Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

I don't see how this is relevant. Are you saying we must allow Muslims to practice their religion as they see fit in Christian societies?

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As long as Muslims practice their religion within the laws of the lands they live in, what business is it of ours how they live their lives?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Do you want Islam to spread without resistance?

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What type of resistance do you suggest using against Islam?

JosephZ said:

As long as Muslims practice their religion within the laws of the societies they live in, what business is it of ours how they live their lives?

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Muslims, if allowed to grow as a community, will impose their way of life on the country at large. Is this a good outcome? Should we as Christians desire the growth of Islam in formally Christian dominated countries?

JosephZ said:

What type of resistance do you suggest using against Islam?

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I'd suggest regulating the worst excesses as well as not allowing Muslims in to non Western societies, as much as possible.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Except we don't have specific guidance for any situation from the bible alone. Hence your attempts to answer my questions about what Christians ought to have done have been utterly incoherent.

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You argue that the Bible alone isn't sufficient for guidance, so we must create our own policies to form a Christian nation and control non-Christians. Essentially, you're saying we're responsible for determining how we live.

I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

The majority of Christians in USA are Protestant and share similar beliefs like I do. Can a Protestant majority establish a Christian nation in USA and create laws based on Protestant principles?

If we apply that principle, we could create a law stating that those who pray to Mary are not considered true Christians. We can create law that churches that display pictures or symbols, similar to practices in some Orthodox churches, are subject to closure, and individuals who worship in these churches may not be officially recognized as Christians.

How about we come up with a law that said everyone must believe Jesus was born in America and gave the Book of Morman to his faithful! Everyone must have multiple wives as Book of Morman said.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

You argue that the Bible alone isn't sufficient for guidance, so we must create our own policies to form a Christian nation and control non-Christians. Essentially, you're saying we're responsible for determining how we live.

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It isn't because it doesn't address everything. Thus we have to rely on sacred tradition, the lives of Christians before us and come to some basic determinations. You for instance cannot even know what the bible is without the tradition which outlines the Canon of authentic books from non authentic ones. Nor would you have a bible if it was not transmitted by past Christians whom you hate and despise as apostates.

I am not saying we must form a Christian nation. Rather I allow for that possibility as a good that follows from successfully converting the masses. That Christians as a community are allowed some measure of control and sovereignty over their lives.

Unlike you I don't believe Christians are only a serf class. We can rightfully influence culture and society and even law. Would you have liked the West to have preserved crucifixion as a punishment instead of get rid of it because of our Lord? Would you have liked the West to have been dominated by Islam because that's essentially what you've advocated throughout this whole discussion. That Christians do have the ability or right to rule themselves therefore we need non Christians to rule over us. It's madness and you are being so slimy when discussing hopefully out of ignorance.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

The majority of Christians in USA are Protestant and share similar beliefs like I do. Can a Protestant majority establish a Christian nation in USA and create laws based on Protestant principles?

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Yes they can. I have no moral objection to this. Notice how I am actually addressing your hypothetical? Are you ready to address mine?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

If we apply that principle, we could create a law stating that those who pray to Mary are not considered true Christians. We can create law that churches that display pictures or symbols, similar to practices in some Orthodox churches, are subject to closure, and individuals who worship in these churches may not be officially recognized as Christians.

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They absolutely could do that. It would just mean they are my enemies. I guess you're trying to argue for American secularism (a non biblical worldview btw) and therefore all religions need to be tolerated but I simply don't accept that paradigm. We don't need to accept Satanism as a legitimate religion for instance. All Christians (except maybe Progressives and Episcopalians) can agree on that.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

How about we come up with a law that said everyone must believe Jesus was born in America and gave the Book of Morman to his faithful! Everyone must have multiple wives as Book of Morman said.

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Why would you support this law given you don't believe in the book of Mormon? Or are you a Mormon or something?

Faith i want to ask you one other question. Should we support the modern Nation state of Israel as Christians?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

It isn't because it doesn't address everything. Thus we have to rely on sacred tradition, the lives of Christians before us and come to some basic determinations. You for instance cannot even know what the bible is without the tradition which outlines the Canon of authentic books from non authentic ones. Nor would you have a bible if it was not transmitted by past Christians whom you hate and despise as apostates.

I am not saying we must form a Christian nation. Rather I allow for that possibility as a good that follows from successfully converting the masses. That Christians as a community are allowed some measure of control and sovereignty over their lives.

Unlike you I don't believe Christians are only a serf class. We can rightfully influence culture and society and even law. Would you have liked the West to have preserved crucifixion as a punishment instead of get rid of it because of our Lord? Would you have liked the West to have been dominated by Islam because that's essentially what you've advocated throughout this whole discussion. That Christians do have the ability or right to rule themselves therefore we need non Christians to rule over us. It's madness and you are being so slimy when discussing hopefully out of ignorance.

