of Catholic teaching.

️ 4. Allegorical and Typological Readings Are Preferred​

You are encouraged to read difficult passages spiritually rather than literally. The Church Fathers often interpreted the wars of Israel as allegories for spiritual struggle.

• Origen and Augustine saw the destruction of enemies as symbolic of the soul’s battle against sin.
• The conquest of Canaan prefigures the Church’s mission to overcome evil—not through violence, but through grace.

This hermeneutic protects you from misusing Scripture to justify immoral acts.

️ 5. You Must Uphold the Dignity of All Peoples​

Catholic social teaching affirms the universal dignity of every human person, created in the image of God. You are called to be a peacemaker, not a warrior of vengeance.

• The Church’s mission is evangelisation, not domination.
• Any theology that seeks to revive Old Testament violence as normative is contrary to the Church’s understanding of divine mercy and justice.

---

In sum, you must not apply the genocidal passages of the Old Testament as moral or theological justification for violence today. To do so would be to misread Scripture, ignore the corrective light of Christ, and violate the core of Catholic moral teaching. You are instead called to interpret these texts within the fullness of divine revelation, always guided by love, mercy, and the dignity of the human person.

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2PhiloVoid said:

That's all fine and dandy, but the issue isn't whether or not someone today can think its "just" to apply ancient Israelite law and thereby commit genocide. No, the issue here is whether or not the commands given by God to Israel---precisely and only to the Israel of the late Bronze Age and Iron Age---are [were] "just."

Can we agree that in that set of contexts, and in those contexts alone, that it was 'just' of God to command the removal of pagan, competing nations at that time in the ancient past? I can. I might cringe when I acknowledge this, but I can do so today and do so without then taking Old Testament passages out of their ancient contexts and attempting to gerrymander them into my present day view of humanity that is defined through the person of Jesus Christ.

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John Robie said:

That I understand. But the more I read, the less confusion there is. I read through the Bible twice a year. And the more I’ve read, the clearer it’s become. And mainly it’s made me grateful that He has shown me mercy because I’m no better than the rebellious Israelites.

Click to expand...

Xeno.of.athens said:

I can tell you why I voted false. it comes down to how you read those commands to wipe out entire nations. is it OK to demand genocide? because even if at The time those commands were given and even if killing all your enemy's children and women, was a way of preventing them ever reforming as a nation to kill you in return. there is still no moral justification for genocide from The 21st century Christian perspective that I occupy. in short, I will not allow a particular perspective on a Book and its contents to make me behave badly towards other people. and if I were to say that it was fully justified to commit genocide in 1000 BC, because God said so, or more accurately, because one of God's prophets said so. what possible justification could I give if I were to refuse to engage in genocide when somebody claimed to be speaking for God, especially if their claim was credible. and they demanded genocide. It seems to me that there is something more fundamental than any particular interpretation of what Holy Scripture says. And that more fundamental thing is the knowledge of Christ and the teaching he gave, about loving our enemies. praying for those who persecute us and doing what is good and Right; keeping his commandments- Love one another as I have loved you. I am sure that many will object to the reason I've given.

---

Why You Ought Not Apply the Genocidal Passages of the Old Testament Today: A Catholic Perspective​

As one seeking to understand and live according to the Catholic faith, you are called to interpret Scripture not in isolation, but within the living Tradition of the Church, guided by the Magisterium and illuminated by Christ, who is the fullness of divine revelation. The so-called “genocidal passages” of the Old Testament—such as those found in Deuteronomy 7, Joshua 6–11, and 1 Samuel 15—must be approached with theological, historical, and moral discernment.

1. Scripture Is Progressive Revelation, Not Static Law​

You must recognise that divine revelation unfolds gradually. The Old Testament records the history of a people being formed in covenant with God, often through culturally conditioned narratives of warfare and conquest. These texts reflect the ancient Near Eastern milieu, where divine favour was often expressed in military terms.

