How do we set aside the grace of God?

SabbathBlessings · Jul 23, 2025

Aaron112 said:
I reckon you mean "translate" and not interpret. ALTHOUGH 'interpret' has come to mean translate in millions of places all around the world, mixing them up leads only to problems often.

I do not believe you even understand what the discussion was about or what was stated. It wasn’t about Heb 4:11

I know people like to jump in and accuse, but sometime it’s better to speak slow and understand the discussion before doing so. I am happy to discuss what we were referring to and the Greek definition and compare how it was used elsewhere in Scripture. That would be more fruitful than just posting an opinion.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 23, 2025

Aaron112 said:
This was/is the post I replied to. If someone/anyone "interprets" OR "translates" words incorrectly, it is an error.

We should not try to interpret Yahweh's Word, but accurate translation is helpful and may be useful when used correctly.

I was referring to the very first post you replied to me about. For the record if you would have taken time to read the posts would have seen I just posted the Greek defintion of the word that was used. If you disagree, I am open to a discussion on Scripture, as these types of discussions are not fruitful.

It’s okay, you take care.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 23, 2025

Aaron112 said:
The Scripture says not to interpret Scripture. The meaning of a word, especially a Greek definition, when compared to a Hebrew or Aramaic definition , in context, may be wrong. Thankfully , we hope, not often.
Most types of discussions online are not ever fruitful, so there's that to live with, btw.

Everyone interprets Scripture, even you. That why we need to prayerfully look at everything on difficult to understand Scriptures otherwise we would have Paul contradict Jesus and himself saying the law ended, when its not the meaning of the word in its original form.

Why don’t you go back through this thread and read what was stated and if you wish to comment on the Scripture that we are discussing I will be happy to do so, otherwise I will leave it at agree to disagree.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 23, 2025

interpret

[in-tur-prit]
Phonetic (Standard)IPA

verb (used with object)

to give or provide the meaning of; explain; explicate; elucidate.
to interpret the hidden meaning of a parable.
to construe or understand in a particular way.
to interpret a reply as favorable.
to bring out the meaning of (a dramatic work, music, etc.) by performance or execution.
to perform or render (a song, role in a play, etc.) according to one's own understanding or sensitivity.
The actor interpreted Lear as a weak, pitiful old man.
to translate orally.
Computers.
1. to use an interpreter to transform (a program written in a high-level language) into a sequence of machine actions, one statement at a time, executing each statement immediately before going on to transform the next one.
2. to read (the patterns of holes in punched cards) with an interpreter, printing the interpreted data on the sam

It’s why there are hundreds of translations because everyone interprets Scripture differently. Many never look at the original Greek or Hebrew words or how it reconciles with the other Scriptures which was my original point.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 23, 2025

Aaron112 said:
Yet it is an important truth to realize your definition of interpret, like most religion, is not what Jesus ever says. All thru religion and society interpret has become an error often repeated -
and as long as someone believes the error(s), no argument will convince them because using a false meaning as if true cements the error in place unchangeable (probably).
Thus, perhaps, one of the truths from Scripture, why the Father Himself is well pleased to hide salvation from the educated ones, and to freely and joyously reveal everything true about salvation to infants.

Even that is up for interpretation of what “educated ones” means. Was Paul not educated? Did Jesus hide salvation from Paul? There are many people who prayerfully study the Bible and well-educated on Scripture, it doesn’t mean Jesus is hiding His salvation from them. He doesn't hide His salvation from anyone, people choose to stay in darkness(sin) over coming to Jesus for salvation John 3:19-21. He died for everyone 1 John2:2 and salvation is for everyone, not everyone accepts it though.

Neogaia777 · Jul 23, 2025

Anyone who ever loses sight of why they need God, probably will not wind up being saved.

So, ask yourself this very, very important question then, "Why do I need God?", etc. That is, "What do I need Him to give me, or show me, or provide for me in order for me to get into Heaven after I die?"

You'd be surprised to know how many different people's answer to this question is "Nothing", or they can't ever answer it right, or properly, or in the way that it needs to be answered in order to get you into Heaven, etc. Best you be able to answer it, and answer it right, now, etc.

We must never lose sight of the fact that we will always need God to make up for where we don't measure up, etc. So, do/be/perform, etc, all you like, etc, but never ever lose sight of the fact that you will always need this from God, "or else", etc. (Or else you don't really need Him for anything that He can give you, etc).

God Bless.

fli · Jul 24, 2025

Aaron112 said:
Momentarily seeing this, I think God's Message in Galatians Says it is not true. Experientially Living in Jesus, I have not struggled to "do the law" in order to remain in Him. Having begun in spirit, we do not continue in the flesh but trusting Him remain in His life, His spirit. Very rare, but always hopeful trusting God and His Word to be Truth.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. NKJV

I hope that you are not saying that you do not sin.

1 John 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us. NKJV

You must be saying that because you confess your sins, God forgives you and therefore you are sinless.

pastorwaris · Aug 2, 2025

fli said:
Galatians 2:21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

What does Paul mean by “set aside the grace of God?” It definitely has something to do with the law. Paul stated “If righteousness came through the law Christ died in vain.”

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods, but God will destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 And God both raised up the Lord and will also raise us up by His power. NKJV

As Paul states in the above everything is legal for those who are in Christ. Romans 7 God considers everyone in Jesus to have died with Him. Being dead means that we are not under the law as dead people cannot sin. Therefore, God will not impute sin to those in Jesus. We have liberty to sin.

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. 14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself." NKJV

Paul warns us about using our liberty as an opportunity to please our flesh. Then he cites that all the law is fulfilled by the OT law of “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Does this mean that we have to “Love our neighbor as our self” to be saved by Jesus? No!

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. NKJV

Our righteousness is apart from the law. That means that our righteousness has nothing to do with our doing any OT law.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

God imputes righteousness apart from doing any works. The above scripture is a 2-edged sword. For those who do not work their faith is accounted for righteousness. It also means that if one is doing a work to be righteous, they do not believe in Jesus. If anyone believes in Jesus, then that belief in Jesus is their righteousness. How could they believe Jesus makes them righteous, if they are working to be righteous?

