That may be what is hoped, but that's not how it works.
The "horse manure" rule goes into effect.
Everyone involved in horse manure smells like horse manure.
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Should pulpits remain silent on politics?
- Thread starter Michie
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The "horse manure" rule goes into effect.
Everyone involved in horse manure smells like horse manure.
- Mar 18, 2004
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We aren’t commanded to do anything but love God, love others and make disciples of all nations.
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So you really can't vote for fear of supporting a less than perfect candidate even to stop a worse candidate?
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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Your whole running point seems to be that we need to become a Christian nation and we should not partner with persons with other points of view and we should put our trust in a church that will force these changes (which I have only seen work by using very unChristian tactics), and on and on. I pointed out the three things we have been commanded to do by Christ. That’s ALL He commands us to do. It seems radically different from what you are ascribing to.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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When did I say we have to become a Christian Nation? I suggested we shouldn't support an Empire like the USA.
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It is implied in all of your comments, including this one. This is the problem - you offer no solution when you make statements like this, when the USA has the best designed foundational governing documents that allow freedom of worship of every country on earth. You complain and complain but offer no solution. If we shouldn’t support an empire like the US, what should we do? We have to live somewhere. Yet behind your comments it feels like your suggestion is that we make the US a Christian nation. From the moment you first engaged with my comments, that is the overwhelming feeling you have projected. So if that is not your opinion, what IS your suggestion? Where is there a nation that is a better place to live?
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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I'm not offering a comprehensive system as a replacement model and that's your problem? Did thr early Christians who undermined Pagan Rome and transformed that state away from what it was in the times before Christ have to offer a complete system as a replacement? No, all they had to do was live according to their values and not be bound by the values of Pagan Rome and that is what I am suggesting regarding the USA. Christians should live according to Christian values and not feel ashamed of having influence on power as so many Christians are because of a subservience to secular enlightenment.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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Funny, when I said the same thing as you (living our values) you asked what did that have to do with anything.
But, be that as it may, you are still ignoring the fact that the world, in general, not just the USA, has become a post-Christian world. Christians are not in power in many places because of the hatred the world has for people with faith and convictions, not because of subservience. The balance of power needs to be restored so that it is possible that people with conviction can be voted into office. It can’t just be done because you say it should be done. IMO, though, the pendulum is starting to swing back, which gives hope, but until balance is restored, the best that most of us common people can do is what Christ commands us to do. Love God. Love other people. Make disciples. God’s timing is always perfect. He knows when the best time for things to happen is.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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Well the world didn't have to become post Christian but it did as a result of enlightenment liberal values capturing the mind of Western man in particular. Christians assented to this and subordinated their own consciences to those values and as a result we see a society which is radically opposed to the values we would hold dear. For instance most Christians would defend the individual freedom to blaspheme, something unthinkable for most of Christian history and it really isn't a coincidence we've become less Christian as society has removed Christian restrictions on everything. We have become what the enlightenment promised and if Christians wish to challenge that order they need to reject it and live contrary to that value set.
Easier said than done I know and im not offering myself as an example but I can recognize a bad political order which is exemplified by the West as it stands now.
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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Alright, therefore do you oppose Christian political order because it is ineffective at defending itself? Is this Universal or merely in the case of Western Rome? The Empire should have remained Pagan?
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Ignatius the Kiwi
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In an ultimate sense yes, no nation will be perfect. Why however does that mean we wouldnt seek to improve it or align said nation or institution with good stewardship and proper morality?
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