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Dismantling Judeo-Christian values in America

JosephZ

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I don't see how this is relevant. Are you saying we must allow Muslims to practice their religion as they see fit in Christian societies?
As long as Muslims practice their religion within the laws of the lands they live in, what business is it of ours how they live their lives?

Do you want Islam to spread without resistance?
What type of resistance do you suggest using against Islam?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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As long as Muslims practice their religion within the laws of the societies they live in, what business is it of ours how they live their lives?

Muslims, if allowed to grow as a community, will impose their way of life on the country at large. Is this a good outcome? Should we as Christians desire the growth of Islam in formally Christian dominated countries?
What type of resistance do you suggest using against Islam?
I'd suggest regulating the worst excesses as well as not allowing Muslims in to non Western societies, as much as possible.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Except we don't have specific guidance for any situation from the bible alone. Hence your attempts to answer my questions about what Christians ought to have done have been utterly incoherent.
You argue that the Bible alone isn't sufficient for guidance, so we must create our own policies to form a Christian nation and control non-Christians. Essentially, you're saying we're responsible for determining how we live.

I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

The majority of Christians in USA are Protestant and share similar beliefs like I do. Can a Protestant majority establish a Christian nation in USA and create laws based on Protestant principles?

If we apply that principle, we could create a law stating that those who pray to Mary are not considered true Christians. We can create law that churches that display pictures or symbols, similar to practices in some Orthodox churches, are subject to closure, and individuals who worship in these churches may not be officially recognized as Christians.

How about we come up with a law that said everyone must believe Jesus was born in America and gave the Book of Morman to his faithful! Everyone must have multiple wives as Book of Morman said.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You argue that the Bible alone isn't sufficient for guidance, so we must create our own policies to form a Christian nation and control non-Christians. Essentially, you're saying we're responsible for determining how we live.

It isn't because it doesn't address everything. Thus we have to rely on sacred tradition, the lives of Christians before us and come to some basic determinations. You for instance cannot even know what the bible is without the tradition which outlines the Canon of authentic books from non authentic ones. Nor would you have a bible if it was not transmitted by past Christians whom you hate and despise as apostates.

I am not saying we must form a Christian nation. Rather I allow for that possibility as a good that follows from successfully converting the masses. That Christians as a community are allowed some measure of control and sovereignty over their lives.

Unlike you I don't believe Christians are only a serf class. We can rightfully influence culture and society and even law. Would you have liked the West to have preserved crucifixion as a punishment instead of get rid of it because of our Lord? Would you have liked the West to have been dominated by Islam because that's essentially what you've advocated throughout this whole discussion. That Christians do have the ability or right to rule themselves therefore we need non Christians to rule over us. It's madness and you are being so slimy when discussing hopefully out of ignorance.
I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

The majority of Christians in USA are Protestant and share similar beliefs like I do. Can a Protestant majority establish a Christian nation in USA and create laws based on Protestant principles?
Yes they can. I have no moral objection to this. Notice how I am actually addressing your hypothetical? Are you ready to address mine?
If we apply that principle, we could create a law stating that those who pray to Mary are not considered true Christians. We can create law that churches that display pictures or symbols, similar to practices in some Orthodox churches, are subject to closure, and individuals who worship in these churches may not be officially recognized as Christians.
They absolutely could do that. It would just mean they are my enemies. I guess you're trying to argue for American secularism (a non biblical worldview btw) and therefore all religions need to be tolerated but I simply don't accept that paradigm. We don't need to accept Satanism as a legitimate religion for instance. All Christians (except maybe Progressives and Episcopalians) can agree on that.
How about we come up with a law that said everyone must believe Jesus was born in America and gave the Book of Morman to his faithful! Everyone must have multiple wives as Book of Morman said.
Why would you support this law given you don't believe in the book of Mormon? Or are you a Mormon or something?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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It isn't because it doesn't address everything. Thus we have to rely on sacred tradition, the lives of Christians before us and come to some basic determinations. You for instance cannot even know what the bible is without the tradition which outlines the Canon of authentic books from non authentic ones. Nor would you have a bible if it was not transmitted by past Christians whom you hate and despise as apostates.

I am not saying we must form a Christian nation. Rather I allow for that possibility as a good that follows from successfully converting the masses. That Christians as a community are allowed some measure of control and sovereignty over their lives.

Unlike you I don't believe Christians are only a serf class. We can rightfully influence culture and society and even law. Would you have liked the West to have preserved crucifixion as a punishment instead of get rid of it because of our Lord? Would you have liked the West to have been dominated by Islam because that's essentially what you've advocated throughout this whole discussion. That Christians do have the ability or right to rule themselves therefore we need non Christians to rule over us. It's madness and you are being so slimy when discussing hopefully out of ignorance.

Yes they can. I have no moral objection to this. Notice how I am actually addressing your hypothetical? Are you ready to address mine?

They absolutely could do that. It would just mean they are my enemies. I guess you're trying to argue for American secularism (a non biblical worldview btw) and therefore all religions need to be tolerated but I simply don't accept that paradigm. We don't need to accept Satanism as a legitimate religion for instance. All Christians (except maybe Progressives and Episcopalians) can agree on that.