Romans 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes. NKJV

Again, the above scripture is a two-edged sword. If anyone believes in Jesus, He is the end of the law for righteousness. That means if you believe in Jesus you do not get any righteousness by doing works of the law.

It also means if anyone is doing works to be righteous, they do not believe that Jesus makes them righteous. If Jesus made them righteous then why do they need to work to be righteous?

That is what Paul means by setting aside grace. If anyone does any work to be righteous, they are setting aside the grace of God. God gives us grace so we do not need to work for righteousness.

Galatians 5:1 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage. 2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing. 3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law. 4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace. 5 For we through the Spirit eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. 6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but faith working through love. NKJV

Some Galatians had been convinced they had to trust in circumcision. Circumcision has noting to do with righteousness.(It was a requirement for those in the first covenant) If they got circumcised, believing they needed to for salvation, they would set aside the grace of God. If anyone sets grace aside the only way left to be righteous is by doing the law. We know no one will be made righteous by the law because no one except Jesus could do the law without committing sin.

Then why did Paul tell us to “love our neighbor as our self” to be righteous?

Paul has just gone through several chapters explaining how faith in Jesus is so much better than being under the law, he is not going to now tell the Galatians to do the law, the law is one entire unit not separate parts. He is telling them not to use the liberty in Jesus to satisfy their lusts. We do not lose salvation if we die under discipline, which if we use our liberty to satisfy our lusts we will die under discipline.

Galatians 2:20(a) I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; (b) and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain." NKJV

The answer to why Paul told us, to love our neighbor as ourselves, is in the above scriptures. Verse 20 b the life that Paul lived in the flesh he lived by faith in Jesus. That is the way all the sons of God live.

Romans 8:12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors — not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. 13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. 14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. NKJV

By accepting discipline, we prove that we are sons of God. Verse 12 we should not live to satisfy the flesh. If we live to the flesh we will die physically. Any of the elect (remember David and Bathsheba) could fall into temptation and quit walking in the Spirit. If this happens Jesus will start discipline, ending in our physical death , if we do not repent. This is what Paul meant by the life he now lives he lives by faith in Jesus. Paul had faith that if he continued to obey Jesus' commands that he would accomplish everything God had planned for him to do. Romans 13:8 We are under the law of love. If we fulfill the law of love we will continue to live physically. If we stop fulfilling the law of love we will die and go to heaven under discipline. 1Corinthians 11:32 God disciplines us so we will not be judged by the world.

Dear Brother in Christ,

Thank you for such a thorough and Scripture-rich comment. I genuinely appreciate your hunger for truth and your desire to rightly divide the Word (2 Timothy 2:15). You’ve raised essential points about grace, law, liberty, and righteousness that we must wrestle with prayerfully and biblically.

Let me first highlight your main objections and theological assertions, and then I’ll offer a pastoral and biblical response in love and clarity:

Key Assertions from Your Comment:

Galatians 2:21 “Setting aside the grace of God” refers to trying to earn righteousness through the law.
1 Corinthians 6 and Romans 7 Christians are dead to the law and have liberty, even liberty to sin, because God does not impute sin to those in Christ.
Galatians 5:13 Liberty shouldn’t be used to gratify the flesh, but fulfilling “love your neighbor” is not tied to salvation.
Romans 4 & 10 Works cancel out grace. Righteousness is only through faith, not obedience to any Old Testament law.
Galatians 5:1–6 If we try to be justified by any part of the law (like circumcision), we fall from grace.
Romans 8 & 13 If believers persist in walking in the flesh, they will die under discipline, not lose salvation.

Response with Biblical Clarity:

1. What Does It Mean to “Set Aside the Grace of God”?

You’re absolutely right Galatians 2:21 is Paul’s passionate cry against mixing law and grace:

“If righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” (Galatians 2:21, NKJV)

To set aside grace means to abandon God’s means of salvation, unmerited favor through faith in Christ alone and attempt to establish our own righteousness (Romans 10:3). Paul isn’t merely addressing circumcision but any effort to be made right with God through human effort.

So yes, when people try to earn or maintain righteousness through works even seemingly spiritual ones, they are functionally saying that Christ’s sacrifice was insufficient. That is spiritual treason.

2. Do We Have "Liberty to Sin"?

This is where we must be very careful, Dear Brother. You wrote:

“We have liberty to sin.”

That is a serious theological misstep. Paul directly refutes this kind of thinking:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?” Romans 6:1–2, NKJV

Yes, we’re not under the law for justification, but we are not given liberty to sin. That’s not grace, that’s lawlessness. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness:

“For the grace of God… teaches us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age.” Titus 2:11–12

Liberty in Christ is not freedom to sin but freedom from sin freedom to walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16). True saving grace transforms.

3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation

You rightly pointed out:

“We don’t ‘love our neighbor’ to be saved.”

Amen to that! Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). But Paul didn’t contradict himself when he quoted:

“For all the law is fulfilled in one word… ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’” Galatians 5:14

Why did he say that? Because love is the natural outworking of faith:

“The only thing that counts is faith working through love.” Galatians 5:6 (ESV)

In Christ, love is not a requirement for salvation, but it is a mark of the saved (1 John 4:7–8). As Jesus said, “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35).

4. Are Good Works and Obedience Useless or Just Not for Righteousness?

This is a point where we must walk in balance. You emphasized Romans 4:5, faith apart from works.

Yes. That’s gospel truth.
But the same Paul says:

“For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.” Ephesians 2:10

So, works don’t save, but the saved work. Not to earn, but to express the new life we’ve received.

5. Living by Faith, Not Legalism, Not Lawlessness

You beautifully quoted Galatians 2:20:

“The life I now live… I live by faith in the Son of God…”

That is the essence of Christian living not driven by law, nor driven by fleshly liberty, but by faith expressing itself through daily surrender.

You also referenced Romans 8:13–14, that if we live by the Spirit and put to death the deeds of the body, we will live. That’s not legalism. That’s Spirit-empowered obedience. Jesus said, “If you love Me, keep My commandments” (John 14:15).

Grace Is Not Fragile But It Is Transformational

Grace doesn't just forgive sin it frees us from the power of sin (Romans 6:14). If grace hasn't changed us, perhaps we’ve not truly received it.

