Romans 5:19 uses many to refer to those who are made sinners in Adam and also uses many for those who because of Jesus will be made righteous.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T10:40:32-0500

Romans 5:19 " For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
I have seen many times that people say in Matt 25:46 because in the English eternal is used for both sides of the equation, eternal punishment must be true or you don't have eternal life.
Now how do you explain Rom 5:19 using the same logic, either not all are disobedient or all those who are disobedient are the same many that will be made righteous, using your logic how do you square Rom 5:19 with Matt 25:46 ?

Clare73 · 2025-08-01T11:22:57-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Romans 5:19 " For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
I have seen many times that people say in Matt 25:46 because in the English eternal is used for both sides of the equation, eternal punishment must be true or you don't have eternal life.
Now how do you explain Rom 5:19 using the same logic, either not all are disobedient or all those who are disobedient are the same many that will be made righteous, using your logic how do you square Rom 5:19 with Matt 25:46 ?

"Many" neither necessarily includes nor excludes "all," so you interpret it in the light of all the NT. . .

d taylor · 2025-08-01T12:04:43-0500

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The many who were made sinners actually means all because all die. Just like Paul writes many died, but actually all died

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

But the grace of God is extended to all, but all will not receive God's grace of eternal life. All has received God's grace in that everyone's sin has been paid for and forgiven. They just now need to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, but many will not believe, so they will not receive God's grace and free gift of Eternal Life.

So
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · 2025-08-01T14:07:09-0500

Clare73 said:
"Many" neither necessarily includes nor excludes "all," so you interpret it in the light of all the NT. . .

Only, one should begin with the plain reading of the immediate context and interpret accordingly. Paul leaves zero ambiguity for the reader that would necessitate further examination outside of the immediate context.

It is not just “all” and “many” but rather “The All” and “The Many” ; which are one and the same as Paul compares and contrasts the global results of Adam’s disobedience with the global results of Christ’s obedience.

No use of “all” or “many” in any other NT passage can alter the meaning of this passage. In this instance … The All = The Many.

The only reason to interpret otherwise is due to one’s presumptions or theological construct. If you disagree, please demonstrate how the use of “all” or “many” in any other NT passage can alter the usage of “The All” and “The Many” in this passage.

Blessings,

Spiritual Jew · 2025-08-01T14:17:42-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Romans 5:19 " For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
I have seen many times that people say in Matt 25:46 because in the English eternal is used for both sides of the equation, eternal punishment must be true or you don't have eternal life.
Now how do you explain Rom 5:19 using the same logic, either not all are disobedient or all those who are disobedient are the same many that will be made righteous, using your logic how do you square Rom 5:19 with Matt 25:46 ?

We don't need to use the same logic with Romans 5:19 as many of us use in Matthew 25:46. That's a rule that you are making up.

Romans 5:19 indicates that many were made sinners because of the one man's disobedience with the one man being Adam, obviously. And we know that the many are all people in that case since all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Similarly, but not in exactly the same sense, many will be made righteous because of the obedience of the One (Jesus, obviously). There's nothing to demand that the many in this case has to also be all people. It's just many people. Obviously, not all people are made righteous. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. But, many will be just like Paul said.

Clare73 · 2025-08-01T14:36:25-0500

d taylor said:
-The many who were made sinners actually means all because all die. Just like Paul writes many died, but actually all died

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

But the grace of God is extended to all, but all will not receive God's grace of eternal life. All has received God's grace in that everyone's sin has been paid for and forgiven. They just now need to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, but many will not believe,

The NT is correctly understood in the light of all the NT, where all are in Adam and many are in Christ.
LIkewise, Christ's atoning sacrifice was only for the people of God and not for all, just as the OT atoning sacrifice was only for the people of God and not for all.

d taylor said:
so they will not receive God's grace and free gift of Eternal Life.

So
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

And "many" means those in Adam and those in Christ as determined by the rest of the NT, where all are in Adam, and some are in Christ.

