If God can replace Israel, He can replace the Church, too

Clare73 · Monday at 10:54 AM

RandyPNW said:
I can't believe you are doublling down on something so preposterous.

Now all you have to do is Biblically demonstrate your belief of my error in the principle of Nu 12:6-8; i.e., prophecy is given in riddles (dark sayings) and not clearly, making it subject to more than one interpretation--my interpretation being different from yours--the only rule being that all interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching, because God does not contradict himself in his word written.

RandyPNW · Monday at 11:33 AM

Clare73 said:
Now all you have to do is Biblically demonstrate your belief of my error in the principle of Nu 12:6-8; i.e., prophecy is given in riddles (dark sayings) and not clearly, making it subject to more than one interpretation--my interpretation being different from yours--the only rule being that all interpretation must be in agreement with NT teaching, because God does not contradict himself in his word written.

Some things are simply a matter of logic--you don't need the Bible to prove one must be logical about interpreting it. It is *logical* that God would not give His Prophets information that is subject to misinterpretation. It is *logical* that Jesus would not give revelation to the Apostle John that was deliberately misleading--again, subject to multiple interpretations. It is *logical* that Paul accepts that not all truth is delivered with full understanding, since we know that we "see thru a glass darkly," and are flawed people.

We don't need the Bible to understand that it is illogical for God to give us revelation from the Prophets designed to mislead us, or to grant us any interpretation we see fit, due to the material being deliberately vague. It is much more logical to simply engage our reasoning faculties, as God said, "Let us reason together."

It is much more reasonable to assume that God had a reason for not always saying things too explicitly, whether to confuse the unbelieving, to challenge the believing, or to encourage greater study. But it is obviously logical and right to assume that even if we don't get it, due to it being a "dark saying," that we have no right to suggest an interpretation as true when we don't really fully get it yet.

Clare73 · Monday at 2:09 PM

RandyPNW said:
Some things are simply a matter of logic

Nothing in God's truth is based on pure human logic.
All is based on God's specific revelation and subject to agreement with the rest of the NT to be understood correctly.

RandyPNW said:
--you don't need the Bible to prove one must be logical about interpreting it.

Is it logical that only some condemned sinners, of the all that are guilty of the imputed sin of Adam (Ro 5:17-19), are predestined to eternal life?
Is it logical that God requires of us what we cannot do (e.g., perfect law keeping)?
Is it logical that the new birth is only by the sovereign decision of the Holy Spirit, who is as unaccountable as the wind (Jn 3:3-8)?

And therein is the source of your error. . .you subject God's revealed divine truth to your personal human logic.

Your use of man's reason to judge the validity of God's revealed truth has it upside down.
We don' judge God' truth, it judges us.

ViaCrucis · Monday at 8:10 PM

RandyPNW said:
Christian nations displaced national Israel, according to Amillennialists. And in our time the entire idea of a "Christian nation" has now been completely rejected by many Amillennialists. For them, Israel can never become a Christian nation because "there is no such thing as a Christian nation at all!"

Apart from the Holy Church, there is no Christian "nation".

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wounderful light." - 1 Peter 2:9

She is a nation of migrants, wanderers, wayfarers, strangers here; for our πολίτευμα is in the heavens, where Christ reigns; we have been birthed as children of a different kingdom, one where the least are greatest, shaped not like a sword, but a cross. For God is King, and through His Holy Messiah He rules; all the kingdoms of this world are subject to the supreme authority and Lordship of the Messiah, and that is why every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. All kings shall be judged as mere men; and the kings of the earth who have acted wickedly shall have their share of the deepest pit,

"Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers." - Isaiah 14:11

Therefore

"the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." - Revelation 11:15,

"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" - Daniel 2:35

"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:25-26

"YHWH said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'" - Psalm 110:1

The one Christian nation is the nation made up of all nations, tribes, and tongues; birthed of God by His grace, for there is one new man. She is without borders, she has no princes nor masters except the one Lord Jesus Christ. She is a nation in, but not of, the world; and who makes her habitation in the many kingdoms of this world, declaring her foreign allegiance to the King of kings; while still serving her neighbor, paying her taxes, praying for princes and kings and emperors, as she fears God.

