Watch: CNN Cuts Tulsi Gabbard Off as She Lays Out the Inconvenient Facts of the Russia Hoax

eclipsenow · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
Actually, I'm in the superior world of Mac computing. So if I were hitting any key combination, it would be Cmd + C.

Oh hey, did you know that more than 2/3 of Democrats believed that Russia tampered with votes to help Trump win in 2016? I think that's because the media ran around using dubious catchphrases, such as "Russia hacked our election", "The election was STOLEN!!!" and "Trump is an illegitimate President." Do you think that's why people wrongly believed votes were tampered with, or do you have another plausible, alternative explanation?

Didn't we just cover this in the other thread? What Americans choose to believe is different to what Clinton ever said.

Now compare that to what TRUMP said thousands of times - because his NPD cannot let him admit he lost.

Fox repeated The Big Lie on a daily basis. Then Rupert Murdoch had to retract this under oath in court with a $787 million fine for repeating Trumps lies.

Oops.

Servus · Aug 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
I'm honestly glad you spelled that out - and I'll retract my statement and try to remember that you are not MAGA. (If I forget please remind me.)

You have a more nuanced position than I thought.

Before we get back on topic, I'm wondering if you can help me with something from an American point of view where I am Australian - and we have far more parties to vote for?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but is it the fact that the democrats could be perceived as being this huge umbrella that covers all sorts of views - some of them more extreme than others?
Australia's version is the Labor party - and there are a few factions. But then we also have the Greens - and they have some things I like - but a while bunch of really hostile policies about church schools and limiting freedom of religion in employment situations that I find troubling.

I get the impression that the Democrats are like Labor AND then Greens and even some more radical elements all combined under one big party umbrella. Is that why they are such a problem for you?

I think whole thing has gone way overboard in what they call being progressive. My gripes are pretty much the same as the usual gripes others have aired before Trump and will continue to after Trump.

Servus · Aug 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
I am not putting all my faith in this one guy, but the fact that this guy represents the whole team. I'm also Cognizant that Marco Rubio's Committee later assessed and approved of this same CIA report.

I'm also aware that the "new information" is just the same old discredited Trumped-up Durham report that has been debunked in many reviews. It's just we now get to read the words of this house of cards.

So don't get too excited. Don't just quote a glib summary of the findings of the Durham report. You'll need to read the whole thing yourself or you might just get too worked up but others summaries - and not know how weak the original is!

How does or will any of that change whatever findings the department of intelligence uncovers?

Servus · Aug 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Didn't we just cover this in the other thread? What Americans choose to believe is different to what Clinton ever said.

Now compare that to what TRUMP said thousands of times - because his NPD cannot let him admit he lost.

Fox repeated The Big Lie on a daily basis. Then Rupert Murdoch had to retract this under oath in court with a $787 million fine for repeating Trumps lies.

Oops.

Both parties have insisted the election was stolen from them.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

eclipsenow said:
Didn't we just cover this in the other thread? What Americans choose to believe is different to what Clinton ever said.

It's odd that you think more than 2/3 of Democrats just made it up on their own that Russia changed vote tallies. It's odd that you don't think the incessant proclamations of the election being STOLEN!!! weren't a factor in why they thought that.

eclipsenow said:
Now compare that to what TRUMP said thousands of times - because his NPD cannot let him admit he lost.

Fox repeated The Big Lie on a daily basis. Then Rupert Murdoch had to retract this under oath in court with a $787 million fine for repeating Trumps lies.

Oops.

Yes, Republicans lie and use propaganda also.

GoldenBoy89 · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
OK. How does that amount to the election being STOLEN!!! ?

Despite the protests of both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, no elections have been stolen and I don’t really know anyone who believes they were when we’ve had two elections in a row with over 140 million votes cast. You don’t get turn out like that from people who believe the vote is rigged.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

GoldenBoy89 said:
Despite the protests of both Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, no elections have been stolen and I don’t really know anyone who believes they were when we’ve had two elections in a row with over 140 million votes cast. You don’t get turn out like that from people who believe the vote is rigged.

