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Who is really responsible for Salvation?

FutureAndAHope

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Everyone CAN be disobedient, the point was he agreed with God and wasn’t disobedient. That is the only true response from someone whose heart has been turned by Christ to himself. Any other response is a lie. And why would anyone choose to respond with a lie?
Yes, some people do suppress God's calling.

Rom 1:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness,

Paul on the other hand received mercy because:

1Ti 1:13 although I was formerly a blasphemer, a persecutor, and an insolent man; but I obtained mercy because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
 
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Hentenza

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I know you believe in foreknowledge in the classical sense, so this will just be like water off a ducks back. But for me it opens up a whole set of questions.

THEORY 1
=======
Was the "choice" known to God. i.e. God before creation knew what the person would do, at the point of creation.
Yes. God is the alpha, beginning, and the omega, the end.
THEORY 2
=======
God knew the "choice" in the sense that He made it such that one who truly loved Him would be prepared to go to martyrdom. So knew the Martyr would choose love over comfort.
No. God knows who would go to martyrdom. Going to martyrdom is not a requirement for salvation.

Why is this even important?

Well,THEORY 1, would make God's nature such that He, before creation, knew every choice people would make, and desired to set creation into motion.
Yes.
Why I find difficult to reconcile is God in scripture clearly states that He wished He had not created man. So how could God know every choice before the creation, and still desire creation.

Gen 6:5-7 Then the LORD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the LORD was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. So the LORD said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them."

Because God is love and obviously wanted creation since we are here. I spoke to you a while back about anthropomorphisms in the Bible that helps us understand God’s displeasure of man and His feelings. This one is a perfect example. The whole of the Old Testament is Christological. It prepares us to better understand what Christ actually did for us. If you read the OT through the lense of Christ it will help your understanding.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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What did the Early Church Believe about Predestination

After reading some more Early Church Fathers, I can see two main points regarding the Predestination, Free Will argument.

  • The Early Church believed that God has foreknowledge, that He knows the future before it comes to pass.
  • That the Early Church believed that all people (all mankind) are extended a true offer of salvation
  • That man has free will, that God does not force man into salvation, or damnation, that man’s response to God determines their fate. That He (God) gives His good will to all people, because He loves all of those whom He created. That man’s free will is not altered by Foreknowledge.
Point One: God has foreknowledge

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him? Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 502

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195)

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

Point 2 and 3: People have free will, foreknowledge does not change it

Justin Martyr (110-165)

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made -Justin Martyr (110-165) First Apology - Ch 43)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... - Justin Martyr(110-165) Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37

Clement of Alexandria. (AD 195)

But the Lord, in His love to man, invites all men to the knowledge of the truth, and for this end sends the Paraclete. (Q 1)

Do not, however, faint. You may, if you choose, purchase salvation, though of inestimable value, with your own resources, love and living faith, which will be reckoned a suitable price. This recompense God cheerfully accepts; “for we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.” (Q 2)

Those men that draw near through fear, He converts. (Q 3)

But it has been God’s fixed and constant purpose to save the flock of men: for this end the good God sent the good Shepherd. And the Word, having unfolded the truth, showed to men the height of salvation, that either repenting they might be saved, or refusing to obey, they might be judged. This is the proclamation of righteousness: to those that obey, glad tidings; to those that disobey, judgment. (Q 4)

What, then, is the exhortation I give you? I urge you to be saved. This Christ desires. In one word. He freely bestows life on you. (Q 5)

to us who are obedient to the Word and masters of ourselves, who have believed, and are saved by voluntary choice, and are rationally, not irrationally, frightened by terror. (Q 6)

For the same who is Instructor is judge, and judges those who disobey Him; and the loving Word will not pass over their transgression in silence. He reproves, that they may repent. For “the Lord willeth the repentance of the sinner rather than his death.” (Q 7)

By the little grain, as it is figuratively called, He bestows salvation on all humanity abundantly. (Q8)
 
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Brightfame52

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Only God is responsible for Salvation, with man its impossible Matt 19:23-26

23 Then said Jesus unto his disciples, Verily I say unto you, That a rich man shall hardly enter into the kingdom of heaven.

24 And again I say unto you, It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God.

25 When his disciples heard it, they were exceedingly amazed, saying, Who then can be saved?

26 But Jesus beheld them, and said unto them, With men this is impossible; but with God all things are possible.
 
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A New Dawn

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What did the Early Church Believe about Predestination

After reading some more Early Church Fathers, I can see two main points regarding the Predestination, Free Will argument.

