Dead to the Law

HIM said:

You are right about the death part. However, The Law of Sin is our slavery to Sin. That is what those who are in Christ Jesus have been set free from. Read the following with that in mind.

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Hmmm. Romans 8:2 says we have been set free from "the law of sin and death". The nexus between "sin" and "death" does not go away because of things said about "the law of sin" in chapter 7. On the contrary, the nexus between sin and death is there on purpose because it is one of the main themes of the entire book of Romans. And the main theme of Romans is that the nexus between sin and death is broken by God sending His Son to die on a cross for our sins so that we would not face His wrath if we placed our trust in Him. That is also the point of Romans 8:2.

HIM said:

If you still don't see, we will show you.

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Who is "we"? SDA? Your arguments sound like theirs.

HIM said:

Rom 7:17 Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.
Romans 7:19 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do.
Romans 7:20 Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.
Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.
Romans 7:22 For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:
Romans 7:23 But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.

Rom 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.
Rom 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:
Rom 8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

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NewLifeInChristJesus said:

What is an "entity class"?

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Jesus, on nearly every page of the Gospels, revealed Satan and devils within people. He engaged them within people. Revealed them in people. Castigated them in people. Cast them out of people. And commanded them in people.

I honestly don't know how anyone can read His Words and miss this critical point quite honestly.

But for years after I was saved, and probably read Mark 4:15 hundreds or more times, never once did it occur to me that Mark 4:15 happened to me as well as everyone else.

And we all, at least initially, fail to account for that "other entity class" in our theology positions.

Therefore, God in Christ loves all people, without exception.

and

God HATES the devil and his messengers, and WILL send them to eternal forever and ever HELLFIRE at the end of this wicked age.

All captives GO FREE by no merit of their own. This is the Gospel message. We proclaim it to reconcile people to the fact. But every last one of us is also carrying these vile things to their ultimate damnation final judgment and serve God in the process. Even though the majority are blind to it.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The evil within NO ONE can comply to the laws of God, any of them. Therefore everyone who claims to be legally obedient is blissfully unaware of their own internal deceit. Jer. 17:9 is REAL for everyone, believer and unbeliever.

BelieveItOarKnot said:

Jesus, on nearly every page of the Gospels, revealed Satan and devils within people. He engaged them within people. Revealed them in people. Castigated them in people. Cast them out of people. And commanded them in people.

I honestly don't know how anyone can read His Words and miss this critical point quite honestly.

But for years after I was saved, and probably read Mark 4:15 hundreds or more times, never once did it occur to me that Mark 4:15 happened to me as well as everyone else.

And we all, at least initially, fail to account for that "other entity class" in our theology positions.

Therefore, God in Christ loves all people, without exception.

and

God HATES the devil and his messengers, and WILL send them to eternal forever and ever HELLFIRE at the end of this wicked age.

All captives GO FREE by no merit of their own. This is the Gospel message. We proclaim it to reconcile people to the fact. But every last one of us is also carrying these vile things to their ultimate damnation final judgment and serve God in the process. Even though the majority are blind to it.

Romans 11:32
For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.

The evil within NO ONE can comply to the laws of God, any of them. Therefore everyone who claims to be legally obedient is blissfully unaware of their own internal deceit. Jer. 17:9 is REAL for everyone, believer and unbeliever.

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Thank you for your reply. This is my first interraction with a Universalist. It conjurs up a whole different set of Scriptures than my usual arguments on works, election, sinless perfection, etc. But honestly, I have no desire to engage on this topic. I wish you the best.

NewLifeInChristJesus said:

Thank you for your reply. This is my first interraction with a Universalist. It conjurs up a whole different set of Scriptures than my usual arguments on works, election, sinless perfection, etc. But honestly, I have no desire to engage on this topic. I wish you the best.

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If believers need to believe their unsaved neighbors are going to burn alive forever I consider it the darkest part of the heart being trotted out for view, Jer. 17:9. Doesn't change post salvation.

Good luck with that. Nothing personal. God will save you regardless

1 John 4:
7 Dear friends, let us love one another, for love comes from God. Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God.

HIM said:

No one said any different. We are set from our bondage to sin, which is the law of sin. And we are set free from the consequences of our sin, death. Your intial post to which instigated this conversation only spelled out being set free from the consequences.

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Yes, you are right. Both are true.

HIM said:

No it doesn't.

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I had second thoughts as soon as I sent it, but I was hoping you would give me the correct answer anyway.

HIM said:

Correct answer? The following verse contain the correct answer ideally. This applies to all.

John 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
John 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
John 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
Galatians 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Colossians 1:27 To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:
Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:
Colossians 1:29 Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

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Yeah, I was wondering who the "we" is when you said, "If you still don't see, we will show you." I was hoping you would clarify that part of the statement.