-CryptoLutheran

RandyPNW · 2025-08-05T01:18:37-0500

ViaCrucis said:
Apart from the Holy Church, there is no Christian "nation".

"But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His wounderful light." - 1 Peter 2:9

She is a nation of migrants, wanderers, wayfarers, strangers here; for our πολίτευμα is in the heavens, where Christ reigns; we have been birthed as children of a different kingdom, one where the least are greatest, shaped not like a sword, but a cross. For God is King, and through His Holy Messiah He rules; all the kingdoms of this world are subject to the supreme authority and Lordship of the Messiah, and that is why every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father. All kings shall be judged as mere men; and the kings of the earth who have acted wickedly shall have their share of the deepest pit,

"Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
the sound of your harps;
maggots are laid as a bed beneath you,
and worms are your covers." - Isaiah 14:11

Therefore

"the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdom of our God and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever." - Revelation 11:15,

"Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver, and the gold, all together were broken in pieces, and became like the chaff of the summer threshing floors; and the wind carried them away, so that not a trace of them could be found. But the stone that struck the image became a great mountain and filled the whole earth" - Daniel 2:35

"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death." - 1 Corinthians 15:25-26

"YHWH said to my Lord, 'Sit at My right hand, until I make Your enemies Your footstool.'" - Psalm 110:1

The one Christian nation is the nation made up of all nations, tribes, and tongues; birthed of God by His grace, for there is one new man. She is without borders, she has no princes nor masters except the one Lord Jesus Christ. She is a nation in, but not of, the world; and who makes her habitation in the many kingdoms of this world, declaring her foreign allegiance to the King of kings; while still serving her neighbor, paying her taxes, praying for princes and kings and emperors, as she fears God.

-CryptoLutheran

As I said, many Christians today not only deny a future Millennial Kingdom, but now deny, as well, the very existence of Christian nations. Howevever, every quote of Scripture you draw upon is misplaced, in my judgment.

Of course I agree with Scripture, but none of what you quoted in the least denies the existence of the Israeli nation or the existence of Christian nations, nor does it deny a future Millennium with many Christian nations, including Israel.

When the ages of mortal men come to an end things will, of course, be different. But until then, every word that God promised Abraham will be fulfilled. Israel will survive and thrive as a believing nation, in covenant with God through Christ. And many of the fallen Christian nations will rise again, after judgment, to throw off the shackles that have held them back from a complete fulfillment. My opinion only.

This is what God promised Abraham, Israel and many nations sharing in his faith in God. And God cannot lie, no matter how many Scriptures you quote that have nothing to do with the subject. Sorry, I respectfully disagree with you.

Clare73 · 2025-08-05T11:07:14-0500

RandyPNW said:
As I said, many Christians today not only deny a future Millennial Kingdom, but now deny, as well, the very existence of Christian nations. Howevever, every quote of Scripture you draw upon is misplaced, in my judgment.

Of course I agree with Scripture, but none of what you quoted in the least denies the existence of the Israeli nation or the existence of Christian nations, nor does it deny a future Millennium with many Christian nations, including Israel.

The apostolic teaching (Ro 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) presents no "millennium."
That is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation; e.g., the "millennium" is figurative of the church age, where the "first resurrection" is figurative of the new birth from eternal death to eternal life.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-05T11:48:14-0500

Clare73 said:
The apostolic teaching (Ro 4:16-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16) presents no "millennium."

That's a bit deceptive, in my judgment. Was the Apostle John, who gave us the Revelation and the Millennium, an "apostle?" Of course he was! So, in my view, the Millennium is "apostolic teaching."

Clare73 said:
That is derived from personal interpretation of prophetic riddles (dark sayings) not spoken clearly (Nu 12:6-8) and subject to more than one interpretation; e.g., the "millennium" is figurative of the church age, where the "first resurrection" is figurative of the new birth from eternal death to eternal life.