Why would you support this law given you don't believe in the book of Mormon? Or are you a Mormon or something?

Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

We will take your advice in America. Majority protestant create it’s own Christian Nation and ban every other faith regardless what it is; Islam , Catholicism orthodox Christianity , Hinduism etc. is that the kind of Christian nation you are advocating?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Faith i want to ask you one other question. Should we support the modern Nation state of Israel as Christians?
I support the current Nation of Isreal unconditionally with blank check. I wish US would send more then 3 billion a year in Isreal to defend and protect.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I support the current Nation of Isreal unconditionally with blank check. I wish US would send more then 3 billion a year in Isreal to defend and protect.
Do you support a nation like Armenia with such unconditional love?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Disclaimer: I do not subscribe to the following, but will present a hypothetical scenario.

We will take your advice in America. Majority protestant create it’s own Christian Nation and ban every other faith regardless what it is; Islam , Catholicism orthodox Christianity , Hinduism etc. is that the kind of Christian nation you are advocating?
Nope. Though I accept that as a real possibility.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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Do you support a nation like Armenia with such unconditional love?
I strongly support NATO and hope to see European democracies such as Armenia, Moldova, Latvia, and Ukraine join the alliance so we can defend them together.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I strongly support NATO and hope to see European democracies such as Armenia, Moldova, Latvia, and Ukraine join the alliance so we can defend them together.
So you do participate and support political visions of the world. Only you support non Christian political visions. Do you think the Armenians were rightfully forced out of Ngorno Kharabach?

Because you seemed to give the impression that Christians can't be political. Or is that you believe scripture mandates us support on Western democracies and Israel unconditionally?
 
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JosephZ

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Muslims, if allowed to grow as a community, will impose their way of life on the country at large. Is this a good outcome?
I don't see that as ever becoming an issue here in the United States or there in New Zealand, where the Muslim populations are currently under 2%.

Should we as Christians desire the growth of Islam in formally Christian dominated countries?
Why not? The presence of more Muslims in these countries leads to increased interactions between Christians and Muslims and gives Christians an opportunity to witness to them without having to go to some foreign land to do so. Think of it as the mission field coming to our backyards.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I don't see that as ever becoming an issue here in the United States or there in New Zealand, where the Muslim populations are currently under 2%.
But it will be an issue in Europe and NZ is becoming less Christian due to immigration and increased secularism. So it's not merely a Muslim issue.
Why not? The presence of more Muslims in these countries leads to increased interactions between Christians and Muslims and gives Christians an opportunity to witness to them without having to go to some foreign land to do so. Think of it as the mission field coming to our backyards.
Well no, it leads to new communities outgrowing any remaining Christian and secular communities especially in Western Nations. You won't convert these Muslims you invite to live among you.
 
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PatrickTate

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Did the founders of America intend for God to be banished from the public arena?

The idea occurs so regularly in modern times that we tend to think it’s what the founders wanted. For example, recently, a law allowing the posting of the Ten Commandments in Louisiana schools has been blocked as unconstitutional (for the moment) by a court.

Yet one early American politician had the temerity to write and do the following:

  • 1807. He wrote that “the councils of the General Government in their decisions … [were drawn from] the … precepts of the Gospel.”
  • 1807. He wrote that “liberty to worship our creator … [is] deemed in other countries incompatible with good government, and yet proved by our experience to be its best support.”
  • 1808. He signed an “Act Appointing a Chaplain to Each Brigade of the Army.”
  • 1817. He wrote: “Our right to life, liberty … is not left to the feeble and sophistical investigations of reason, but is impressed on the sense of every man. We do not claim these under the charters of kings or legislators, but under the King of kings.”
Of course, the “King of kings” refers to Jesus.

Continued below.
The bottom line is that political leaders will often lie because certain groups or lobbies will offer them extremely high levels of donations to their campaign as long as they will do what they are told to do. Often it is brilliant lawyers, economists, scientists who are working for a certain lobby who find out ways to get money into the campaigns of the elected officials who will do want they know needs to be done in order to achieve the goals of that lobby.

No, this idea that posting the ten commandments in a school is unconstitutional is nothing like what the people who wrote the Declaration of Independence visualized.

For example the documentary "How Big Oil Conquered the World" talks about how Al Gore's professor was part of a group who wanted to link the price and supply of oil to the fiat currencies of the USA and the world. A Carbon Tax accomplishes exactly that and APPEARS to go against BigOil.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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So you do participate and support political visions of the world. Only you support non Christian political visions. Do you think the Armenians were rightfully forced out of Ngorno Kharabach?

Because you seemed to give the impression that Christians can't be political. Or is that you believe scripture mandates us support on Western democracies and Israel unconditionally?
You asked if America or Americans should defend Armenia. Under the current NATO system, Armenia could receive support if it joins NATO.

If you don’t like it, then I don’t know what to tell you. I assume defending Armenian is not that important to you.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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But it will be an issue in Europe and NZ is becoming less Christian due to immigration and increased secularism. So it's not merely a Muslim issue.

