How do we set aside the grace of God?

fli said:

God does not give everyone the ability to resist sin. For most of us it's a struggle. Paul caught Peter in hypocrisy. Annanias and wife were caught lying to God. The young man and drunks in Corinth. All the people Paul was warning in the letters. Even Paul said that he struggled with sin.

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You're sort of doubting or downplaying the work of the Holy Spirit there, no? So a believer is no different from an unbeliever in terms of his abilty to overcome sin, put to death the deeds of the flesh, produce good fruit by virtue of his connection to the Vine? Jesus just came so we could be comfortable remaining in our sin??

fli said:

Have you ever read Job. God was perfecting him.

Hebrews 12:3 For consider Him who endured such hostility from sinners against Himself, lest you become weary and discouraged in your souls. 4 You have not yet resisted to bloodshed, striving against sin. 5 And you have forgotten the exhortation which speaks to you as to sons: "My son, do not despise the chastening of the Lord, Nor be discouraged when you are rebuked by Him. 6 For whom the Lord loves He chastens, And scourges every son whom He receives." 7 If you endure chastening, God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom a father does not chasten? 8 But if you are without chastening, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate and not sons. 9 Furthermore, we have had human fathers who corrected us, and we paid them respect. Shall we not much more readily be in subjection to the Father of spirits and live? 10 For they indeed for a few days chastened us as seemed best to them, but He for our profit, that we may be partakers of His holiness. 11 Now no chastening seems to be joyful for the present, but painful; nevertheless, afterward it yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness to those who have been trained by it. NKJV

Does the above sound like a picnic?

1 Peter 4:1 Therefore, since Christ suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves also with the same mind, for he who has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, NKJV

Suffering in the flesh to get rid of sin. Instead of downplaying the role of the Holy Spirit, maybe I'm listening to Him.

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Who even hinted that it would be a picnic? You said God doesn’t give everyone the ability to resist sin. I say that no one will ever overcome except for His help, His grace. Here’s a teaching I’ve come to appreciate, in fact.:

409 This dramatic situation of "the whole world [which] is in the power of the evil one"302 makes man's life a battle:
The whole of man's history has been the story of dour combat with the powers of evil, stretching, so our Lord tells us, from the very dawn of history until the last day. Finding himself in the midst of the battlefield man has to struggle to do what is right, and it is at great cost to himself, and aided by God's grace, that he succeeds in achieving his own inner integrity.303

You're right, God is perfecting us. But that "journey to perfection", as it's been called, is one that we must be on-rather than saying, "Jesus did it all for me so I don't have to struggle at all". His burden is comparatively light, not non-existent. He opens the door to the life of grace, the life of God in us. We must cooperate with that highest of callings, picking up our crosses and following daily.

fli said:

Matthew 11:11 "Assuredly, I say to you, among those born of women there has not risen one greater than John the Baptist; but he who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12 And from the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffers violence, and the violent take it by force. 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if you are willing to receive it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15 He who has ears to hear, let him hear! NKJV


According to Jesus, John the Baptist was the greatest of those of those born of women. I take that to mean he was the least sinner of those born until that time. But even he needed Jesus.

Matthew 19:20 The young man said to Him, "All these things I have kept from my youth. What do I still lack?" 21 Jesus said to him, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me." NKJV


Jesus told a young man if he wanted to be as perfect as he could be, he had to sell all and follow Himself. In other words the man was to perfect himself by being as John the Baptist was. John didn't own anything but the clothes on his back, and he went around pointing to Jesus as the Messiah. That tells me that if anyone claims to be as sinless as possible, for a flesh and blood person can be, they have to be as John the Baptist was. Meaning they have to own nothing, but their clothes, and spend their day pointing to Jesus as the Messiah.

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We can always do and be better. But you seem to be saying that we can't be good at all- so why bother trying? And that would be like the wicked and lazy servant in Matt 25:26-27 who didn't even take what he'd been given and produce anything good from it.

Part of the difference here is that some of us believe that it’s all a done deal, that a believer becomes permanently saved all at once, that his will plays no part in that work of God’s. But God beckons and calls us; He informs and prompts and stirs and moves us to come to Him, and continues to do so in order that we will remain with Him. That’s all part of His bringing us into the Life he has for us-the life He’s always wanted man to have. But He never forces Himself upon us-He's not a puppetmaster-that's not what He wants for and from us. And to the extent that we remain near to Him, we will become more and more like Him. And that’s really the whole point. If we aren’t becoming more and more like Him, then we aren’t truly near to Him. And nearness to God is salvation.

fli said:

I apologize pastorwaris for saying your doctrine was false. Thank you again.

After analyzing the scriptures, I understand what you mean, I think. God has given us what we need to resist. That information is not automatically available to our knowledge. I say that because the Apostles Peter and Barnabas was not aware, or did not use, the information when needed. Paul wrote most of it, but he admits he still struggled with sin.

James 1:14 But each one is tempted when he is drawn away by his own desires and enticed. 15 Then, when desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, brings forth death. NKJV

First, James stated, most if not all, temptations come from within which seems to be what happened to David. He kept obsessing over her, in his mind, even when she disappeared. His way out-2Samuel 12:8 in addition to his own wives David had been given Saul's wives, and David could have asked God for more, which would have satisfied his desires.