So yes, to set aside grace is to trust in works. But it’s also to misuse liberty as an excuse to sin. Paul strikes both ditches legalism and lawlessness and calls us to Spirit-led living, where:

We are not justified by law (Galatians 2:16)
We are not condemned by failure (Romans 8:1)
But we are empowered to walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:25)

Dear brother,
the cross of Christ is not merely a legal transaction it’s a life-transforming encounter. Let us not just “agree” with Paul doctrinally, but “walk” as Paul walked crucified to the world, alive in Christ, and led by the Spirit (Galatians 6:14, Romans 8:14).

Let’s not set aside grace, let’s walk in it. Let’s not abuse liberty, let’s love through it. Let’s not fear the law but fulfill it by living through the power of the Spirit.

I think these Scriptures are useful to Meditate On,

Romans 6:1–14 Grace empowers holiness, not sin.
Titus 2:11–14 Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness.
Galatians 5:13–26 Liberty vs. walking in the Spirit.
John 14:15 Love and obedience in Christ.

With grace and truth in Christ,
Pastor Waris,
"For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ." John 1:17

fli · Aug 4, 2025

pastorwaris said:
2. Do We Have "Liberty to Sin"?
This is where we must be very careful, Dear Brother. You wrote:

That is a serious theological misstep. Paul directly refutes this kind of thinking:

Yes, we’re not under the law for justification, but we are not given liberty to sin. That’s not grace, that’s lawlessness. Grace teaches us to deny ungodliness:

Liberty in Christ is not freedom to sin but freedom from sin freedom to walk in the Spirit (Galatians 5:16). True saving grace transforms.

Thank you for your reply

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. NKJV

Paul states that we have liberty, but we should not use that liberty satisfy the flesh. Because Paul said, “do not use that liberty”, does that cancel the liberty we've been given? God has given us liberty. When I say we have liberty to sin, I mean we can sin and do sin, it doesn't mean that I think God said go fourth and sin. If I said that we should use that liberty to sin, then I was wrong.

Definition Liberty 3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or to a witness to leave a court, and the like.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God has granted us the privilege of not being under the law and not imputing sin to us. We should not abuse any privilege especially a privilege from God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV

Paul said there is nothing that is illegal, under the law, for us to do. If I quote him does that mean I am encouraging people to sin? In all the above I have done nothing more than quote Paul, or should I say, the Holy Spirit. We have liberty. God does not expect us to take advantage of that liberty to sin but some saints do. If they do it does not mean they have lost salvation.

pastorwaris said:
3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation
You rightly pointed out:

Amen to that! Salvation is by grace through faith (Ephesians 2:8–9). But Paul didn’t contradict himself when he quoted:

Why did he say that? Because love is the natural outworking of faith:

In Christ, love is not a requirement for salvation, but it is a mark of the saved (1 John 4:7–8). As Jesus said, “By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another” (John 13:35).

James cited Abraham to justify his argument that faith without works is dead. He was an apostle highly regarded by Peter, Paul and the entire Jerusalem church therefore his doctrine was correct. If he could use an OT saint and compare with our NT situation, then the rules/laws of the OT saints and NT saints are almost the same.

I will cite an example from an OT saint. According to 1Samuel 16:13 when Samuel anointed David the Spirit came upon him from that day forward. The Spirit never left David. Acts 10:43 all the prophets, meaning even David, witnessed that all one needed to do was believe in the messiah for remission of sins. How long was the Spirit of Jesus in him before he sinned with Bathsheba? Maybe 30 years or more? He should have shown more love for both Bathsheba, to not cause her to sin, and Uriah, as a brother in arms, to not steal his wife and have him murdered.

2 Samuel 11: 4 Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived; so she sent and told David, and said, "I am with child." …..........................................................................................
14 In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, "Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die." …................................................................................................................
21 Who struck Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? Was it not a woman who cast a piece of a millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you go near the wall?' — then you shall say, 'Your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.'" NKJV

I have only included the sins that David did. Please read 2Samuel 11:1-27 for the full story. What most of us do not realize is David committed 3 unforgivable sins. Adultery and murder each are unforgivable. The fact that both sins were well planned put both into the category of presumptuous sins.

Numbers 15:30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'" NKJV

Above is what God thinks of someone who commits a presumptuous sin. 2 Samuel 29: 39 Uriah was one of Davids 37 mighty men. He was a brother in arms with David.

Yes. Jesus enables us to love others and to keep from sinning. As In the example of David, who had the Spirit of Jesus all through his sins, it doesn't stop even the best of us from failing big time.

I deleted too much of you post.

You quoted Jesus John 14:15 "If you love me, keep My commandments."
You are right we have to keep His commandments,

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

Once we accept discipline the above are the only commandments of God that we must keep salvation. They are not contained under the old law.
Am I saying that we should commit lawlessness? Is that what John is saying in the above? No! John is only stating a fact.
We have an obligation, out of love for God, to act like we are children of God.

fhansen · Aug 4, 2025

fli said:
Thank you for your reply

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. NKJV

Paul states that we have liberty, but we should not use that liberty satisfy the flesh. Because Paul said, “do not use that liberty”, does that cancel the liberty we've been given? God has given us liberty. When I say we have liberty to sin, I mean we can sin and do sin, it doesn't mean that I think God said go fourth and sin. If I said that we should use that liberty to sin, then I was wrong.

Definition Liberty 3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or to a witness to leave a court, and the like.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God has granted us the privilege of not being under the law and not imputing sin to us. We should not abuse any privilege especially a privilege from God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV

Paul said there is nothing that is illegal, under the law, for us to do. If I quote him does that mean I am encouraging people to sin? In all the above I have done nothing more than quote Paul, or should I say, the Holy Spirit. We have liberty. God does not expect us to take advantage of that liberty to sin but some saints do. If they do it does not mean they have lost salvation.

James cited Abraham to justify his argument that faith without works is dead. He was an apostle highly regarded by Peter, Paul and the entire Jerusalem church therefore his doctrine was correct. If he could use an OT saint and compare with our NT situation, then the rules/laws of the OT saints and NT saints are almost the same.