  • The Early Church believed that God has foreknowledge, that He knows the future before it comes to pass.
  • That the Early Church believed that all people (all mankind) are extended a true offer of salvation
  • That man has free will, that God does not force man into salvation, or damnation, that man’s response to God determines their fate. That He (God) gives His good will to all people, because He loves all of those whom He created. That man’s free will is not altered by Foreknowledge.
Point One: God has foreknowledge

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him? Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 502

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195)

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

Point 2 and 3: People have free will, foreknowledge does not change it

Justin Martyr (110-165)

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made -Justin Martyr (110-165) First Apology - Ch 43)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... - Justin Martyr(110-165) Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37

Clement of Alexandria. (AD 195)

But the Lord, in His love to man, invites all men to the knowledge of the truth, and for this end sends the Paraclete. (Q 1)

Do not, however, faint. You may, if you choose, purchase salvation, though of inestimable value, with your own resources, love and living faith, which will be reckoned a suitable price. This recompense God cheerfully accepts; “for we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.” (Q 2)

Those men that draw near through fear, He converts. (Q 3)

But it has been God’s fixed and constant purpose to save the flock of men: for this end the good God sent the good Shepherd. And the Word, having unfolded the truth, showed to men the height of salvation, that either repenting they might be saved, or refusing to obey, they might be judged. This is the proclamation of righteousness: to those that obey, glad tidings; to those that disobey, judgment. (Q 4)

What, then, is the exhortation I give you? I urge you to be saved. This Christ desires. In one word. He freely bestows life on you. (Q 5)

to us who are obedient to the Word and masters of ourselves, who have believed, and are saved by voluntary choice, and are rationally, not irrationally, frightened by terror. (Q 6)

For the same who is Instructor is judge, and judges those who disobey Him; and the loving Word will not pass over their transgression in silence. He reproves, that they may repent. For “the Lord willeth the repentance of the sinner rather than his death.” (Q 7)

By the little grain, as it is figuratively called, He bestows salvation on all humanity abundantly. (Q8)
Since it appears to be your assumption that God saves us because He can look down the corridors of history and see who believes in him and then chooses them to be saved, does that take into account all those who’s lives were changed 180 degrees because HE intervened and changed their hearts so they could/would believe? I mean, it can’t be both, so which is it? If God DIDN’T intervene, they wouldn’t be believers. You have to take that into account, which you refuse to address.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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Since it appears to be your assumption that God saves us because He can look down the corridors of history and see who believes in him and then chooses them to be saved, does that take into account all those who’s lives were changed 180 degrees because HE intervened and changed their hearts so they could/would believe? I mean, it can’t be both, so which is it? If God DIDN’T intervene, they wouldn’t be believers. You have to take that into account, which you refuse to address.
No one denies that God works in miraculous ways to save, but it is because of His love for His creation. What you deny is that we have a choice of how we respond to God.

Rom 1:18-19 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.

I know a true story of a man in a church I attended, for whom God performed a mighty healing miracle for him. He gave his life to the LORD. But a few weeks later, he returned to his sins. He unfortunately died soon after.

Mighty signs are there to save us, but we can deny them.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

You seem fixed on denying that God desires to save all. But that is what the Early CHurch believed, it is what the Bible states.

1Ti 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
 
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A New Dawn

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The only choice we have is to respond in truth and love and follow Him, or to respond with a lie, and who would do that? Because Jesus never fails to bring to the Father all that the Father has given him to save. John 6.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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The only choice we have is to respond in truth and love and follow Him, or to respond with a lie, and who would do that? Because Jesus never fails to bring to the Father all that the Father has given him to save. John 6.
You are obviously very sure of your doctrine. There is no point in trying to convince you otherwise.
 
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FreeinChrist

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ADVISOR HAT


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This thread had a clean up. At the bottom of the Statement of Faith is this:
Unorthodox Christian theology may only be discussed in the Controversial Christian Theology forum. These unorthodox topics do not directly oppose the Nicene Creed, but are not considered to be orthodox on CF. These unorthodox topics may not contradict the Nicene Creed. Non-Trinitarianism may only be discussed in the Outreach category forums. Gnosticism may not be discussed in any CF forums. The Controversial Christian Theology forum is open to Christian members only (faith groups list). Unorthodox Christian theological topics include (but are not limited to):

  • Annihilationism
  • Full Preterism
  • Open Theism
  • Universalism
Any posts promoting Open Theism will be removed from view.
 
