The Kingdom of God

Philip_B said:

Given that the passages all belong in the shared synoptic tradition, and each case this is used to transition from the account of the teaching about who Jesus is, and what following Jesus entails, and what follows in each case is the account of the Transfiguration. I am pretty sure the most natural reading of this would be the Transfiguration.

That being said, there is little doubt that the infant church saw an imminent return of Jesus in an eschatological setting, and for many, that was associated with the fall of Jerusalem. I do not think that the early Christians had any concept of the Church as we know it today.

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ViaCrucis said:

I think the Transfiguration is a pretty good example--certainly the three Apostles who went up the mountain with the Lord experienced the Lord in His glory as King.

However I think this is probably referring to the Ascension, the Son of Man taken up before the Ancient of Days and being given kingdom and power and authority. With the Ascension, Jesus takes His throne as King Messiah, and the result is the outpouring of the Spirit on Pentecost, and the inauguration of the sacred mission of the Church to proclaim Christ, His Gospel, and the kingdom. For Christ rules and reigns over and through His Church, and the Day is coming when He returns and hands all things over to the Father, including the kingdom (1 Corinthians 15:24) and God is all in all--new heavens and new earth.

I'm not adverse to understanding this as including the Transfiguration, the Ascension, Pentecost, the outpouring of the Spirit, etc; but I think the Ascension if the pivotal moment--the exaltation of the Messiah being taken and seated at the right hand of Majesty.

-CryptoLutheran

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RandyPNW said:

The only thing some of Jesus' disciples saw, before their death, was the Transfiguration. It was a preview of Jesus' 2nd Coming, but more than a vision it showed that the Kingdom was already in his hands, if not yet fully consummated on earth.

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bling said:

Christ is here now living in and through true mature Disciples. The kingdom came with Pentecost and the indwelling Holy Spirit available to everyone.

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CoreyD said:

All three accounts connect the transfiguration to Jesus promise. Matthew 16:28-17:2; Mark 9:1-3; Luke 9:27-29
Within a matter of days, they saw a vision of Jesus in a glorified state.
They thus saw the kingdom of God when it has come with power, in a vision.

On the other hand, people will see the kingdom of God when it has come with power after the tribulations, which is years into the future after the deaths of all those Jesus made that promise to. Matthew 24:30; Luke 19:11-27

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CoreyD said:

That's a great question.
The answer is none.

How many disciples were present when Jesus spoke those words? Luke tells us. Twelve. Luke 9:1, 12
How many of those saw the vision? Matthew, Mark and Luke tells us. Three.

Therefore, some did not taste death before seeing the kingdom of God come with power.
Some of those standing there, did taste death, before seeing the kingdom of God come with power.

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CoreyD said:

I hope you don't mind my asking, but did you read what I said? If you did, you did not understand what I said.
There's nothing in my post, hinting or suggesting that a disciple died 6-8 days later.
My answer to your question, is, none died before the transfiguration.

However, out of the twelve standing there, only three - Peter, James, and John, were privileged to see the kingdom of God come with power... in a vision.
That means that the remaining nine standing there, who died later than the transfiguration, did not see the kingdom of God come with power... either in vision, or reality.
So, some did taste death, before seeing the kingdom of God coming with power. In fact, they have not seen it.

The kingdom of God coming with power- not in a vision, but in reality, will occur after the tribulation. Matthew 24:30; Luke 19:11-27

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CoreyD said:

Some of those standing there, did taste death, before seeing the kingdom of God come with power.

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CoreyD said:

I'm trying to follow what you are saying, and think I understand.
I'll try to cover everything, just in case I might be missing something.

So, Peter, James and John - some of those standing there, did not taste death, until they saw the kingdom of God coming with power.
They saw the kingdom of God coming with power a few days after Jesus' promise.
The vision of the transfiguration was the kingdom of God coming with power.
How do we know?
All three Gospel accounts refer to what happened a few days after Jesus' words, linking the transfiguration vision to the kingdom of God coming with power.

We need not assume Jesus was saying anything else, like maybe a city coming down out of heaven, or a white horse on the clouds.
Seeing the kingdom come, can be as simple as seeing a representation of the kingdom.
For example, in the vision, Jesus' face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.
Mark says, His clothes became dazzling white, whiter than anyone in the world could bleach them.
Luke says, As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.

This is glory, we agree.
Matthew 24:30 reads, ...They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
A cloud did cover them, and God's voice was heard. Can we see Jesus' power. It's not a physical element.
So, Matthew 24:30, actually compares to the transfiguration... Only, the latter, is a vision, while the former is the actual occurrence

We can say then, that the three disciples on that mountain, saw the kingdom of God coming with power, because they saw the glorified king - Jesus Christ, in all his power.

We also have confirmation from Peter himself.
Recall what Peter later said.
2 Peter 1:16-19
16 For we did not follow cleverly devised fables when we made known to you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but we were eyewitnesses of His majesty.
17 For He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to Him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”
18 And we ourselves heard this voice from heaven when we were with Him on the holy mountain.
19 We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt. And you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts.

Peter connects the transfiguration vision, to the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.
So, we have scriptural evidence, both from the context, and verified eyewitness testimony.


Just then there appeared in glorious splendor, before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus
Peter said to Jesus, ‘Rabbi, it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters – one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.’ (He did not know what to say, they were so frightened.)
They did not realize what they were seeing was a vision, but Jesus made that clear. Matthew 17:9

What about Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus?
Luke 9:31, 32

31 They spoke about his departure,[a] which he was about to bring to fulfilment at Jerusalem. 32 Peter and his companions were very sleepy, but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.​

What they represent, is left to the discernment of those whom Jesus has appointed as a light to the nations.
However, Peter can help. In the same verses 2 Peter 1:16-19, verse 19 says in part... We also have the word of the prophets as confirmed beyond doubt.

Two great prophets were in the vision.
Peter draws attention to the word of the prophets as confirmation beyond any doubt.
Whether that pertains to what Peter heard these prophets say on that mountain, or past words of these prophets, we can connect the prophets Elijah and Moses, to Peter's words, which could/might shed light on why they were in the vision.

I see that connection, but perhaps someone else sees something else.
I don't think we can be dogmatic about the significance of Moses and Elijah conversing with Jesus.


A vision of that event would also signify that. Would you agree?

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FireDragon76 said:

That's an excellent example.

The concept of glory in Hebrew, kavod, literally means "weight", and can refer to theophanies or mystical encounters like that. This isn't just a poetic metaphor necessarily. It refers to a real sense of presence that has overwhelming existential weight: a numinous experience. It doesn't refer to glory necessarily in the way that it's often used poetically in the modern world, as a metaphor for earthly grandeur or power.

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