HIM said:

In respect to Christ now living vicariously through and with Paul, Paul continues to say if righteousness is of the Law and not of this faith, then Christ died for nothing.

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Yes, faith is what first bonds us to God, so, "not of faith" means not of God: it means I'm trying to obey the law on my own apart from Him-and that is impossible. But with Him all things asre possible, including becoming who we were created to be, not sinners. It's a process because becoming "perfected in love" is a process and love is what overcomes sin, thereby fulfilling the law. It's the righteousness that the law and the prophets testify to but could never accomplish. To know and love God-and neighbor-is man's very purpose.

HIM said:

And this non-sinning ability through Christ is key to understanding a lot of Paul’s writings to us. Galatians in particular.

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Yes, much of Romans as well.

HIM said:

Circumcision and All the holy days accept the Sabbath of Creation were instituted because of the fall in the Garden of Eden.

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This is an unsubstantiated claim and I would say flawed reasoning.

The creation account itself is a redemptive metaphor showing light being spoken into darkness that starts a process which ends in rest. We would be remiss not to mention that light being spoken into darkness is one of the strongest images used in the bible to convey redemption through Christ that is repeated throughout the bible, noteably John 1 showing that Word is the light and the light shines in the darkness and an intention allusion of the creation account, John 8 where Christ calls himself "the light of the world", 2 Cor 3:6 is more explict and it reaffirms this metaphor of Christ being the light of creation (to name a few off hand). This shows us that post-fall redemption is baked into the creation account by design, and this includes the 7th day as the goal of the redeption process.

the 4th commandment is given in the context to heads of households as the charge is not just ceasing work for yourself but your whole household including your servants/slaves and even animals. Anyone under authority can not do something unless they are permitted to do so by one with authority. the 4th commandment sees the heads of the household charged with ensuring rest is kept through a hierarchical structure, with those at the bottom having little to no authority at all (the animals). The thing with work animals is they cannot take rest themselves (otherwise they will be whipped into submission or sent to market) so they must be given rest by one with authority in order to have it. This is a powerful salvation metaphor showing the mechanism of salvation/rest through one with authority in a post-fall redeptive plan.

the 7th day itself ultimately points not to physical rest but to spiritual rest, and it points to the one who can give us this spiritual rest. But without the fall does this mean we don't need a saviour because we have no need for redemption? this is a flawed way of approaching redemption. It doesn't matter how you view the literalness of the account; abstractly, Adam needed Christ as much as he did before the fall as he did after the fall. light is spoken into darkness before man was ever created but it is designed for man not inspite of him, showing that this system was made as a redemptive plan for fallen man since the beginning. The account of the fall shows us an irreversible need for redemption, that "all have sinned" without argument; Moses to Adam is about 2500 years, this is an intentional large gap to show an ancient people group their need for redemption. it's not there to show that stuff post-fall are driven by our redeptive need and stuff pre-fall have different goals in mind. it all there as a part of a redemptive plan.

There happens to be no sabbath law pre-fall (or in the entire book of Genesis), and one could rebut the commandment itself is still a post-fall interpretation and would fall under your post-fall rule (which is still a flawed way to approach it). if we are to look at creation in a vacuum (which is never a good idea) the only commandment that stands is the commandment to multiply but there is no sabbath commandment. Multiplication is indeed an active part of the redemptive metaphor that still holds today, but I don't see you talking about the only commandment that is confirmed pre-fall which shows me you're less interested in you're own logic of this universal golden pre-fall rule and are more interested in finding a way to bolster the sabbath commandment.

here's a hint in terms of biblical exegesis, It's all part of the redemptive plan and nothing escapes this, including the creation account of Gen 1 which is a gospel account in it's own right and the sabbath absolutely is about a redemptive plan by design that would be foolish to protest. The biblical accounts all have a post-fall audience so are motivated by post-fall circumstances and about a redeptive plan for us in our post-fall state. Sabbath, and certainly sabbath law, was designed for this post-fall state.

HIM said:

To much “I” in your response. Not here to debate you about what you think.

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misdirection and avoidance. I've shown how scripture supports a post-fall redemptive plan of God baked into creation and by extension, the 7th day, you've chosen to ignore this and accuse me of being too opinion driven. Anyone can say that, I can just fire it right back you but it's the neglect of support that exposes baseless opinion, where I instead showed scriptural support not merely unsubstantiated claims.

Your claim is "Circumcision and All the holy days accept [sic] the Sabbath of Creation were instituted because of the fall in the Garden of Eden." Where is your support that shows the 7th day does not include a post-redeemptive plan so we know what we can judge as mere opinion or not?