Clare73 · 2025-08-01T14:50:38-0500

Free2bHeretical4Him! said:
Only, one should begin with the plain reading of the immediate context and interpret accordingly. Paul leaves zero ambiguity for the reader that would necessitate further examination outside of the immediate context.

You seek to overthrow the governing rule that Scripture agrees with itself in the light of all Scripture, and
if a interpretation is not agreement with all Scripture, it is necessarily incorrect.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T15:11:32-0500

d taylor said:
-

The many who were made sinners actually means all because all die. Just like Paul writes many died, but actually all died

But the free gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many.

But the grace of God is extended to all, but all will not receive God's grace of eternal life. All has received God's grace in that everyone's sin has been paid for and forgiven. They just now need to believe in Jesus for Eternal Life, but many will not believe, so they will not receive God's grace and free gift of Eternal Life.

So
For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous.

If the first many means all then the many for the second must follow also as all, not just all have an opportunity.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T15:16:00-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
We don't need to use the same logic with Romans 5:19 as many of us use in Matthew 25:46. That's a rule that you are making up.

Romans 5:19 indicates that many were made sinners because of the one man's disobedience with the one man being Adam, obviously. And we know that the many are all people in that case since all have sinned (Romans 3:23). Similarly, but not in exactly the same sense, many will be made righteous because of the obedience of the One (Jesus, obviously). There's nothing to demand that the many in this case has to also be all people. It's just many people. Obviously, not all people are made righteous. That is not taught anywhere in scripture. But, many will be just like Paul said.

You are not being true to the text, its the same many for both sides of the equation, you can't have the first many mean all but the second many, which refers to the same group, as only some. This is not being true with the context of the verse.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-08-01T15:18:37-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
You are not being true to the text, its the same many for both sides of the equation, you can't have the first many mean all but the second many, which refers to the same group, as only some. This is not being true with the context of the verse.

It's being true with the context of all scripture. I'm not willing to interpret Romans 5:19 in a way that contradicts many other scriptures as you do. What I said is sound. Many can mean all or it can mean many, but not all. There is nothing, except your man-made rule, to suggest that the many in each case have to refer to all the same people.

Look at what Paul did here....

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Do you try to claim that all who die are the same as the all who will be made alive in Christ when He comes again? Paul indicated that the all who will be made alive in Christ when He comes are "those who belong to him". All people, saved and lost, are "in Adam" and die, but only those who are saved are in Christ and belong to Him. So, this passage proves that the same word being used more than once in a verse does not mean it has to mean the same thing and refer to the same people each time.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T15:23:05-0500

Clare73 said:
You seek to overthrow the governing rule that Scripture agrees with itself in the light of all Scripture, and
if a interpretation is not agreement with all Scripture, it is necessarily incorrect.

In that thinking, which I agree with, ECT is necessarily incorrect because it is not agreement with scripture as defined by the original Greek. This is why UR is the only lense that agrees with scripture as originally written, when aion and aionios are translated correctly the rest of the scriptures are in harmony, but when translated as eternal, many scriptures are ignored or words changed to make it fit, because it is necessarily incorrect,

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T15:38:11-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
It's being true with the context of all scripture. I'm not willing to interpret Romans 5:19 in a way that contradicts many other scriptures as you do. What I said is sound. Many can mean all or it can mean many, but not all. There is nothing, except your man-made rule, to suggest that the many in each case have to refer to all the same people.

Look at what Paul did here....

1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive. 23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.

Do you try to claim that all who die are the same as the all who will be made alive in Christ? Paul indicated that the all who will be made alive in Christ when He comes are "those who belong to him". All people, saved and lost, are "in Adam" and die, but only those who are saved are in Christ and belong to Him. So, this passage proves that the same word being used more than once in a verse does not mean it has to mean the same thing and refer to the same people each time.