I will cite an example from an OT saint. According to 1Samuel 16:13 when Samuel anointed David the Spirit came upon him from that day forward. The Spirit never left David. Acts 10:43 all the prophets, meaning even David, witnessed that all one needed to do was believe in the messiah for remission of sins. How long was the Spirit of Jesus in him before he sinned with Bathsheba? Maybe 30 years or more? He should have shown more love for both Bathsheba, to not cause her to sin, and Uriah, as a brother in arms, to not steal his wife and have him murdered.

2 Samuel 11: 4 Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived; so she sent and told David, and said, "I am with child." …..........................................................................................
14 In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, "Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die." …................................................................................................................
21 Who struck Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? Was it not a woman who cast a piece of a millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you go near the wall?' — then you shall say, 'Your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.'" NKJV

I have only included the sins that David did. Please read 2Samuel 11:1-27 for the full story. What most of us do not realize is David committed 3 unforgivable sins. Adultery and murder each are unforgivable. The fact that both sins were well planned put both into the category of presumptuous sins.

Numbers 15:30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'" NKJV

Above is what God thinks of someone who commits a presumptuous sin. 2 Samuel 29: 39 Uriah was one of Davids 37 mighty men. He was a brother in arms with David.

Yes. Jesus enables us to love others and to keep from sinning. As In the example of David, who had the Spirit of Jesus all through his sins, it doesn't stop even the best of us from failing big time.

I deleted too much of you post.

You quoted Jesus John 14:15 "If you love me, keep My commandments."
You are right we have to keep His commandments,

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

Once we accept discipline the above are the only commandments of God that we must keep salvation. They are not contained under the old law.
Am I saying that we should commit lawlessness? Is that what John is saying in the above? No! John is only stating a fact.
We have an obligation, out of love for God, to act like we are children of God.

We're obligated to love-and free not to. But if we don't love, we're not even His anyway. And to the extent that we love, we don’t break the law; a person cannot love and break the law at the same time.

fli · Aug 5, 2025

fhansen said:
We're obligated to love-and free not to. But if we don't love, we're not even His anyway. And to the extent that we love, we don’t break the law; a person cannot love and break the law at the same time.

Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

I believe in a God who justifies the ungodly.

1 Corinthians 11:27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

The God that I believe in loved the Corinthian drunks enough to chasten the drunks until they went to sleep. as Paul said of Christians who died and went to heaven, to keep them from being judged with the world.

That's not the way Christians should go to heaven. Buy it has happened

fhansen · Aug 5, 2025

fli said:
Romans 4:5 But to him who does not work but believes on Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is accounted for righteousness, 6 just as David also describes the blessedness of the man to whom God imputes righteousness apart from works: NKJV

I believe in a God who justifies the ungodly.

Love is not a work of the law-it's the nature of God and the very reason we were made, the purpose we were made for. Justification consists of forgiveness of sin and justice/righteousness given, defined most exhaustively and particularly by love. That's how God justifes the ungodly, by transforming us into His own nature, with new hearts and spirits.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom, 5:5

And love, as with any of the other virtues of faith and hope, is necessarily a gift first, and a choice, of ours, to embrace and act upon that gift, and continue to do so, and grow in it-or not. We can turn out to be poor soil, we can be lukewarm, we can taste of the heavenly gift and later reject it, we can escape the pollution of the world by the knowledge of Christ and later return to it, returning to the flesh, we can fail to persevere-all biblcal concepts. We can resist the movement of the Spirit, we can resist grace. But to the extent that we don't, meaning that we've remained in Him, then we will produce much good fruit, fruit driven by the love He's given us. Here's an example of that choice, to reciprocate with the love we've been shown and given, or not, with Jesus speaking to His followers:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

So we have to read the whole bible, not just the encouragements and exhortations, but the warnings and admonishments that bring balance, as well. Will we necessarily continue to bend to His chastisements? Will we remain on the Way that we began on, with Him? More on choice, the highest and worthiest choice a created being can be given, the choice for good over evil, life over death, God over no God, the choice to love at the end of the day:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Justice, love, is a free gift; we don't work to receive it. Now that we have it, we must live it, the life of God in us, the best we can. We're never forced to do so even as we're encouraged, admonished, enabled, empowered to. God wants our wills involved, and increasingly so, for our highest good. The first step, the doorway, is faith, the doorway to Him and the Life He has for us.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

That's the opposite of a work of the law. Both, love and the law, have the same goal but only the former, which is the righteousness of God to which the Law and the Prophets testify and which is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (Rom 3:21-22), can acheive it. The law is all about achieving or proving righteousness by the flesh, by the letter, on my own and apart from God, while love is about achieving it by the Spirit, now grafted into the Vine and in union with Him as I was created to be. In no way is the gospel a reprieve from the need to become righteous- and to live accordingly.

pastorwaris · Aug 5, 2025

fli said:
Thank you for your reply

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. NKJV

Paul states that we have liberty, but we should not use that liberty satisfy the flesh. Because Paul said, “do not use that liberty”, does that cancel the liberty we've been given? God has given us liberty. When I say we have liberty to sin, I mean we can sin and do sin, it doesn't mean that I think God said go fourth and sin. If I said that we should use that liberty to sin, then I was wrong.

Definition Liberty 3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or to a witness to leave a court, and the like.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God has granted us the privilege of not being under the law and not imputing sin to us. We should not abuse any privilege especially a privilege from God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV

Paul said there is nothing that is illegal, under the law, for us to do. If I quote him does that mean I am encouraging people to sin? In all the above I have done nothing more than quote Paul, or should I say, the Holy Spirit. We have liberty. God does not expect us to take advantage of that liberty to sin but some saints do. If they do it does not mean they have lost salvation.

Thank you for your gracious and well-reasoned reply, Brother. I appreciate your sincerity and your clear effort to handle Scripture with care.
Yes, we both agree we have liberty in Christ. Galatians 5:13 and 1 Corinthians 6:12 do affirm this. But here's the necessary distinction: liberty exists but liberty must be rightly defined and rightly directed.

You said, “we can sin and do sin,” and in terms of human experience, yes believers stumble. But let’s be clear: liberty is not the right to sin; it’s the Spirit-empowered ability to not be ruled by sin.