I agree with you that I don't think either election was STOLEN!!!, but Democrats tried their darnedest in 2016 to convince people that was the case, and Republicans did the same in 2020.

It happened again on a (MUCH) smaller scale in 2024. But to Harris' credit, she told people to accept and honor the election results.

CLAIM: President Joe Biden won approximately 20 million more votes in the 2020 election than Vice President Kamala Harris earned in the 2024 race, proving either that Trump has cheated his way to a second term or that there was widespread fraud four years ago.

THE FACTS: The claims are unfounded. Votes from Tuesday’s presidential election are still being counted, so any comparison with previous races would not be accurate. In addition, election officials and agencies monitoring the vote have reported no significant issues with Tuesday’s election. Claims of widespread fraud in 2020 have been debunked countless times.

...

Vice President Kamala Harris called Trump on Wednesday afternoon to concede the race and congratulate him.

“We must respect the results of this election,” she said in her concession speech.

Where are the ‘20m missing votes’? Democrats cling to false hopes of Biden-Harris gap

Social media has been awash with claims of ‘missing’ votes after Donald Trump’s sweeping victory - but there’s a simple explaination for the apparent gulf between Joe Biden and Kamala Harris’ vote tallies

www.independent.co.uk

GoldenBoy89 · Aug 5, 2025

ozso said:
Both parties have insisted the election was stolen from them.

Parties? No, two individuals have made that claim. Only one went so far as to protest at the Capitol which then led to a riot and hundreds of arrests. I only see one party still entertaining the fantasy of rigged elections.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

GoldenBoy89 said:
Parties?

Yes. In the video I posted, there were countless Democrats claiming the 2016 election was STOLEN!!! from them. It was not just two individuals.

iluvatar5150 · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
So your explanation for why more than 2/3 of Democrats thought votes had been tampered with is because they didn't read? You don't think the media and/or the Democrats running around irresponsibly claiming that the election had been STOLEN!!! and that Trump was an illegitimate President bear any responsibility for the fact that more than 2/3 of their voters believed this baseless conspiracy theory?

probinson said:
I like how you term things that are damaging to your argument "dross".

I'd love for someone (anyone) to explain why over 2/3 of Democrats believed the conspiracy theory that Russia had changed votes if there was no one implying it. But you and I both know that you can't answer that honestly and still contend that there wasn't an effective propaganda campaign to convince people that Russia had changed votes in the STOLEN!!! election. So, you'll just ignore it, repeat, WHAT ABOUT THE REPUBLICANS?!?! even though I've already acknowledged multiple times that anyone who believes the 2020 election was STOLEN!!! is guilty of buing into the Republican propaganda. It seems to be the only card in your hand.

If I remember the election laws correctly (and I concede that I may not), it's illegal for foreign actors to even do things like run ads that are perfectly legal for US-based entities. Assuming my recollection of the laws is correct, then Russia did some illegal things that likely swayed the election. Does that constitute "stealing"? eh.... I can kind of see an argument for it, but it feels like a stretch to me.

Of course there was a propaganda campaign to delegitimize Trump, and I'm sure many Dem pols and pundits were happy to let their audience misunderstand what they meant by "stolen", even when, once you drilled into the details of their complaints, few (if any) were claiming actual vote manipulation. You seem to be making the same error as their audience by conflating "improper influence" with "vote tampering".

DaisyDay · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
Perhaps, but it was a headline that the Washington Post ran. I never said it was a "news" headline.

It was the headline - read TITLE - of an opinion piece.

probinson said:
It sounds like Tom Toles either doesn't understand how the electoral college works, or is not in favor of the rules when the outcome doesn't go the way he prefers.

It doesn't read that way to me. He is hardly alone in decrying the fact that the winner of the electoral college can nonetheless have millions upon millions fewer votes overall. This debate is ongoing.

probinson said:
Mr. Toles also uses the term "Russian efforts". That's a slightly different way to say "Russian interference", but it is equally murky.

You may note that he also blamed the FBI's shenanigans, so I am not as alone in this as you made me out to be.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

iluvatar5150 said:
If I remember the election laws correctly (and I concede that I may not), it's illegal for foreign actors to even do things like run ads that are perfectly legal for US-based entities. Assuming my recollection of the laws is correct, then Russia did some illegal things that likely swayed the election.

