Pentecostalism's Formidable Opponent

rocknanchor · Wednesday at 8:24 AM

''John McArthur, the de facto leader of one of American Protestantism’s major contemporary wings, died on July 14, 2025, at the age of 86, ,

To many Christians, MacArthur’s major theological battles were with Pentecostals, and many saw great confusion, even harm, to the church. He championed what he called “Cessationism,” the argument that the Gifts of the Spirit — ministry blessings conferred to Christian converts in the Age of the Apostles, nine in number, including gifts of healing, wisdom, prophecy, ecstatic prayer, knowledge — were obsolete after the first century. Pentecostals asked for a Biblical citation about their expiration, but none exists.''

SOURCE

chevyontheriver · Wednesday at 10:16 AM

rocknanchor said:
''John McArthur, the de facto leader of one of American Protestantism’s major contemporary wings, died on July 14, 2026, at the age of 86, ,

To many Christians, MacArthur’s major theological battles were with Pentecostals, and many saw great confusion, even harm, to the church. He championed what he called “Cessationism,” the argument that the Gifts of the Spirit — ministry blessings conferred to Christian converts in the Age of the Apostles, nine in number, including gifts of healing, wisdom, prophecy, ecstatic prayer, knowledge — were obsolete after the first century. Pentecostals asked for a Biblical citation about their expiration, but none exists.''

SOURCE

I didn't realize he was anti-Pentecostal too. I knew of him as a strident anti-Catholic.

ozso · Wednesday at 7:26 PM

chevyontheriver said:
I didn't realize he was anti-Pentecostal too. I knew of him as a strident anti-Catholic.

As far as I know all of Christianity except for the charismatic segment disagrees with Pentecostalism.

chevyontheriver · Wednesday at 10:03 PM

ozso said:
As far as I know all of Christianity except for the charismatic segment disagrees with Pentecostalism.

Back to MacArthur, he did seem to have a well defined sense of who his enemies were.

Rose_bud · Thursday at 12:00 AM

ozso said:
As far as I know all of Christianity except for the charismatic segment disagrees with Pentecostalism.

Intersting, this is news.

ozso · Thursday at 12:12 AM

Rose_bud said:
Intersting, this is news.

I should say disagrees with the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues. That's not found in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist etc doctrine. The Pentecostal denomonation didn't even exist until the 20th century. Another thing MacArthur would disagree with is the Pentecostal teaching that one can lose their salvation.

ozso · Thursday at 12:26 AM

chevyontheriver said:
Back to MacArthur, he did seem to have a well defined sense of who his enemies were.

He had his list of what he considered false teaching, doctrine, theology. And of course he himself was on the list of false teachers others had. I think he was too heavy-handed regarding his criticism of the Catholic Church.

Rose_bud · Thursday at 12:56 AM

ozso said:
I should say disagrees with the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues. That's not found in Catholic, Orthodox, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist etc doctrine. The Pentecostal denomonation didn't even exist until the 20th century.

It's interesting you say that they disagree with the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues, yet this is found in the Bible, it did not originate in the 20th century it occurred after Jesus ascension about 10 days later. It's prominence may have been sparked in the 20th century, but it's not un-biblical or a new phenomenon.

ozso said:
Another thing MacArthur would disagree with is the Pentecostal teaching that one can lose their salvation.

I don't think this is necessarily a Pentecostal teaching.

ozso · Thursday at 1:53 AM

Rose_bud said:
It's interesting you say that they disagree with the Pentecostal doctrine regarding speaking in tongues, yet this is found in the Bible, it did not originate in the 20th century it occurred after Jesus ascension about 10 days later. It's prominence may have been sparked in the 20th century, but it's not un-biblical or a new phenomenon.

It's biblical but it wasn't practiced beyond the 1st century. Not that I'm denouncing the Pentecostal denomonation. I've attended Pentecostal churches going back 47 years. But facts are facts.

Rose_bud said:
I don't think this is necessarily a Pentecostal teaching.