Well no, it leads to new communities outgrowing any remaining Christian and secular communities especially in Western Nations. You won't convert these Muslims you invite to live among you.
Who do you define as Christian? Do you consider Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons to be Christians?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Who do you define as Christian? Do you consider Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons to be Christians?
No they aren't because they deny the Nicene Creed and it's contents. You likely deny the Nicene Creed as well but you at least submit to it's theology on the Trinity. At least i hope you do. I know you hate all church history and consider Christians before you as evil corruptors of the faith but even you have to agree with the Nicene Creed.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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You asked if America or Americans should defend Armenia. Under the current NATO system, Armenia could receive support if it joins NATO.

I asked if would support Armenia with the same sort of intensity you support Israel. Why do you care more about Jews than fellow Christians?
If you don’t like it, then I don’t know what to tell you. I assume defending Armenian is not that important to you.
I think it was awful that Armenians were forced out of their ancestral home of Ngorno Kharabach. I think what's even more strange is that restorationists like yourself value the lives, sovereignty and safety of Israel above that of fellow Christians. But you probably don't consider the Armenians fellow Christians thus they can be ignored. They definitely don't deserve the support unconditional support you give to Israel.

Israel here being a secular state composed of secular and religious Jews who deny Jesus as Christ and Lord. Can you explain why you love Jews more than Christians?
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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No they aren't because they deny the Nicene Creed and it's contents. You likely deny the Nicene Creed as well but you at least submit to it's theology on the Trinity. At least i hope you do. I know you hate all church history and consider Christians before you as evil corruptors of the faith but even you have to agree with the Nicene Creed.
Finally we have something in common; We both share belief in the Nicene Creed, which is essential to Christianity's foundation. We also uphold the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, as it is an essential foundation of Christianity. Additionally, we affirm our belief in the Resurrection of Christ and the promise of eternal life in heaven.

I believe in church history only as recorded in the 27 books of the New Testament; I do not accept anything outside of them.

That being said, there are several differences between us, just as I have various differences with other Protestant denominations. There are differing perspectives between my wife and me regarding the nature of salvation. She holds the view that individuals who sin may lose their salvation, while I believe that salvation is a gift granted by God's grace, rooted in His love, and therefore cannot be lost.

You have accurately identified the distinctions between other Christian groups and Jehovah's Witnesses as well as Mormons.
 
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FAITH-IN-HIM

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I asked if would support Armenia with the same sort of intensity you support Israel. Why do you care more about Jews than fellow Christians?

I think it was awful that Armenians were forced out of their ancestral home of Ngorno Kharabach. I think what's even more strange is that restorationists like yourself value the lives, sovereignty and safety of Israel above that of fellow Christians. But you probably don't consider the Armenians fellow Christians thus they can be ignored. They definitely don't deserve the support unconditional support you give to Israel.

Israel here being a secular state composed of secular and religious Jews who deny Jesus as Christ and Lord. Can you explain why you love Jews more than Christians?
I support Jews and Isreal because they are loved and chosen by God.

Whether you follow the 66 books of the Protestant Bible or the Orthodox Bible, the biblical text states clearly that Jews are God's chosen people. Throughout the Old Testament, God repeatedly assures Israel of His protection and consistently affirms His role as their Father.

In Romans, Paul dedicates three chapters to comparing Christian faith with Judaism. He also notes that Christians are branches, while Jews are the root.

Paul states in Romans that Christians are included in God’s plan due to the disobedience of the Jews and should not be prideful. He adds that, although God has temporarily rejected the Jews, He will ultimately welcome them again and offer eternal life to all.

In the book of Romans, Paul refers to a conversation between the prophet Elisha and God. Elisha expresses concern that the Jewish people have killed prophets, destroyed the temple, and eliminated all the faithful, claiming he is the only one left. Elisha questions why God would continue to save Israel. In response, God tells Elisha that despite acts of disobedience, there are seven thousand individuals who have remained faithful, and for their sake, God will continue to protect and bless Israel.


1 King 14: 14-18

He replied, “I have been very zealous for the Lord God Almighty. The Israelites have rejected your covenant, torn down your altars, and put your prophets to death with the sword. I am the only one left, and now they are trying to kill me too.”

15 The Lord said to him, “Go back the way you came, and go to the Desert of Damascus. When you get there, anoint Hazael king over Aram. 16 Also, anoint Jehu son of Nimshi king over Israel, and anoint Elisha son of Shaphat from Abel Meholah to succeed you as prophet. 17 Jehu will put to death any who escape the sword of Hazael, and Elisha will put to death any who escape the sword of Jehu. 18 Yet I reserve seven thousand in Israel—all whose knees have not bowed down to Baal and whose mouths have not kissed him.”


The Bible repeatedly states that the Jewish people are regarded as God's chosen people. It affirms that the nation of Israel has been, and will continue to be, protected by God. According to biblical texts, this protection is promised irrespective of obedience or disobedience.

Given this understanding of biblical teachings and God's intentions for Jews and Isreal, may I ask why you would choose not to offer them your unconditional support?
 
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