Yes they can. I have no moral objection to this. Notice how I am actually addressing your hypothetical? Are you ready to address mine?

They absolutely could do that. It would just mean they are my enemies. I guess you're trying to argue for American secularism (a non biblical worldview btw) and therefore all religions need to be tolerated but I simply don't accept that paradigm. We don't need to accept Satanism as a legitimate religion for instance. All Christians (except maybe Progressives and Episcopalians) can agree on that.

Why would you support this law given you don't believe in the book of Mormon? Or are you a Mormon or something?

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Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

We will take your advice in America. Majority protestant create it’s own Christian Nation and ban every other faith regardless what it is; Islam , Catholicism orthodox Christianity , Hinduism etc. is that the kind of Christian nation you are advocating?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Faith i want to ask you one other question. Should we support the modern Nation state of Israel as Christians?

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I support the current Nation of Isreal unconditionally with blank check. I wish US would send more then 3 billion a year in Isreal to defend and protect.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I support the current Nation of Isreal unconditionally with blank check. I wish US would send more then 3 billion a year in Isreal to defend and protect.

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Do you support a nation like Armenia with such unconditional love?

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

We will take your advice in America. Majority protestant create it’s own Christian Nation and ban every other faith regardless what it is; Islam , Catholicism orthodox Christianity , Hinduism etc. is that the kind of Christian nation you are advocating?

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Nope. Though I accept that as a real possibility.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Do you support a nation like Armenia with such unconditional love?

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I strongly support NATO and hope to see European democracies such as Armenia, Moldova, Latvia, and Ukraine join the alliance so we can defend them together.

FAITH-IN-HIM said:

I strongly support NATO and hope to see European democracies such as Armenia, Moldova, Latvia, and Ukraine join the alliance so we can defend them together.

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So you do participate and support political visions of the world. Only you support non Christian political visions. Do you think the Armenians were rightfully forced out of Ngorno Kharabach?

Because you seemed to give the impression that Christians can't be political. Or is that you believe scripture mandates us support on Western democracies and Israel unconditionally?

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Muslims, if allowed to grow as a community, will impose their way of life on the country at large. Is this a good outcome?

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I don't see that as ever becoming an issue here in the United States or there in New Zealand, where the Muslim populations are currently under 2%.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Should we as Christians desire the growth of Islam in formally Christian dominated countries?

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Why not? The presence of more Muslims in these countries leads to increased interactions between Christians and Muslims and gives Christians an opportunity to witness to them without having to go to some foreign land to do so. Think of it as the mission field coming to our backyards.

JosephZ said:

I don't see that as ever becoming an issue here in the United States or there in New Zealand, where the Muslim populations are currently under 2%.

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But it will be an issue in Europe and NZ is becoming less Christian due to immigration and increased secularism. So it's not merely a Muslim issue.

JosephZ said:

Why not? The presence of more Muslims in these countries leads to increased interactions between Christians and Muslims and gives Christians an opportunity to witness to them without having to go to some foreign land to do so. Think of it as the mission field coming to our backyards.

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Well no, it leads to new communities outgrowing any remaining Christian and secular communities especially in Western Nations. You won't convert these Muslims you invite to live among you.

Michie said:

Did the founders of America intend for God to be banished from the public arena?

The idea occurs so regularly in modern times that we tend to think it’s what the founders wanted. For example, recently, a law allowing the posting of the Ten Commandments in Louisiana schools has been blocked as unconstitutional (for the moment) by a court.

Yet one early American politician had the temerity to write and do the following:

• 1807. He wrote that “the councils of the General Government in their decisions … [were drawn from] the … precepts of the Gospel.”
• 1807. He wrote that “liberty to worship our creator … [is] deemed in other countries incompatible with good government, and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.”
• 1808. He signed an “Act Appointing a Chaplain to Each Brigade of the Army.”
• 1817. He wrote: “Our right to life, liberty … is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of kings.”

Of course, the “King of kings” refers to Jesus.

Continued below.

Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

Did the founders of America intend for God to be banished from the public arena

www.christianpost.com

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The bottom line is that political leaders will often lie because certain groups or lobbies will offer them extremely high levels of donations to their campaign as long as they will do what they are told to do. Often it is brilliant lawyers, economists, scientists who are working for a certain lobby who find out ways to get money into the campaigns of the elected officials who will do want they know needs to be done in order to achieve the goals of that lobby.

No, this idea that posting the ten commandments in a school is unconstitutional is nothing like what the people who wrote the Declaration of Independence visualized.

For example the documentary "How Big Oil Conquered the World" talks about how Al Gore's professor was part of a group who wanted to link the price and supply of oil to the fiat currencies of the USA and the world. A Carbon Tax accomplishes exactly that and APPEARS to go against BigOil.