No, definitely not. The Pentecostal denomonation teaches Arminianism as does the Methodist and some Baptist denominations. Whereas MacArthur was a Calvinist. There's a prominent Arminianism vs Calvinism debate in Protestantism.

Rose_bud · Thursday at 2:13 AM

ozso said:
It's biblical but it wasn't practiced beyond the 1st century. Not that I'm denouncing the Pentecostal denomonation. I've attended Pentecostal churches going back 47 years. But facts are facts.

Do you mean that certain gifts were not practiced openly. The baptism of the Spirit (Pentecost) and gifts does not/did not cease, if it did no person would be empowered to live out their Christian faith, the mission of Christ would have ended abruptly after the 1st century. This is what makes MacArthur's statements controversial i.e. that certain gifts ceased with the apostles and the completion of the canon. His facts were based on his cessationist perspective. I believe he had a problem with the movement and its teachings, as if somehow it becoming more prominent now makes it unbiblical.

ozso · Thursday at 3:43 AM

Rose_bud said:
Do you mean that certain gifts were not practiced openly. The baptism of the Spirit (Pentecost) and gifts does not/did not cease, if it did no person would be empowered to live out their Christian faith, the mission of Christ would have ended abruptly after the 1st century. This is what makes MacArthur's statements controversial i.e. that certain gifts ceased with the apostles and the completion of the canon. His facts were based on his cessationist perspective. I believe he had a problem with the movement and its teachings, as if somehow it becoming more prominent now makes it unbiblical.

I'm sure MacArthur believed in gifts from the Holy Spirit such as faith, wisdom, discernment, knowledge, healing and God Himself performing miracles. But not people manifesting supernatural abilities of speaking in tongues, prophesying and performing instantaneous miraculous healings. There are Pentecostal and Charismatic churches where all of that takes place every service. The traditional view of glossolalia aka speaking in tongues is being able to preach the gospel in a language you never learned. Like of you only speak English but you're able though the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel in Afrikaans to those who only understand Afrikaans. Rather than it being speaking in some unknown personal prayer language. And I don't think there's any instance these days where someone has gone to a foreign country and was able to supernaturally preach the gospel in the language of that foreign country.

Rose_bud · Thursday at 4:03 AM

ozso said:
I'm sure MacArthur believed in gifts from the Holy Spirit such as faith, wisdom, discernment, knowledge, healing and God Himself performing miracles. But not people manifesting supernatural abilities of speaking in tongues, prophesying and performing instantaneous miraculous healings. There are Pentecostal and Charismatic churches where all of that takes place every service. The traditional view of glossolalia aka speaking in tongues is being able to preach the gospel in a language you never learned. Like of you only speak English but you're able though the Holy Spirit to preach the gospel in Afrikaans to those who only understand Afrikaans. Rather than it being speaking in some unknown personal prayer language. And I don't think there's any instance these days where someone has gone to a foreign country and was able to supernaturally preach the gospel in the language of that foreign country.

I respectfully disagree with MacArthur on these points. I believe in all of the gifts not limiting the Holy Spirit in His giving and manifestation of His gift. I understand tongues as a heavenly language for personal edification, and as a gift to the body, as a sign to those present, and as a supernatural ability to understand God's Word in a discernible language.
Given the very nature of the supernatural, I find it challenging to confine God within rigid boundaries. Not that I don't recognize that excess can masquerade as Godly "spirituality", I think it's unfounded to dismiss the power of God simply because it doesn't fit into a predefined neat little category or in a predefined epoch.

ozso · Thursday at 4:59 AM

Rose_bud said:
I respectfully disagree with MacArthur on these points. I believe in all of the gifts not limiting the Holy Spirit in His giving and manifestation of His gift. I understand tongues as a heavenly language for personal edification, and as a gift to the body, as a sign to those present, and as a supernatural ability to understand God's Word in a discernible language.
Given the very nature of the supernatural, I find it challenging to confine God within rigid boundaries. Not that I don't recognize that excess can masquerade as Godly "spirituality", I think it's unfounded to dismiss the power of God simply because it doesn't fit into a predefined neat little category or in a predefined epoch.