That’s Paul’s whole point in Romans 6:1–2:

“What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? God forbid!”

Paul’s argument is not merely behavioral it’s theological. The believer is no longer under the dominion of sin (Romans 6:14). So yes, sin may happen but it's no longer our master. That’s not a legal loophole it’s a spiritual transformation.

I love that you brought up 1 Corinthians 6:12. Notice Paul says,

“All things are lawful, but not all things are helpful…and I will not be brought under the power of any.”
That’s a liberty with guardrails. He doesn’t say “all things are morally neutral,” he says, "I will not let liberty become slavery." That’s the heart of Christian freedom.

So while quoting Paul doesn’t promote sin, how we interpret and apply that liberty absolutely matters. Because we both know even Satan quoted Scripture, but he twisted its intent (Matthew 4).

In short, we agree that God grants liberty but let’s boldly say:

Liberty in Christ is not the freedom to sin with impunity it is the power to live righteously despite the pull of the flesh.
That’s not just theology it’s transformation.

With respect and in unity for truth,
Let’s keep sharpening each other. Blessings

pastorwaris · Aug 5, 2025

fli said:
Thank you for your reply

Galatians 5:13 For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. NKJV

Paul states that we have liberty, but we should not use that liberty satisfy the flesh. Because Paul said, “do not use that liberty”, does that cancel the liberty we've been given? God has given us liberty. When I say we have liberty to sin, I mean we can sin and do sin, it doesn't mean that I think God said go fourth and sin. If I said that we should use that liberty to sin, then I was wrong.

Definition Liberty 3. A privilege conferred by a superior power; permission granted; leave; as, liberty given to a child to play, or to a witness to leave a court, and the like.
(from Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary of the English Language, PC Study Bible formatted electronic database Copyright © 2011 by Biblesoft, Inc. All rights reserved.)

God has granted us the privilege of not being under the law and not imputing sin to us. We should not abuse any privilege especially a privilege from God.

1 Corinthians 6:12 All things are lawful for me, but all things are not helpful. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. NKJV

Paul said there is nothing that is illegal, under the law, for us to do. If I quote him does that mean I am encouraging people to sin? In all the above I have done nothing more than quote Paul, or should I say, the Holy Spirit. We have liberty. God does not expect us to take advantage of that liberty to sin but some saints do. If they do it does not mean they have lost salvation.

James cited Abraham to justify his argument that faith without works is dead. He was an apostle highly regarded by Peter, Paul and the entire Jerusalem church therefore his doctrine was correct. If he could use an OT saint and compare with our NT situation, then the rules/laws of the OT saints and NT saints are almost the same.

I will cite an example from an OT saint. According to 1Samuel 16:13 when Samuel anointed David the Spirit came upon him from that day forward. The Spirit never left David. Acts 10:43 all the prophets, meaning even David, witnessed that all one needed to do was believe in the messiah for remission of sins. How long was the Spirit of Jesus in him before he sinned with Bathsheba? Maybe 30 years or more? He should have shown more love for both Bathsheba, to not cause her to sin, and Uriah, as a brother in arms, to not steal his wife and have him murdered.

2 Samuel 11: 4 Then David sent messengers, and took her; and she came to him, and he lay with her, for she was cleansed from her impurity; and she returned to her house. 5 And the woman conceived; so she sent and told David, and said, "I am with child." …..........................................................................................
14 In the morning it happened that David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it by the hand of Uriah. 15 And he wrote in the letter, saying, "Set Uriah in the forefront of the hottest battle, and retreat from him, that he may be struck down and die." …................................................................................................................
21 Who struck Abimelech the son of Jerubbesheth? Was it not a woman who cast a piece of a millstone on him from the wall, so that he died in Thebez? Why did you go near the wall?' — then you shall say, 'Your servant Uriah the Hittite is dead also.'" NKJV

I have only included the sins that David did. Please read 2Samuel 11:1-27 for the full story. What most of us do not realize is David committed 3 unforgivable sins. Adultery and murder each are unforgivable. The fact that both sins were well planned put both into the category of presumptuous sins.

Numbers 15:30 'But the person who does anything presumptuously, whether he is native-born or a stranger, that one brings reproach on the Lord, and he shall be cut off from among his people. 31 Because he has despised the word of the Lord, and has broken His commandment, that person shall be completely cut off; his guilt shall be upon him.'" NKJV

Above is what God thinks of someone who commits a presumptuous sin. 2 Samuel 29: 39 Uriah was one of Davids 37 mighty men. He was a brother in arms with David.

Yes. Jesus enables us to love others and to keep from sinning. As In the example of David, who had the Spirit of Jesus all through his sins, it doesn't stop even the best of us from failing big time.

I deleted too much of you post.

You quoted Jesus John 14:15 "If you love me, keep My commandments."
You are right we have to keep His commandments,

1 John 3:21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. NKJV

Once we accept discipline the above are the only commandments of God that we must keep salvation. They are not contained under the old law.
Am I saying that we should commit lawlessness? Is that what John is saying in the above? No! John is only stating a fact.
We have an obligation, out of love for God, to act like we are children of God.

Thank you, Brother, for such a thoughtful and thorough reply. I deeply respect your seriousness about Scripture and the sobering example you brought up from David’s life. It’s clear we both agree that love and obedience are not optional for the believer, but neither are they the means of salvation they are the evidence of it.

Let me walk with you on this.
Yes, James is absolutely right: faith without works is dead (James 2:17). But notice James doesn’t argue against salvation by faith; he argues against a false faith that bears no fruit. His use of Abraham supports Paul’s point, not contradicts it. Paul says Abraham was justified by faith before he did anything (Romans 4:3), and James points out that his faith was proven genuine by what followed. That’s harmony, not conflict.

Now, about David a sobering example of how even the Spirit-filled can fall. And yes, David committed grievous, presumptuous sins. He sinned against Bathsheba, Uriah, and most importantly, against God (Psalm 51:4). But here’s the powerful truth: David wasn’t saved because he was perfect. He was restored because he repented.

Psalm 51 shows a broken man crying out, “Take not Your Holy Spirit from me!” not because God is quick to leave, but because David knew what he deserved under the Law. Yet he also trusted in God’s mercy.