1 Corinthians 10:13 No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it. NKJV

Next, God's not allowing us to be tempted beyond our ability is dependent on our taking the way of escape. If we have diligently sought our sanctification and His righteousness we should recognize and use the escape provided. David, and all of us who have sinned repeatedly, have failed because we didn't use the escape plan given to us by God. God's plan of salvation must be used in it's entirety and it takes constant vigilance on our part. Jesus did it all for us, we must use what He has provided.

Romans 7:14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am carnal, sold under sin. 15 For what I am doing, I do not understand. For what I will to do, that I do not practice; but what I hate, that I do. 16 If, then, I do what I will not to do, I agree with the law that it is good. 17 But now, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. 18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. 19 For the good that I will to do, I do not do; but the evil I will not to do, that I practice. 20 Now if I do what I will not to do, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells in me. NKJV

The final say- as long as we are housed in our flesh, we will never be able to use the tools provided to be without sin. And with the example of David, we should never be confident that sin cannot overcome our resolve to not sin.

Two other items in the gift list. We have the mind of Jesus and the love of Jesus both in the spirit man. While we have His mind and love, they are fighting our carnal mind and carnal love that we have always relied on. While we are in the flesh we cannot ever be without sin.

1 John 2:3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. 4 He who says, "I know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. NKJV

If we keep His 2 commandments and His word, we will die in Him and be in heaven. With the flesh dead, along with the carnal mind and carnal love, His mind and love that was in our spirit man is perfected. Our spirit man will now be us thinking like Jesus and our spirit man can love like Jesus loved.

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Dear beloved brother in Christ,

Thank you so much for your humble spirit and let me say from the start, there’s no need to apologize. This is how brothers sharpen one another in love (Proverbs 27:17), and your willingness to reexamine the Scriptures shows a heart that truly seeks truth above all else. That blesses me deeply.

You’ve brought out such rich and vital truths from God’s Word especially the reality that while we are saved by grace, we are still walking this journey in the flesh, daily relying on the Spirit's power to overcome.

You’re absolutely right: temptation doesn’t come from the outside alone. As James said, it begins in the hidden chambers of the heart our desires, our thoughts and unless checked, it leads to sin. David’s tragic fall is a sobering example of this. The “way of escape” was there, as you pointed out from 2 Samuel 12:8, but like us many times, he didn’t take it. That reminder alone should keep us watchful and humble.

And I really appreciate your highlighting of 1 Corinthians 10:13. It’s not just a promise it’s a call to awareness. The escape is there, but recognizing it requires spiritual discernment, which is developed as we walk in sanctification and yield ourselves daily to Christ. The problem isn’t the lack of provision it’s often our lack of attentiveness.

You’ve also drawn attention to one of the greatest tensions in the Christian life what Paul expresses in Romans 7. The war between the flesh and the Spirit is real, daily, and sometimes discouraging. But praise be to God, Paul didn’t stop at Romans 7. He continued into chapter 8: “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus...” That’s where our hope lies not in perfection in the flesh, but in the power of the Spirit who helps us live free from its control.

And yes, while we have the mind of Christ and the love of Christ, it’s a spiritual reality that must grow in us as we crucify the flesh daily. I’m reminded of Galatians 2:20: “It is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me…” The goal is not sinless perfection in the flesh, but spiritual maturity and abiding obedience, driven by love and grace.

I truly value your reflections, and I thank you for taking the time to dig so deeply into the Word. These conversations are how the Body of Christ grows when we reason together in love and truth, all under the Lordship of Christ.

May God bless you and strengthen you as you continue to seek Him and walk in His ways. Keep sharing, Dear Brother, your insights are a blessing to many.

In Christ’s grace and truth,
Pastor Waris

fhansen said:

Jesus just came so we could be comfortable remaining in our sin??

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Most people most places even in church remain comfortable sinning and never even thinking of tunring to God, never repenting.

Aaron112 said:

Most people most places even in church remain comfortable sinning and never even thinking of tunring to God, never repenting.

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Sounds true enough to me.

Good acts or legal obedience never made a single person sinless, ever

The notions that we overcome sin, by whatever methodology and therefore are sinless does not exist.

We are not one wit different than Paul, here:

Romans 7:
17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

Sin indwelling us does have a life of its own so to speak, or better said, a death of its own, regardless of what good we do.

And no wonder, because sin is in fact "of the devil." Everyone who tries to justify the entirety of themselves under any guise is merely trying to justify evil and the tempter or his own within them as well, or ignore it, or claim in blinded hypocrisy that it doesn't exist within them, when we all should honestly know that we are constantly under attack, knowingly or unknowingly. And that evil thoughts defile us all, just as Jesus showed us in Mark 7:21-23. <---This doesn't stop via the exercise of will power, or claimed legal obedience or good acts.

Everything mankind does transpires in the cesspool of this present darkness

And there are so few that are even able to "tell the TRUTH" about it. No, we'd rather act our way past the graveyard. To be "inspired by faith" to LIE.

We can be lights, but those lights are in fact shining in the dark. There is no such thing as one or the other

Everyone who reads that there is good fruit and bad, always thinks they are only the good and never the bad, and nothing can be further from the truth. Both sides apply