I'd say from MacArthur's perspective it's not a matter of what God can or can't do, but rather what God does and doesn't do. God can enable people to walk on water. But who has done so other than Peter briefly? God can give us the ability to walk on water, but he doesn't.

rocknanchor · Thursday at 5:32 AM

Rose_bud said:
I don't think this is necessarily a Pentecostal teaching.

Fringe at best.

rocknanchor · Thursday at 5:38 AM

chevyontheriver said:
I didn't realize he was anti-Pentecostal too. I knew of him as a strident anti-Catholic.

Back atcha, I didn't realize he was anti-Catholic.

rocknanchor · Thursday at 5:53 AM

ozso said:
As far as I know all of Christianity except for the charismatic segment disagrees with Pentecostalism.

That's understandable. Safe to say, all the liturgical wing view Pentecostals as born out of obscurity, but find them rigorous defenders of the faith.

Rose_bud · Thursday at 6:02 AM

ozso said:
I'd say from MacArthur's perspective it's not a matter of what God can or can't do, but rather what God does and doesn't do. God can enable people to walk on water. But who has done so other than Peter briefly? God can give us the ability to walk on water, but he doesn't.

From my perspective and experiences and what I've seen and heard others say about what He's done, and then give Him glory for it. I believe He does do the miraculous.

If people walking on water would demonstrate that He governs the elements as the Sovereign Creator God and they would need that to come to faith in Jesus the Son, who died, rose and ascended. I believe in His infinite wisdom God can and does work in these ways, active and present in the world. It may not fit MacArthur's worldview, and it may not be what everyone needs as a nudge toward understanding that God is all powerful. But yes, I believe this is how He can and does operate even if only for one person.

People often say Gods power is not demonstrated in this way. Show me how He demonstrated it; actually no its not the manner and way it should be demonstrated . I believe it when I see it but only if its according to how I expect to see it - a weird paradox.

enoob57 · Thursday at 7:23 AM

rocknanchor said:
''John McArthur, the de facto leader of one of American Protestantism’s major contemporary wings, died on July 14, 2026, at the age of 86, ,

To many Christians, MacArthur’s major theological battles were with Pentecostals, and many saw great confusion, even harm, to the church. He championed what he called “Cessationism,” the argument that the Gifts of the Spirit — ministry blessings conferred to Christian converts in the Age of the Apostles, nine in number, including gifts of healing, wisdom, prophecy, ecstatic prayer, knowledge — were obsolete after the first century. Pentecostals asked for a Biblical citation about their expiration, but none exists.''

SOURCE

This is simply not true the verse you’re wanting shows that so
John 20:29 (KJV)

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

rocknanchor · Thursday at 8:35 AM

enoob57 said:
This is simply not true the verse you’re wanting shows that so
John 20:29 (KJV)

29Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed.

No doubt, a solid reminder for those of us who have our eyes fixed on Jesus, not on the miraculous that God will continue to do (Mk 16:17, Gal 3:5)

enoob57 · Thursday at 10:13 AM

rocknanchor said:
No doubt, a solid reminder for those of us who have our eyes fixed on Jesus, not on the miraculous that God will continue to do (Mk 16:17, Gal 3:5)

It’s quite simple really, the charismatic movement is simply trying to solidify the spiritual truth that is from God through the flesh, which is unredeemed … The obvious is in Daniel speaks of when the last days are
Daniel 12:4 (KJV)
4But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.

Jesus while here on earth warned us that in the last days signs and wonders would be performed by the devil
Matthew 24:24-25 (KJV)
24For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it werepossible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25Behold, I have told you before.

My main question is: If Jesus warned us about signs and wonders being performed by devils and demons why are we not listening to that? Instead the charasmatics are leading people into the signs and wonders as proof…

Pentecostalism's Formidable Opponent

Continue Well 2 John 9

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

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Continue Well 2 John 9

Continue Well 2 John 9

Continue Well 2 John 9

Great is thy faithfulness, O God my Father...

Well-Known Member

Continue Well 2 John 9

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