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Hentenza

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What did the Early Church Believe about Predestination

After reading some more Early Church Fathers, I can see two main points regarding the Predestination, Free Will argument.

  • The Early Church believed that God has foreknowledge, that He knows the future before it comes to pass.
  • That the Early Church believed that all people (all mankind) are extended a true offer of salvation
  • That man has free will, that God does not force man into salvation, or damnation, that man’s response to God determines their fate. That He (God) gives His good will to all people, because He loves all of those whom He created. That man’s free will is not altered by Foreknowledge.
Point One: God has foreknowledge

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

Our God, one and the same, is also their God, who knows hidden things, who knoweth all things before they can come to pass; and for this reason has He said, “Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.” – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 21

If, therefore, in the present time also, God, knowing the number of those who will not believe, since He foreknows all things, has given them over to unbelief, and turned away His face from men of this stamp, leaving them in the darkness which they have themselves chosen for themselves, what is there wonderful if He did also at that time give over to their unbelief, Pharaoh, who never would have believed, along with those who were with him? Irenaeus (A.D. 180) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.1 pg. 502

Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195)

He then avoids denying Christ through fear by reason of the command; nor does he sell his faith in the hope of the gifts prepared, but in love to the Lord he will most gladly depart from this life; perhaps giving thanks both to him who afforded the cause of his departure hence, and to him who laid the plot against him, for receiving an honorable reason which he himself furnished not, for showing what he is, to him by his patience, and to the Lord in love, by which even before his birth he was manifested to the Lord, who knew the martyr’s choice. Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 195) Ante-Nicene Fathers vol.2 pg.411

Point 2 and 3: People have free will, foreknowledge does not change it

Justin Martyr (110-165)

But lest some suppose, from what has been said by us, that we say that whatever happens, happens by a fatal necessity, because it is foretold as known beforehand, this too we explain. We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, and chastisements, and good rewards, are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Since if it be not so, but all things happen by fate, neither is anything at all in our own power. For if it be fated that this man, e.g., be good, and this other evil, neither is the former meritorious nor the latter to be blamed. And again, unless the human race have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions, of whatever kind they be. But that it is by free choice they both walk uprightly and stumble, we thus demonstrate. We see the same man making a transition to opposite things. Now, if it had been fated that he were to be either good or bad, he could never have been capable of both the opposites, nor of so many transitions. But not even would some be good and others bad, since we thus make fate the cause of evil, and exhibit her as acting in opposition to herself; or that which has been already stated would seem to be true, that neither virtue nor vice is anything, but that things are only reckoned good or evil by opinion; which, as the true word shows, is the greatest impiety and wickedness. But this we assert is inevitable fate, that they who choose the good have worthy rewards, and they who choose the opposite have their merited awards. For not like other things, as trees and quadrupeds, which cannot act by choice, did God make man: for neither would he be worthy of reward or praise did he not of himself choose the good, but were created for this end; nor, if he were evil, would he be worthy of punishment, not being evil of himself, but being able to be nothing else than what he was made -Justin Martyr (110-165) First Apology - Ch 43)

I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so. So that if they repent, all who wish for it can obtain mercy from God: and the Scripture foretells that they shall be blessed, saying, ‘Blessed is the man to whom the Lord imputeth not sin;’... - Justin Martyr(110-165) Dialoque with Trypho, Ch 141

Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202)

This expression [of our Lord], “How often would I have gathered thy children together, and thou wouldest not,” (Mat 23:37) set forth the ancient law of human liberty, because God made man a free [agent] from the beginning, possessing his own power, even as he does his own soul, to obey the behests (ad utendum sententia) of God voluntarily, and not by compulsion of God. For there is no coercion with God, but a good will [towards us] is present with Him continually. And therefore does He give good counsel to all. And in man, as well as in angels, He has placed the power of choice (for angels are rational beings), so that those who had yielded obedience might justly possess what is good, given indeed by God, but preserved by themselves. On the other hand, they who have not obeyed shall, with justice, be not found in possession of the good, and shall receive condign punishment: for God did kindly bestow on them what was good; but they themselves did not diligently keep it, nor deem it something precious, but poured contempt upon His super-eminent goodness. – Irenaeus (A.D. 120-202), Against Heresies - Book 4 Ch 37

Clement of Alexandria. (AD 195)

But the Lord, in His love to man, invites all men to the knowledge of the truth, and for this end sends the Paraclete. (Q 1)

Do not, however, faint. You may, if you choose, purchase salvation, though of inestimable value, with your own resources, love and living faith, which will be reckoned a suitable price. This recompense God cheerfully accepts; “for we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, especially of those who believe.” (Q 2)

