The Holy Peoples and the Treaty

Douggg · Monday at 1:47 AM

keras said:
Sorry for you, Douggg, but resurrection is never mentioned there, It is in 1 Thess 4:14, but we know from Revelation 20:4, that it will only be the martyrs who were killed during the reign of the 'beast'.

That the being 'caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus', is not a trip to heaven is proved by how they will be the Priests and co-rulers on earth with King Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10

keras, the dead in Christ are Christians who have died. For them to rise, they will have to be resurrected. It is talking about their bodies being resurrected.

"For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever."

1Thessalonians4:14 is that Jesus when he descends from heaven will bring the souls of Christians who have died
that are in heaven with him. To be reunited with their resurrected bodies in verse 16.

When a Christian dies, their soul goes to heaven.

keras · Monday at 2:10 AM

Douggg said:
keras, the dead in Christ are Christians who have died. For them to rise, they will have to be resurrected.

I have no argument with Pauls statement in 1 Thess 4:14.
I just point out that he does not say 'all' Christians will be resurrected then. And the proof they won't be is in Revelation 20:4-5

The GT martyrs are special; they defied the 'beast', didn't take his mark and refused to worship his image. Their Promise is to be brought back to life when Jesus Returns. But not yet to immortality, as they and everyone else must stand before God on the Great White Throne, after the Millennium.
The two Witnesses: Rev 11:3-12, are included with them.

Douggg · Monday at 2:25 AM

keras said:
I have no argument with Pauls statement in 1 Thess 4:14.
I just point out that he does not say 'all' Christians will be resurrected then. And the proof they won't be is in Revelation 20:4-5

The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 will be before the great tribulation begins. Thus, I agree that them resurrected in Revelation 20:4, the martyred great tribulation saints, will not be resurrected until after Jesus returns.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 12:30 PM

Douggg said:
The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 will be before the great tribulation begins. Thus, I agree that them resurrected in Revelation 20:4, the martyred great tribulation saints, will not be resurrected until after Jesus returns.

How does this line up with Paul teaching that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns, as he did here:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul taught here that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality was Christ's was first and then, next in order, are "they that are Christ's at his coming". That's it. He did not teach a separate bodily resurrection of "martyred great tribulation saints".

You contradict scripture by saying that the first resurrection is something other than what scripture itself says it is, which was Christ's resurrection itself, as can be seen in verses like 1 Corinthians 15:20 and this verse...

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Since scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, then having part in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6) must relate to having part in Christ's resurrection. The way in which someone has part in Christ's resurrection, the first resurrection, is this...

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

Douggg · Monday at 12:41 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
How does this line up with Paul teaching that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns, as he did here:

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Paul taught here that the order of resurrections unto bodily immortality was Christ's was first and then, next in order, are "they that are Christ's at his coming". That's it. He did not teach a separate bodily resurrection of "martyred great tribulation saints".

You contradict scripture by saying that the first resurrection is something other than what scripture itself says it is, which was Christ's resurrection itself, as can be seen in verses like 1 Corinthians 15:20 and this verse...

Acts 26:23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.

Since scripture teaches that Christ's resurrection was the first resurrection, then having part in the first resurrection (Rev 20:6) must relate to having part in Christ's resurrection. The way in which someone has part in Christ's resurrection, the first resurrection, is this...

Colossians 2:12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. 13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

In 1Thessalonians4:14-18, Paul reveals the resurrection/rapture that will take place. In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, Paul continues as to when - before God's wrath is poured out as the day of the Lord begins. The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation described in 2Thessalonians 2:4.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

Spiritual Jew · Monday at 1:28 PM

Douggg said:
In 1Thessalonians4:14-18, Paul reveals the resurrection/rapture that will take place. In 1Thessalonians5:9-11, Paul continues as to when - before God's wrath is poured out as the day of the Lord begins. The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation described in 2Thessalonians 2:4.

1Thessalonians5:
9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

As usual, you didn't specifically address what I said. Please address what I said in my post #104 specifically. Is 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 in your Bible?

keras · Monday at 3:51 PM

Douggg said:
The resurrection/rapture event of 1Thessalonians4:14-18 will be before the great tribulation begins.

Sheer unbiblical nonsense. - Your wishful thinking, never Prophesied to happen.

Spiritual Jew said:
How does this line up with Paul teaching that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus returns,

Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that Jesus will ONLY bring the souls of the GT martyrs at His Return. Why do you ignore these Bible verses?

Douggg said:
The day of the Lord begins when the Antichrist commits the transgression of desolation

Any excuse to annoy us with your error filled charts.
Revelation 6:12-17 clearly tells about the event called the Day of the Lord. A literal one day event.
The Great Tribulation against those who follow the 'beast', lasts for 3 1/2 years.

Your placement of the Sixth Seal at the glorious Return, constitutes a 'taking away from and adding to', the Book of Revelation.

keras · Monday at 4:03 PM

Isaiah 52:1-14 Awake; Awake, Zion, put on your strength! Jerusalem, holy city, put on your splendid garments, for the heathen and the ungodly will never again enter you. Arise, captive city – shake off the dust and undo your bonds, you captive daughter of Zion.