• The Church teaches that Scripture is “without error” in what God wills to reveal for our salvation (cf. Dei Verbum §11), not necessarily in every historical or moral detail.
• You are not bound to imitate every action described in Scripture, especially those that conflict with the fullness of revelation in Christ.

✝️ 2. Christ Is the Fulfilment and Corrective of the Old Law​

As a follower of Christ, you are called to interpret the Old Testament through the lens of the New. Jesus explicitly rejects violence as a means of establishing the Kingdom of God.

• He commands you to love your enemies (Matthew 5:44), rebukes violent retaliation (Luke 9:55), and reveals God’s mercy as central to divine justice.
• The Catechism affirms that “the Gospel has brought to light the incompleteness of the Old Law” (CCC §1963).

Thus, any interpretation that justifies genocide or ethnic cleansing is incompatible with the Gospel.

3. The Church Condemns All Forms of Genocide​

You are morally obligated to reject genocide in all its forms. The Church has consistently condemned such acts as grave violations of human dignity.

• Vatican II’s Gaudium et Spes (§27) declares that “whatever is opposed to life itself… genocide… all these and the like are infamies indeed.”
• The Catechism (§2313) reiterates that “non-combatants, wounded soldiers, and prisoners must be respected and treated humanely.”

To apply ancient conquest narratives as moral justification today would be a profound distortion of Catholic teaching.

️ 4. Allegorical and Typological Readings Are Preferred​

You are encouraged to read difficult passages spiritually rather than literally. The Church Fathers often interpreted the wars of Israel as allegories for spiritual struggle.

• Origen and Augustine saw the destruction of enemies as symbolic of the soul’s battle against sin.
• The conquest of Canaan prefigures the Church’s mission to overcome evil—not through violence, but through grace.

This hermeneutic protects you from misusing Scripture to justify immoral acts.

️ 5. You Must Uphold the Dignity of All Peoples​

Catholic social teaching affirms the universal dignity of every human person, created in the image of God. You are called to be a peacemaker, not a warrior of vengeance.

• The Church’s mission is evangelisation, not domination.
• Any theology that seeks to revive Old Testament violence as normative is contrary to the Church’s understanding of divine mercy and justice.

---

In sum, you must not apply the genocidal passages of the Old Testament as moral or theological justification for violence today. To do so would be to misread Scripture, ignore the corrective light of Christ, and violate the core of Catholic moral teaching. You are instead called to interpret these texts within the fullness of divine revelation, always guided by love, mercy, and the dignity of the human person.

Click to expand...

Xeno.of.athens said:

4. Allegorical and Typological Readings Are Preferred​

You are encouraged to read difficult passages spiritually rather than literally. The Church Fathers often interpreted the wars of Israel as allegories for spiritual struggle.

• Origen and Augustine saw the destruction of enemies as symbolic of the soul’s battle against sin.
• The conquest of Canaan prefigures the Church’s mission to overcome evil—not through violence, but through grace.

Click to expand...

PloverWing said:

This...is an intriguing option. In the past, I've dismissed the kind of allegorical approach that the church fathers took, because

a) It's too easy to take whatever fanciful idea is in my head and project it onto the Scriptures; and

b) When interpreting Scripture, I insist on figuring out (as best as we can) what the authors intended to communicate as they wrote, and taking that as the starting point. If they meant to write poetry, read it as poetry. If they meant to write history, read it as history. And so on.

But... if the early church fathers made such wide use of allegorical reading -- so everyone took for granted that that was a good thing to do with Scripture -- is it possible that the author(s) of Joshua intended to be doing allegorical writing? That's how I see the early chapters of Genesis, after all. If Joshua is meant as a mythological description of the battle between good and evil, rather than being about the slaughter of humans, that changes many things. This is a wilder approach than the most liberal of my commentaries, but, as you say, the church fathers offer a precedent. I'll have to go look into the recent scholarship of Joshua.

Standard disclaimer, of course: Beware of any easy theological solution that tells you exactly what you want to hear.

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