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Should pulpits remain silent on politics?

Ignatius the Kiwi

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What values? where is the Father as supreme being over human government? Where is loving all as self in human government? Where is repentance of self-interest? As for Constantine declaring himself a god, look it up in non-partisan literature
Not doing your homework. Provide the source. Also as Rome became Christian, pagan worship was outlawed and the Emperor gave devotion to God. Do you disapprove of this?
 
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timothyu

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That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants." - Congress 1854
That is because for the most part they followed a religion rather than the will of God, just as the Jews once did and got chastised for.
 
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timothyu

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And it was bad that worship of the True God was promulgated amd false gods was stopped?
Told you.. God uses unrepentant man for his own will. The idea was not to worship but to do His will and repent, loving all as self. Didn't happen. Still hasn't.
 
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Tuur

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More. There are more pagans in the US today, for instance, than the entire population of the US 200 years ago.

And that's not even counting India and China.
As a percentage of the population though?

Here it gets murky. It's not unknown for church goers to maintain some pagan practices out of more than tradition. Consulting fortune tellers and such. To the best of my knowledge, Lincoln was a church goer, and held at least one séance at the White House. I know one person, who after she was saved, was tempted to follow a superstition to attempt to make screech owl stop calling, but didn't after she reflected that was dabbling in something a Christian shouldn't.

So, is a person who attends church and practices pagan rituals a Christian or a pagan who goes to church out of convention and doesn't necessarily believe. By his own words, Benjamin Franklin was a deist and not a Christian, yet he urged his daughter to attend church, so such wasn't unknown.
 
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Tuur

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And it was bad that worship of the True God was promulgated amd false gods was stopped?
Official worship might have stopped, but what about individual practice? You can mandate a person follow Christian practices, but not that they believe.
 
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XrxrX

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That is because for the most part they followed a religion rather than the will of God, just as the Jews once did and got chastised for.
It comes down to "dancing with the one that brung ya..". It's a story that has played out over and over, God raises you up, and in the pride of life one forgets how they got there. Over, and over.. and over.... It's a message in and of itself. Pre Flood, post Flood, pre Cross, post Cross.. and nation after nation, civilization after civilization.. but, "this time.... This time it'll be different". No. It won't and it never will or would be. God, man and angels... are all witness to this truth, through Millennia. And God, in His perfect Majesty.. did a thing. Made a New Creation.. man, His precious creation... One Spirit with Him. Something so unimaginable in creation, that even the angels have No Idea, what... this could possibly be. It's so beyond imagining...there are no words.
This idea of a "slow rehab"...
They have no idea what's coming.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Told you.. God uses unrepentant man for his own will. The idea was not to worship but to do His will and repent, loving all as self. Didn't happen. Still hasn't.
So God used Constantine to glorify himself? Why would God use an Empire you hate and consider the start of the great apostasy?
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Official worship might have stopped, but what about individual practice? You can mandate a person follow Christian practices, but not that they believe.
That's true. Yet public celebrations to the old gods and their sacrifices stopped. This to me is obviously a good thing.
 
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timothyu

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That's true. Yet public celebrations to the old gods and their sacrifices stopped. This to me is obviously a good thing.
Unfortunately it didn't go far enough and to this day man still worships man's ways and governments
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Unfortunately it didn't go far enough and to this day man still worships man's ways and governments
Can you answer whether or not it was a good thing to spread worship of the true God and forbid sacrifice to the false gods? You were the one who asked for this exact thing and where it was happening and when I point out that it did happen you find something else to be dissatisfied with.

Is your problem that the early Christians weren't as perfect as you?
 
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RDKirk

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As a percentage of the population though?
You think the Lord counts percentages or by individuals?
Here it gets murky. It's not unknown for church goers to maintain some pagan practices out of more than tradition. Consulting fortune tellers and such. To the best of my knowledge, Lincoln was a church goer, and held at least one séance at the White House. I know one person, who after she was saved, was tempted to follow a superstition to attempt to make screech owl stop calling, but didn't after she reflected that was dabbling in something a Christian shouldn't.

So, is a person who attends church and practices pagan rituals a Christian or a pagan who goes to church out of convention and doesn't necessarily believe. By his own words, Benjamin Franklin was a deist and not a Christian, yet he urged his daughter to attend church, so such wasn't unknown.
"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."
 
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RDKirk

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And you want there to be even more Pagans going forward?
Pagans will always greatly outnumber Christians.

"Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it."
 
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timothyu

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So the Church is irrelevant. Just the bible is what matters?
Jesus said the church would be built upon truth from the Father.. a truth that was set aside later in order to incorporate with the world of man. No different than what the Jews had done previously. You cannot change the world of man by acting in the ways of man, no matter what disguise you wear.
 
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RileyG

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Where did Constantine declare himself a god?

So your contention is that Christianity has never had any influence over society or government? Why is Christianity particularly weak regarding it's influence in your worldview? How do you explain the appearance of law that reflects Christian values instead of Pagan values in Christian dominated nations? All just pure coincidence?
Constantine never declared himself God. He was a devout Christian. All this hatred against Rome is nothing but anti-Catholic bigotry. Period!

People NEED to learn history, for goodness sake!
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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Jesus said the church would be built upon truth from the Father.. a truth that was set aside later in order to incorporate with the world of man. No different than what the Jews had done previously. You cannot change the world of man by acting in the ways of man, no matter what disguise you wear.
The ways of man being what exactly? We've had this discussion multiple times and you seem to think that organizing as a political unit, as a community with interests, is somehow inherently against the Gospel. If oppose the things of this world, do you oppose all collective organizations? Church units? Family units? Friendships? Marriages? There is a hideous logic beyond your reasoning that breaks down all bonds and justifies the destruction of all Christian communities and the normalizing of all non-Christian community and it's naive in the highest.

Idealists such as yourself can never deal with the facts on the ground, the historical reality the early Christians faced and so you judge them for it. You render the Gospel the property of only serfs, peasants and the powerless. Kings, Emperors, Rulers and those in power are not called to Christ and if they are called to Christ they are to abandon their responsibility to the nearest non-Christian instead of using the position they find themselves in for the good.

This is why you condemn the Christian Emperors of Rome because they didn't perfectly embody the Gospel and this is the great flaw of so many people's logic here. They think because Christians weren't perfect rulers they don't have a right to rule. They would have preferred the Muslims dominate Spain instead of the Christians resist Muslim domination of Spain and secure it for Christianity.

Unless you have abandoned all pleasures of the world and live a purely divine life, you're in no position to judge. Even the monastics understood themselves to be part of the communion with those in the secular world.
 
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