So what does this teach us?
It teaches us what you rightly said in your final point:

We are called to love and obey not to earn salvation, but to walk worthy of the One who saved us.

And that’s exactly what 1 John 3 affirms. His command is to believe on Jesus and to love one another not to return to the Law of Moses, but to live by the Law of Christ (Galatians 6:2), written on our hearts.

We don’t ignore sin we fight it. We don’t trust in law we trust in Christ. And by His Spirit, we bear the fruit of love not to get saved, but because we are.

So in short:

Yes, David sinned but he repented and God restored.
Yes, we are commanded to love but love is the fruit of salvation, not the foundation of it.
And yes, obedience matters but it's born out of relationship, not religious requirement.

That’s grace. That’s transformation. And that’s the Gospel.

fli · Aug 5, 2025

pastorwaris said:
Thank you for your gracious and well-reasoned reply, Brother. I appreciate your sincerity and your clear effort to handle Scripture with care.
Yes, we both agree we have liberty in Christ. Galatians 5:13 and 1 Corinthians 6:12 do affirm this. But here's the necessary distinction: liberty exists but liberty must be rightly defined and rightly directed.

You said, “we can sin and do sin,” and in terms of human experience, yes believers stumble. But let’s be clear: liberty is not the right to sin; it’s the Spirit-empowered ability to not be ruled by sin.

Thank you for your reply. Let us go step at a time to see if we can reach agreement.

First, I disagree that we are automatically given the Spirit-empowered ability to not be ruled by sin. In my last reply to you I cited David's sin with Bathsheba. David had the Spirit of Jesus for 30 years prior and all during the 9 months. David was a prophet meaning that David could hear and discern the still small voice of God. Yet for 9 months the Spirit of Jesus could not not get his attention. That to me is a clear and direct rebuttal to your statement. God had to send Nathan to hit him over the head with his sin. David was ruled by sin for 9 months.

fli · Aug 5, 2025

fhansen said:
Love is not a work of the law-it's the nature of God and the very reason we were made, the purpose we were made for. Justification consists of forgiveness of sin and justice/righteousness given, defined most exhaustively and particularly by love. That's how God justifes the ungodly, by transforming us into His own nature, with new hearts and spirits.
"And hope does not put us to shame, because God’s love has been poured out into our hearts through the Holy Spirit, who has been given to us." Rom, 5:5

And love, as with any of the other virtues of faith and hope, is necessarily a gift first, and a choice, of ours, to embrace and act upon that gift, and continue to do so, and grow in it-or not. We can turn out to be poor soil, we can be lukewarm, we can taste of the heavenly gift and later reject it, we can escape the pollution of the world by the knowledge of Christ and later return to it, returning to the flesh, we can fail to persevere-all biblcal concepts. We can resist the movement of the Spirit, we can resist grace. But to the extent that we don't, meaning that we've remained in Him, then we will produce much good fruit, fruit driven by the love He's given us. Here's an example of that choice, to reciprocate with the love we've been shown and given, or not, with Jesus speaking to His followers:

"For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. But if you do not forgive others their sins, your Father will not forgive your sins." Matt 6:14-15

So we have to read the whole bible, not just the encouragements and exhortations, but the warnings and admonishments that bring balance, as well. Will we necessarily continue to bend to His chastisements? Will we remain on the Way that we began on, with Him? More on choice, the highest and worthiest choice a created being can be given, the choice for good over evil, life over death, God over no God, the choice to love at the end of the day:

"Therefore, brothers and sisters, we have an obligation—but it is not to the flesh, to live according to it. For if you live according to the flesh, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live. For those who are led by the Spirit of God are the children of God." Rom 8:12-14

"Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord." Heb 12:14

"To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life." Rom 2:7

Justice, love, is a free gift; we don't work to receive it. Now that we have it, we must live it, the life of God in us, the best we can. We're never forced to do so even as we're encouraged, admonished, enabled, empowered to. God wants our wills involved, and increasingly so, for our highest good. The first step, the doorway, is faith, the doorway to Him and the Life He has for us.

"The only thing that counts is faith working through love." Gal 5:6

That's the opposite of a work of the law. Both, love and the law, have the same goal but only the former, which is the righteousness of God to which the Law and the Prophets testify and which is given through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe (Rom 3:21-22), can acheive it. The law is all about achieving or proving righteousness by the flesh, by the letter, on my own and apart from God, while love is about achieving it by the Spirit, now grafted into the Vine and in union with Him as I was created to be. In no way is the gospel a reprieve from the need to become righteous- and to live accordingly.

In your post prior to this you made a statement about love to the effect that if we didn't love we was not His. In rhis post irt's mostly about the love we have.
1 Corinthians 11: 20 Therefore when you come together in one place, it is not to eat the Lord's Supper. 21 For in eating, each one takes his own supper ahead of others; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22 What! Do you not have houses to eat and drink in? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you in this? I do not praise you. NKJV

Above is what some of the Corinthians were doing. Some of them were eating all the bread and some were drinking all the wine. Does either action show love for each other. Those eating all the bread were leaving the brethren hungry. Those drinking all the wine were getting drunk and leaving the brethren without any wine.

1 Corinthians 11:28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord's body. 30 For this reason many are weak and sick among you, and many sleep. 31 For if we would judge ourselves, we would not be judged. 32 But when we are judged, we are chastened by the Lord, that we may not be condemned with the world. NKJV

I do not think that either action displays the love of God for the brethren. God is chastening those who are abusing the Lord's supper. God is chastening them so they will not be condemned with the world. Those who went to sleep, Paul's way of saying a Christian died, have went to heaven. That does not agree with your conclusion that if we don't love we are not His.

I have cited David's sin to pastorwaris. David had the Spirit come upon him when Samuel first anointed him. At the time of his sin with Bathsheba he had the Spirit of Jesus in him for at least 30 years. What David did certainly did not display the love of Jesus.

pastorwaris · Aug 6, 2025

fli said:
Thank you for your reply. Let us go step at a time to see if we can reach agreement.