Those men that draw near through fear, He converts. (Q 3)

But it has been God’s fixed and constant purpose to save the flock of men: for this end the good God sent the good Shepherd. And the Word, having unfolded the truth, showed to men the height of salvation, that either repenting they might be saved, or refusing to obey, they might be judged. This is the proclamation of righteousness: to those that obey, glad tidings; to those that disobey, judgment. (Q 4)

What, then, is the exhortation I give you? I urge you to be saved. This Christ desires. In one word. He freely bestows life on you. (Q 5)

to us who are obedient to the Word and masters of ourselves, who have believed, and are saved by voluntary choice, and are rationally, not irrationally, frightened by terror. (Q 6)

For the same who is Instructor is judge, and judges those who disobey Him; and the loving Word will not pass over their transgression in silence. He reproves, that they may repent. For “the Lord willeth the repentance of the sinner rather than his death.” (Q 7)

By the little grain, as it is figuratively called, He bestows salvation on all humanity abundantly. (Q8)
You quoted 3 ecf’s. Irenaeus is not going to help your case. Clement of Alexandria talks about God knowing from “before his birth” and nothing about the person’s decision. Justin Martyr is going to fully agree with you since he spouts platonic philosophy and is probably the most quoted ECF by Arminian believers. You can’t make a broad assumption that the early ECF’s believed in free will with such a small rendering.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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You quoted 3 ecf’s. Irenaeus is not going to help your case. Clement of Alexandria talks about God knowing from “before his birth” and nothing about the person’s decision. Justin Martyr is going to fully agree with you since he spouts platonic philosophy and is probably the most quoted ECF by Arminian believers. You can’t make a broad assumption that the early ECF’s believed in free will with such a small rendering.
The reason why I quote 3 is that the vast majority of Early Church Fathers don't talk about the Free Will/Predestination so it is pointless to quote them**. You said "Irenaeus is not going to help your case" but if you read him, he has many passages on free will. Just because Clement of Alexandria talks about God knowing from “before his birth”, does not mean he believes in the kind of doctrine that separates man into two categories, he fully believed God in HIs love extends salvation to all man kind, because He loves them. Foreknowlege does not equate to randomly choosing some, in their eyes, God just has a foreknowledge.

** I say the vast majority of ECF don't quote anything regarding free will /predestination because I have read them word for word at least all of the 1st Century ones, and 3 of the 2nd Century. There is a summary of their beliefs in my online resource The Way and Free Will. which will need some updating after reading much of Clement of Alexandria. Due to the fact that my resource strongly supports the Open View of God, which may need some rethinking.
 
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Hentenza

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The reason why I quote 3 is that the vast majority of Early Church Fathers don't talk about the Free Will/Predestination so it is pointless to quote them. You said "Irenaeus is not going to help your case" but if you read him, he has many passages on free will. Just because Clement of Alexandria talks about God knowing from “before his birth”, does not mean he believes in the kind of doctrine that separates man into two categories, he fully believed God in HIs love extends salvation to all man kind, because He loves them. Foreknowlege does not equate to randomly choosing some, in their eyes, God just has a foreknowledge.
And yet John teaches us:

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

This is a bit more than just foreknowledge. This is election. You seem to down play foreknowledge to only mean knowledge without action. In addition to God being omniscient He is also all powerful. He does things for His will not ours.

Paul teaches:

“Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭21‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Why would you believe that God has no right to elect and predestine. He is the potter. He can make what He wills with the lump of clay or should He ask the lump of clay what it wants to be? And we are His object of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory.
 
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FutureAndAHope

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And yet John teaches us:

“No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day.”

This is a bit more than just foreknowledge. This is election. You seem to down play foreknowledge to only mean knowledge without action. In addition to God being omniscient He is also all powerful. He does things for His will not ours.

But when we view "who" receives the Father's love, hence His drawing. It is those who, when they see GOd, choose to obey what He has revealed them. Judas asked about "who" receives manifestation, Jesus did not say "Only My Sheep" he said:

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is an order in that passage:

1) The word is received
2) We obey the word
3) The father "then" loves us
4) Relationship occurs

But there is always the choice to obey or disobey.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

Paul teaches:

“Or does the potter not have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one object for honorable use, and another for common use? What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with great patience objects of wrath prepared for destruction? And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon objects of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, namely us, whom He also called, not only from among Jews, but also from among Gentiles,”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9‬:‭21‬-‭24‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Why would you believe that God has no right to elect and predestine. He is the potter. He can make what He wills with the lump of clay or should He ask the lump of clay what it wants to be? And we are His object of mercy which He prepared beforehand for glory.