That's true, but it's also nothing new. If you read the report, one of the emails said this:

Russia probably is using cyber means primarily to influence election by stealing campaign party data and leaking select items, and it is also using public propaganda. This fits an historical pattern of Russia using less sophisticated propaganda and information operations to influence US elections.

iluvatar5150 said:
Does that constitute "stealing"? eh.... I can kind of see an argument for it, but it feels like a stretch to me.

It does not constitute "stealing", nor did it make Trump's election "illegitimate".

iluvatar5150 said:
Of course there was a propaganda campaign to delegitimize Trump, and I'm sure many Dem pols and pundits were happy to let their audience misunderstand what they meant by "stolen", even when, once you drilled into the details of their complaints, few (if any) were claiming actual vote manipulation.

Right, because politicians are opportunists. When it became clear that polls were showing that an overwhelming majority of Democrats believed that votes had been tampered with, they just ramped up the rhetoric about STOLEN!!! elections and Russia "hacking". Combine those two terms and it's no wonder that more than 2/3 of Democrats believed Russia had tampered with vote tallies.

Servus · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
It's odd that you think more than 2/3 of Democrats just made it up on their own that Russia changed vote tallies. It's odd that you don't think the incessant proclamations of the election being STOLEN!!! weren't a factor in why they thought that.

I remember the day after the election democrat politicians proclaiming that Trump won because the Russians had rigged the election. That Putin specifically had put Trump in the White House. That's when I started disbelieving what they said against Trump. Not because I'm in love with Trump, but because of how insanely overboard they went from the get-go.

probinson said:
Yes, Republicans lie and use propaganda also.

Indeed, but they're better at it.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

DaisyDay said:
You may note that he also blamed the FBI's shenanigans, so I am not as alone in this as you made me out to be.

Maybe instead of blaming everyone else, the political party that loses would be better served by looking at their own failures and learning from them. One can dream.

DaisyDay · Aug 5, 2025

Vambram said:
Liberals keep on pointing back to previous information that was released several years ago. But, what I am not seeing is anything from them about the information that was NOT available until just a week or so ago.
Obviously, Wikipedia is not a strong source to use. However, clearly, Senator Grassley has read the newly declassified annex of the Durham Report and the newly declassified documents & emails which the public had no access to several years ago.

The stuff got put in the Annex because it was deemed not credible enough to put in the real report - much of that stuff was determined to be Russian fabrication. ^_^

Servus · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
Yes. In the video I posted, there were countless Democrats claiming the 2016 election was STOLEN!!! from them. It was not just two individuals.

Yep. I just commented on it. I remember it clearly, going full throttle from day one.

Say it aint so · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
OK. How does that amount to the election being STOLEN!!! ?

Ok. So this statement, "Since the beginning, Democrats and the media have used that to their advantage by claiming "interference" without ever really clarifying what that means" is in error. You may recognize it. Investigative reports replete with indictments clarified exactly what it meant.

DaisyDay · Aug 5, 2025

probinson said:
Maybe instead of blaming everyone else, the political party that loses would be better served by looking at their own failures and learning from them. One can dream.

How much money and sheer political capital did MAGA organizations and political operatives rake in post 2020 on the premise that the election was stolen? As long as there is profit to be had, this is extremely unlikely to change.

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

Say it aint so said:
Ok. So this statement, "Since the beginning, Democrats and the media have used that to their advantage by claiming "interference" without ever really clarifying what that means" is in error. You may recognize it. Investigative reports replete with indictments clarified exactly what it meant.

You are correct, and I will retract that statement.

However, none of what was classified as "interference" amounted to the election being STOLEN!!!

probinson · Aug 5, 2025

DaisyDay said:
How much money and sheer political capital did MAGA organizations and political operatives rake in post 2020 on the premise that the election was stolen? As long as there is profit to be had, this is extremely unlikely to change.

I don't know. How much money was raked in?

Watch: CNN Cuts Tulsi Gabbard Off as She Lays Out the Inconvenient Facts of the Russia Hoax

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