First, I disagree that we are automatically given the Spirit-empowered ability to not be ruled by sin. In my last reply to you I cited David's sin with Bathsheba. David had the Spirit of Jesus for 30 years prior and all during the 9 months. David was a prophet meaning that David could hear and discern the still small voice of God. Yet for 9 months the Spirit of Jesus could not not get his attention. That to me is a clear and direct rebuttal to your statement. God had to send Nathan to hit him over the head with his sin. David was ruled by sin for 9 months.

“Thank you for your thoughtful response. I sense a genuine desire for clarity and truth in your heart and that’s something God truly honors.”
Let’s start with David, since you raised that example with sincerity and depth.

You're absolutely right in saying David had the Holy Spirit. In fact, Psalm 51:11 shows his awareness of the Spirit when he cried out, “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.” David was God’s anointed, a prophet, a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14). And yet… he fell grievously. No question.

But here’s the truth we must embrace alongside that fact: The presence of the Holy Spirit does not override our free will. David wasn’t lacking the Spirit he was grieving Him (Ephesians 4:30). He hardened his heart, and yes, he resisted conviction for a long season.

But here’s the grace: God didn’t give up on him. That’s why Nathan came. Not because the Spirit was powerless but because God was patient. He used a prophet to break through David’s calloused conscience. Just like He often uses others in our lives when we drift.

So what does that mean for us, today?

When I said that believers are empowered by the Spirit to not be ruled by sin, I wasn’t saying we become incapable of sinning. No, not at all. What I mean and I believe Scripture affirms this is that we are no longer slaves to sin. That’s a positional truth rooted in the new birth.

Romans 6:14 declares: “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
So we’re not sinless… but we’re not helpless either. There’s a new power at work in us. Not perfection, but direction. We may stumble like David but we don’t have to stay there.

Paul himself wrestled with this in Romans 7, but he didn’t stop at his struggle he moved into victory:
Romans 8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.”

So why did David fall?

Because he chose to ignore the Spirit’s promptings. The Holy Spirit isn’t a bully. He nudges, convicts, whispers, woos… but He does not force. And yes, sometimes, in our stubbornness, we ignore Him.

But even in David’s 9-month rebellion, God was working behind the scenes. Psalm 32 (written after his restoration) says, “Day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer” (v.4). So the Spirit was speaking David just wasn’t listening. Sound familiar?

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.

God’s grace empowered David to repent, recover, and continue. The same grace is available to us. As Titus 2:11-12 teaches:

“For the grace of God has appeared… training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives…”
That’s the Spirit-filled life. It’s not sinless perfection it’s Spirit-empowered progression. One step at a time. Falling forward. Learning, repenting, growing. Amen?

So Dear Brother, I stand with you in acknowledging the reality of David’s fall. But I stand firmly in Scripture when I say:

The Holy Spirit is not powerless. He is patient. He does not override our will, but He empowers our walk.

Let’s not define God’s grace by David’s resistance but by David’s restoration. Grace found him. Grace confronted him. Grace transformed him.
And that same grace is available to every believer today not just to forgive our sins, but to free us from being ruled by them.

I’d love to continue walking through this together, step by step. I’m praying for you as you seek truth not just in theory, but in the transforming power of Christ living in us.

In Christ’s strength and with His joy,
Pastor Waris
Romans 6:18 “Having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.”

fli · Aug 6, 2025

pastorwaris said:
“Thank you for your thoughtful response. I sense a genuine desire for clarity and truth in your heart and that’s something God truly honors.”
Let’s start with David, since you raised that example with sincerity and depth.

You're absolutely right in saying David had the Holy Spirit. In fact, Psalm 51:11 shows his awareness of the Spirit when he cried out, “Cast me not away from your presence, and take not your Holy Spirit from me.” David was God’s anointed, a prophet, a man after God's own heart (1 Samuel 13:14). And yet… he fell grievously. No question.

But here’s the truth we must embrace alongside that fact: The presence of the Holy Spirit does not override our free will. David wasn’t lacking the Spirit he was grieving Him (Ephesians 4:30). He hardened his heart, and yes, he resisted conviction for a long season.

But here’s the grace: God didn’t give up on him. That’s why Nathan came. Not because the Spirit was powerless but because God was patient. He used a prophet to break through David’s calloused conscience. Just like He often uses others in our lives when we drift.

So what does that mean for us, today?
When I said that believers are empowered by the Spirit to not be ruled by sin, I wasn’t saying we become incapable of sinning. No, not at all. What I mean and I believe Scripture affirms this is that we are no longer slaves to sin. That’s a positional truth rooted in the new birth.

Romans 6:14 declares: “For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace.”
So we’re not sinless… but we’re not helpless either. There’s a new power at work in us. Not perfection, but direction. We may stumble like David but we don’t have to stay there.

Paul himself wrestled with this in Romans 7, but he didn’t stop at his struggle he moved into victory:
Romans 8:2 says, “For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death.”

So why did David fall?
Because he chose to ignore the Spirit’s promptings. The Holy Spirit isn’t a bully. He nudges, convicts, whispers, woos… but He does not force. And yes, sometimes, in our stubbornness, we ignore Him.

But even in David’s 9-month rebellion, God was working behind the scenes. Psalm 32 (written after his restoration) says, “Day and night Your hand was heavy upon me; my strength was dried up as by the heat of summer” (v.4). So the Spirit was speaking David just wasn’t listening. Sound familiar?

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.
God’s grace empowered David to repent, recover, and continue. The same grace is available to us. As Titus 2:11-12 teaches:

“For the grace of God has appeared… training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives…”
That’s the Spirit-filled life. It’s not sinless perfection it’s Spirit-empowered progression. One step at a time. Falling forward. Learning, repenting, growing. Amen?

So Dear Brother, I stand with you in acknowledging the reality of David’s fall. But I stand firmly in Scripture when I say:

Let’s not define God’s grace by David’s resistance but by David’s restoration. Grace found him. Grace confronted him. Grace transformed him.
And that same grace is available to every believer today not just to forgive our sins, but to free us from being ruled by them.

I’d love to continue walking through this together, step by step. I’m praying for you as you seek truth not just in theory, but in the transforming power of Christ living in us.

In Christ’s strength and with His joy,
Pastor Waris
Romans 6:18 “Having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.”