Romans 9 is a whole topic of its own, to see my view, go to The Way and Free Will It is a massive topic and I can't fit it all in here.
 
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Hentenza

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But when we view "who" receives the Father's love, hence His drawing. It is those who, when they see GOd, choose to obey what He has revealed them. Judas asked about "who" receives manifestation, Jesus did not say "Only My Sheep" he said:

Joh 14:22-24 Judas (not Iscariot) said to Him, "Lord, how is it that You will manifest Yourself to us, and not to the world?" Jesus answered and said to him, "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words; and the word which you hear is not Mine but the Father's who sent Me.

There is an order in that passage:

1) The word is received
2) We obey the word
3) The father "then" loves us
4) Relationship occurs
And yet here is what Jesus teach us in John 6

No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. It is written in the Prophets: ‘And they shall all be taught of God.’ Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me. Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father. Truly, truly, I say to you, the one who believes has eternal life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6‬:‭44‬-‭47‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Jesus does not change His teachings. You have to let scripture guide you and not just choose verses that “seem” to agree with you. People that have not been drawn by God have a hardened heart and can not hear. The verse you cited only applies to those that have been drawn.

Jesus explains this in Mat. 13.

“And the disciples came up and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” And Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him. Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭13‬:‭10‬-‭13‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬
 
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FutureAndAHope

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People that have not been drawn by God have a hardened heart and can not hear.
What I believe is that a "hardened heart", comes through judicial hardening. God shows His word, man rejects the word, and so his heart is darkened.

Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools

2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is "love", love reaches out to all, it does not withhold. It is only after man rejects God that God's wrath is poured out, not before.

Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.

God opens ears, He does not hide His instruction from anyone, it is only after rejection of God, does God close the ears and eyes so man can not repent, being an apostate.
 
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Hentenza

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What I believe is that a "hardened heart", comes through judicial hardening. God shows His word, man rejects the word, and so his heart is darkened.
Im glad that you finally agree that God‘s will trumps man “free will”. There is action in God’s foreknowledge.
Rom 1:18-22 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Professing to be wise, they became fools
Who is them?
2Th 2:11-12 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

God is "love", love reaches out to all, it does not withhold. It is only after man rejects God that God's wrath is poured out, not before.
Who is them?
Job 36:10-12 He also opens their ear to instruction, And commands that they turn from iniquity. If they obey and serve Him, They shall spend their days in prosperity, And their years in pleasures. But if they do not obey, They shall perish by the sword, And they shall die without knowledge.
OT vs NT.
God opens ears, He does not hide His instruction from anyone, it is only after rejection of God, does God close the ears and eyes so man can not repent, being an apostate.
 
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Who is them?
"Them" are those that have rejected the knowledge of God. In both scriptures, they only received a darkened heart "because" they loved sin more than God.
 
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"Them" are those that have rejected the knowledge of God. In both scriptures, they only received a darkened heart "because" they loved sin more than God.
Actually yes and no. In Romans 1, them refers to only gentiles while in 2 Thessalonians 2 it refers to those living after the Holy Spirit is removed from the world and the great apostasy happens. Both refer to times without the ability to walk in the Spirit.
 
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Actually yes and no. In Romans 1, them refers to only gentiles while in 2 Thessalonians 2 it refers to those living after the Holy Spirit is removed from the world and the great apostasy happens. Both refer to times without the ability to walk in the Spirit.
Romans 1, refers to all mankind. Why would a gentile have a different "salvation" experience to a Jew?

As for the Holy Spirit being removed from the Earth, I don't believe any such thing will happen. The bible says:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Many such scriptures show that the church will be on earth at the time of the man of sin.
 
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Romans 1, refers to all mankind. Why would a gentile have a different "salvation" experience to a Jew?
It does not. Verses 26-32 describe Soddom and Gomorrah. For the first 600 years there was no Jew only gentiles. After Moses came the Jews which had the law. The gentiles did not have the law.

Therefore,

“For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law;”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

As for the Holy Spirit being removed from the Earth, I don't believe any such thing will happen. The bible says:

Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and he went to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Rev 13:7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe, tongue, and nation.

Many such scriptures show that the church will be on earth at the time of the man of sin.


“Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? And you know what restrains him now, so that he will be revealed in his time. For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is removed.”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭2‬:‭5‬-‭7‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

Who do you think is the one that restrains him now? Who will be removed?
 
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