I've already shown you that much of the Prophetic books of the Bible could fall into the category of "giving riddles and dark sayings!" There is a lot in there that was given for those of faith, while confusing those who did not have faith and did not what to believe in God.

So, calling my beliefs "based on riddles and dark sayings" is actually a compliment to me, and not anything I should be ashamed of. I believe in the Scriptural Prophets, as should you. You should base your own beliefs on these "riddles and dark sayings," if you're to believe Numb 12.6-8. Apparently you just refuse to admit this?

As I said, these "dark sayings and riddles," which would include Jesus' parables, are not subject to more than one interpretation. If a false interpretation is given, that is not what Jesus' parables would've meant to suggest.

Jesus did not suggest others can read anything they want into the parables he gave. Neither did the Prophets intend, in their "dark sayings," to allow any old interpretation you may want to put in there!

Clare73 · 2025-08-05T16:03:06-0500

RandyPNW said:
That's a bit deceptive, in my judgment. Was the Apostle John, who gave us the Revelation and the Millennium, an "apostle?" Of course he was! So, in my view, the Millennium is "apostolic teaching."

Prophecy is not didactical, no matter who pens it.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-05T18:59:28-0500

Clare73 said:
Prophecy is not didactical, no matter who pens it.

Why is that even relevant?

RandyPNW · 2025-08-05T20:52:33-0500

Clare73 said:
Prophecy is not didactical, no matter who pens it.

I shared your previous post with my brother, and he suggested the same thing--why is your argument even relevant? This is what he said:

"Your reply seems to point out that if Clare 73 tagged something you wrote as a "dark saying" or a "riddle", she needs to explain how that is relevant. The word translated "dark saying" or "riddle" in Numbers 12:8 is chiyiydah. As you indicate, it is used of the words of the wise in Proverbs 1:6, of that which the psalmist meditates upon (Psalm 49:4), and of that which the Prophet Ezekiel declares (Ezekiel 17:2)."

Clare73 · 2025-08-06T09:38:59-0500

RandyPNW said:
Why is that even relevant?

You interpret prophecy literally, when it is figurative (dark sayings, riddles, not spoken clearly, Nu 12:6-8).

"Millennium" is figurative of the church age, not a literal 1000 years.
The "first" resurrection is figurative of the new birth, not a physical resurrection of the dead.

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-08-06T10:19:10-0500

Clare73 said:
You interpret prophecy literally, when it is figurative (dark sayings, riddles, not spoken clearly, Nu 12:6-8).

"Millennium" is figurative of the church age, not a literal 1000 years.
The "first" resurrection is figurative of the new birth, not a physical resurrection of the dead.

Your post's assertions reflect a hermeneutic shaped by Calvinist presuppositions, particularly a symbolic or spiritualised reading of eschatological texts. While the Catholic Church does not mandate a strictly literalist interpretation of apocalyptic prophecy, she also does not reduce such texts to allegory. The Church teaches that Sacred Scripture must be interpreted according to the senses intended by the Holy Spirit, as articulated in Dei Verbum (n. 12), with due regard for literary genre, historical context, and the unity of Scripture.

Regarding Numbers 12:6–8, the passage distinguishes between the clarity of divine revelation given to Moses and the more enigmatic nature of prophetic speech. However, this does not imply that all prophecy is figurative or obscure. The Church recognises that prophecy may contain symbolic elements, but also affirms that it can convey concrete truths about future events, especially when interpreted within the living Tradition and guided by the Magisterium.

Concerning the “millennium,” the Church does not endorse a definitive interpretation of Revelation 20. She rejects both a naïve literalism and the extremes of millenarianism (Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 676). The thousand years may be understood symbolically, but the Church remains open to various theological readings, provided they do not contradict the definitive return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement.