Thank you again, I get the idea we will never agree.

I thought David might have convinced you the doctrine that God gives everyone the ability to resist sin was wrong. I do agree Jesus could do it. But the scriptures disagree with that doctrine.

Let's go to Corinth. You cannot deny Paul stated that some of the drunks were sick and some went to sleep under chastisement. Going to sleep was Paul's way of saying a Christen died and went to heaven. If they died under discipline it means they did not stop the behavior that God was disciplining them for. God did not give them the ability to not sin because they died and went to heaven.

John 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. NKJV

When they accepted discipline, they proved that they were some of Jesus' sheep. They accepted discipline to give up something they loved doing, drinking, because Jesus told them to.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. NKJV

Paul recommended a discipline that is only for those in the kingdom of God. The entire church believed the man was saved and Corinth was endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit. Not only did Jesus not gift the man with the ability to resist his sin, the man didn't even know he was in sin. After he found out they were going to turn him over to Satan, he repented. Did he have a problem resisting, we don't know.

I was taught a similar false doctrine when I came in. I fought a sin for well over 20 years. I prayed about it and repented thousands of times. Finally, in desperation after failing again I cried out to the Lord: “God am I really saved.” The thought crossed mind mind “ You love the brothers.” I have not been bothered by that sin since, so he did take it from me. But not after a lot of anguish on my part. God does not automatically give everyone the ability to resist sin.

I hope that you are not telling me that you have not been bothered by sin since you received salvation.

pastorwaris · Aug 6, 2025

fli said:
Thank you again, I get the idea we will never agree.

I thought David might have convinced you the doctrine that God gives everyone the ability to resist sin was wrong. I do agree Jesus could do it. But the scriptures disagree with that doctrine.

Let's go to Corinth. You cannot deny Paul stated that some of the drunks were sick and some went to sleep under chastisement. Going to sleep was Paul's way of saying a Christen died and went to heaven. If they died under discipline it means they did not stop the behavior that God was disciplining them for. God did not give them the ability to not sin because they died and went to heaven.

John 10:2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. NKJV

When they accepted discipline, they proved that they were some of Jesus' sheep. They accepted discipline to give up something they loved doing, drinking, because Jesus told them to.

1 Corinthians 5:1 It is actually reported that there is sexual immorality among you, and such sexual immorality as is not even named among the Gentiles — that a man has his father's wife! 2 And you are puffed up, and have not rather mourned, that he who has done this deed might be taken away from among you. 3 For I indeed, as absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged (as though I were present) him who has so done this deed. 4 In the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, when you are gathered together, along with my spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus Christ, 5 deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. NKJV

Paul recommended a discipline that is only for those in the kingdom of God. The entire church believed the man was saved and Corinth was endowed with all the gifts of the Spirit. Not only did Jesus not gift the man with the ability to resist his sin, the man didn't even know he was in sin. After he found out they were going to turn him over to Satan, he repented. Did he have a problem resisting, we don't know.

I was taught a similar false doctrine when I came in. I fought a sin for well over 20 years. I prayed about it and repented thousands of times. Finally, in desperation after failing again I cried out to the Lord: “God am I really saved.” The thought crossed mind mind “ You love the brothers.” I have not been bothered by that sin since, so he did take it from me. But not after a lot of anguish on my part. God does not automatically give everyone the ability to resist sin.

I hope that you are not telling me that you have not been bothered by sin since you received salvation.

My Dear Brother,
While we may seek agreement, the challenge here lies in the difference between scriptural truth and personal opinion.

I am sharing from the foundation of the Scriptures, whereas your perspective seems to be based more on personal reasoning or interpretation. Naturally, these two approaches may not always align.

Nevertheless, I sincerely pray that the Lord blesses you abundantly with greater wisdom and a deeper revelation of His Word.

fli · Aug 6, 2025

pastorwaris said:
My Dear Brother,
While we may seek agreement, the challenge here lies in the difference between scriptural truth and personal opinion.

I am sharing from the foundation of the Scriptures, whereas your perspective seems to be based more on personal reasoning or interpretation. Naturally, these two approaches may not always align.

Nevertheless, I sincerely pray that the Lord blesses you abundantly with greater wisdom and a deeper revelation of His Word.

God does not give everyone the ability to resist sin. For most of us it's a struggle. Paul caught Peter in hypocrisy. Annanias and wife were caught lying to God. The young man and drunks in Corinth. All the people Paul was warning in the letters. Even Paul said that he struggled with sin.

How do we set aside the grace of God?

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

interpret​

verb (used with object)​

Well-Known Member

Old Soul

Well-Known Member

The Smallest Servant of God

Key Assertions from Your Comment:​

Response with Biblical Clarity:​

1. What Does It Mean to “Set Aside the Grace of God”?​

2. Do We Have "Liberty to Sin"? ​

3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation​

4. Are Good Works and Obedience Useless or Just Not for Righteousness?​

5. Living by Faith, Not Legalism, Not Lawlessness​

Grace Is Not Fragile But It Is Transformational​

I think these Scriptures are useful to Meditate On,​

Well-Known Member

3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation​

Oldbie

Well-Known Member

Oldbie

The Smallest Servant of God

The Smallest Servant of God

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

The Smallest Servant of God

So what does that mean for us, today?​

So why did David fall?​

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.​

Well-Known Member

So what does that mean for us, today?​

So why did David fall?​

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.​

The Smallest Servant of God

Well-Known Member

Similar threads

interpret

verb (used with object)

Key Assertions from Your Comment:

Response with Biblical Clarity:

1. What Does It Mean to “Set Aside the Grace of God”?

2. Do We Have "Liberty to Sin"?

3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation

4. Are Good Works and Obedience Useless or Just Not for Righteousness?

5. Living by Faith, Not Legalism, Not Lawlessness

Grace Is Not Fragile But It Is Transformational

I think these Scriptures are useful to Meditate On,

3. Love Is Not Law-Keeping for Salvation but It Is the Fruit of Salvation

So what does that mean for us, today?

So why did David fall?

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.

So what does that mean for us, today?

So why did David fall?

Grace doesn’t mean we won’t fall but that we don’t have to stay fallen.