I believe that the context of scripture is that ! Tim 2:3-6 This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our savior, who will have all men saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
1 Tim 4:9-11 because we trust in the living God, who is the savior of all men, especially of those who believe.
Acts 3:21 In Jesus Christ is the restoration of all things , which God has spoken by the mouths of all his holy prophets since the world began.
2 Cor 5:9 In Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting peoples trespasses against them, and he has given us the message of reconciliation.
John 12:47 Jesus came to save the cosmos not to judge it
Phil 2:9-10 Every knee should bow of those in heaven, and those on earth, and those under the earth. and every tongue gladly confess that Jesus is Lord.
This is the context of scripture, its about a God who loves his creation and will stop at nothing till as 2 Cor 15:28 says " God will be all in all" that is the context of scripture.

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T15:45:42-0500

Clare73 said:
The NT is correctly understood in the light of all the NT, where all are in Adam and many are in Christ.
LIkewise, Christ's atoning sacrifice was only for the people of God and not for all, just as the OT atoning sacrifice was only for the people of God and not for all.

And "many" means those in Adam and those in Christ as determined by the rest of the NT, where all are in Adam, and some are in Christ.

So you do not believe 2 Cor 5:14 For the love of Christ controls us , since we have concluded this, THAT CHRIST DIED FOR ALL: THEREFORE ALL HAVE DIED. The idea that Jesus only died for the elect is just not scriptural, its a false tradition handed down from gnostic theology. Calvinism has its roots in gnostic theology, and if the root is bad the tree is bad and so is its fruit.

Free2bHeretical4Him! · 2025-08-01T16:22:30-0500

Clare73 said:
You seek to overthrow the governing rule that Scripture agrees with itself in the light of all Scripture, and
if a interpretation is not agreement with all Scripture, it is necessarily incorrect.

I have no issue with Scripture interpreting Scripture as long as it does not cause one to “impose” or “alter” the plain reading and immediate surrounding context of the passage in question, in order to accommodate one’s personal theological construct. That is NOT harmonizing Scripture with Scripture. Each passage of Scripture should be able and allowed to stand on its own. THEN and only then should we should seek harmony among the rest of holy writ.

Now, Please demonstrate for me and stop dodging the question I proposed to you:

No use of “all” or “many” in any other NT passage can alter the meaning of this passage. In this instance … The All = The Many.

The only reason to interpret otherwise is due to one’s presumptions or theological construct. If you disagree, please demonstrate how the use of “all” or “many” in any other NT passage can alter the usage of “The All” and “The Many” in this passage.

Blessings

Hentenza · 2025-08-01T17:21:55-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Romans 5:19 " For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."
I have seen many times that people say in Matt 25:46 because in the English eternal is used for both sides of the equation, eternal punishment must be true or you don't have eternal life.
Now how do you explain Rom 5:19 using the same logic, either not all are disobedient or all those who are disobedient are the same many that will be made righteous, using your logic how do you square Rom 5:19 with Matt 25:46 ?

Are you suggesting that many means that some were not infected by Adam’s sin?

Jeff Saunders · 2025-08-01T21:25:30-0500

Hentenza said:
Are you suggesting that many means that some were not infected by Adam’s sin?

No it is to show that the word many in this passage means all on both sides.

Hoping2 · 2025-08-01T21:49:33-0500

Jeff Saunders said:
Romans 5:19 " For as through the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous."

Which version of the KJ bible are you using ?
There is no "the" before either use of the word "many" in the KJ bible.
That addition skews the message.

Jeff Saunders said:
I have seen many times that people say in Matt 25:46 because in the English eternal is used for both sides of the equation, eternal punishment must be true or you don't have eternal life.
Now how do you explain Rom 5:19 using the same logic, either not all are disobedient or all those who are disobedient are the same many that will be made righteous, using your logic how do you square Rom 5:19 with Matt 25:46 ?

Many descendants of Adam ended up as sinners.
Through Jesus Christ, many have been, and will be, made righteous.
All the righteous were once unrighteous.
But not all the unrighteous will be made righteous.

Romans 5:19 uses many to refer to those who are made sinners in Adam and also uses many for those who because of Jesus will be made righteous.

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