As for the “first resurrection,” your identification of it with spiritual rebirth reflects a Reformed theological framework. The Catholic Church, however, maintains a sacramental and eschatological understanding of resurrection. While baptism is a participation in Christ’s death and resurrection (Romans 6:4), the Church also affirms the bodily resurrection of the dead at the end of time (CCC nn. 990–1004). The “first resurrection” in Revelation 20 may be interpreted in various ways, but it cannot be reduced solely to regeneration without reference to the hope of bodily resurrection, which is central to Catholic faith.

In sum, your interpretations, though coherent within your theological tradition, do not align with the fullness of Catholic teaching. The Church does not read prophecy through a purely figurative lens, nor does she spiritualise eschatology to the point of negating its bodily and historical dimensions. Her approach is both faithful to Scripture and guided by the living voice of Tradition.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-06T11:17:07-0500

Clare73 said:
You interpret prophecy literally, when it is figurative (dark sayings, riddles, not spoken clearly, Nu 12:6-8).

"Millennium" is figurative of the church age, not a literal 1000 years.
The "first" resurrection is figurative of the new birth, not a physical resurrection of the dead.

So, now we've come full circle. I said you could have your school and I can have mine. But you denied you have a school of thought on this, whereas the "figurative view" is very much a "school of thought."
Why don't you just "smoke the peace pipe" and embrace our differences?

Both the allegorical view and the literal view are dignified with a lot of respectable history. Neither view invites "dark or varied interpretations." There are valid arguments for both positions.

Clare73 · 2025-08-06T11:25:36-0500

RandyPNW said:
So, now we've come full circle. I said you could have your school and I can have mine. But you denied you have a school of thought on this, whereas the "figurative view" is very much a "school of thought."
Why don't you just "smoke the peace pipe" and embrace our differences?

Both the allegorical view and the literal view are dignified with a lot of respectable history. Neither view invites "dark or varied interpretations." There are valid arguments for both positions.

School of thought regards meaning of text.

Literal and figurative regard nature of text, about which we disagree regarding the prophecy (Rev 1:3) of Revelation.

Clare73 · 2025-08-06T11:27:59-0500

Xeno.of.athens said:
Concerning the “millennium,” the Church does not endorse a definitive interpretation of Revelation 20. She rejects both a naïve literalism and the extremes of millenarianism (Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 676). The thousand years may be understood symbolically, but the Church remains open to various theological readings, provided they do not contradict the definitive return of Christ, the resurrection of the dead, and the final judgement.

"Millennium" is figurative of the church age, not a literal 1000 years.
The "first" resurrection is figurative of the new birth, not a physical resurrection of the dead.

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-08-06T11:33:31-0500

Clare73 said:
"Millennium" is figurative of the church age, not a literal 1000 years.
The "first" resurrection is figurative of the new birth, not a physical resurrection of the dead.

you typed that before. why are you repeating yourself?

Clare73 · 2025-08-06T11:37:31-0500

Xeno.of.athens said:
you typed that before. why are you repeating yourself?

I give up. . .why?

Xeno.of.athens · 2025-08-06T11:50:57-0500

Clare73 said:
I give up. . .why?

it's a mystery to me.

RandyPNW · 2025-08-06T12:57:23-0500

Clare73 said:
School of thought regards meaning of text.

Literal and figurative regard nature of text, about which we disagree regarding the prophecy (Rev 1:3) of Revelation.

School of thought can involve meaning of text or nature of text. I think we've drifted far from the original concern. Premillennial thought vs Amillennial thought has a long history within the believing Church. It doesn't have to involve disbelief in the authority of Scriptures. I think there are good points made on both sides.

Clare73 · 2025-08-06T13:07:45-0500

RandyPNW said:
School of thought can involve meaning of text or nature of text. I think we've drifted far from the original concern. Premillennial thought vs Amillennial thought has a long history within the believing Church. It doesn't have to involve disbelief in the authority of Scriptures. I think there are good points made on both sides.

I see NT apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:14-17) of Christ (Lk 10:16), which presents no actual "millennium," as the authority for the truth of the matter.

If God can replace Israel, He can replace the Church, too

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