The Lord says: You were sold, but no price was paid and without payment you will be redeemed. My people were captives in Egypt, then in Assyria, but now what do I find? My people in exile and My Name reviled constantly. But on the Day that I save My people, they will know My Name and know that it is the Lord who speaks. Here I am!

Deliverance is announced, as the Lord bares His holy arm and makes His power seen by the whole world. [The Sixth Seal worldwide disaster]
The watchmen of Zion shout for joy amid the ruins of Jerusalem, for the Lord has comforted His people.

Go out, leave Babylon behind, keep pure, you that keep the sacraments of the Lord. But you will not flee in urgent haste or leave like fugitives, for the Lord will go before you and your rearguard will be Israel’s God. My servant will achieve success; He will be honoured and exalted. The time was when many despised My people, just as My servant is despised and rejected, but now they will see what they had never understood and their minds will be filled with things unheard of before. Ref: REB. Abridged.

‘My people – in Assyria’, This refers to the ten Northern tribes of Israel, now the Western, Christian Nations. But specifically: the Lord’s people are now every faithful Christian, from every race, nation and language. Revelation 5:9-10

‘The Lord bares His holy arm – His power seen by the whole world’, This will be the next action of the Lord on earth. It is the many prophesied Great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a terrible judgement/punishment of fire, earthquakes, storms and tsunamis that will devastate and depopulate the entire Middle East, Ezekiel 30:1-5, and will severely affect all the world.

‘My servant’, The Lord Jesus Christ. It is Jesus who instigates this disaster, as we are told in Luke 3:17. He will not be seen on that Day, Psalms 18:11, Habakkuk 3:3-6, and from the many graphic descriptions of this event, He will cause a Coronal Mass Ejection, an explosion of the suns surface of an unprecedented magnitude that will cause all the prophesied effects. Isaiah 30:25-30

‘The Lord saves His people’, Those faithful Christians, born again in Jesus, who keep His commandments, who trust in Him for their salvation and who heed the warnings to take shelter, will be protected on that Day. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

‘Go out of Babylon, but not as fugitives’, Babylon: a metaphor for the ungodly nations. The Lord’s people have wonderful promises of how they will be transported back into all of the holy Land, where they will live in peace and security. Psalms 107

‘What they never understood’, The Lord’s plans are impossible to know by any atheist or false religion follower, but also those who study God’s Word in the Bible, if they have failed to properly discern the prophetic scriptures and allowed themselves to be swayed by false doctrines and teachings.

Douggg · Monday at 6:01 PM

Spiritual Jew said:
As usual, you didn't specifically address what I said. Please address what I said in my post #104 specifically. Is 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 in your Bible?

1 Corinthians 15:20-23 is not a continuation of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 like 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 is.

Douggg · Monday at 6:11 PM

keras said:
Sheer unbiblical nonsense. - Your wishful thinking, never Prophesied to happen.

Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that Jesus will ONLY bring the souls of the GT martyrs at His Return. Why do you ignore these Bible verses?

Any excuse to annoy us with your error filled charts.
Revelation 6:12-17 clearly tells about the event called the Day of the Lord. A literal one day event.
The Great Tribulation against those who follow the 'beast', lasts for 3 1/2 years.

Your placement of the Sixth Seal at the glorious Return, constitutes a 'taking away from and adding to', the Book of Revelation.

keras, why are you being so scornful ? If you disagree, simply give your rationale.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 involves the resurrection of the bodies of Christians who have died, and the translation of the living Christians. As does 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 as Paul continues to talk about the resurrection/rapture that it will be before God's wrath begins.

keras · Monday at 8:13 PM

Douggg said:
keras, why are you being so scornful ? If you disagree, simply give your rationale.

I have given proofs of what the Lord plans to do. You seem incapable of understanding it, let alone believing the Prophesies.

Douggg said:
1 Thessalonians 4:14-18 involves the resurrection of the bodies of Christians who have died, and the translation of the living Christians. As does 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 as Paul continues to talk about the resurrection/rapture that it will be before God's wrath begins.

But those scriptures simply do not say that at all. You add to what is Written, in a blatant and reckless way.
1 Corinthians 15:50-56, tells us when the translation into immortality for anyone, will take place; AFTER the Millennium, when Death will be no more...... Revelation 21:4

My aim and object here and in all my writings, is to get people to see the Truth of what actually is going to happen in our future.
WE are the peoples who will see it all, we have seen the resurgence of Judah and their success in fending off their enemies*.
Now; as over 100 Prophesies tell us, the Lord is going to send a world changing disaster to destroy His enemies, who include the apostate and Jesus hating Jews. Only a Christian remnant will survive in the Holy Land and the world population will be drastically reduced. Isaiah 34:2-3, Isaiah 13:11-13, +

* My belief is that the Israeli's have been helped by Satanic spiritual forces. They are not Gods people.
Proved by Daniel 12:1, where the Archangel Michael, who guards the House of Judah, will arise and save the few true and faithful Jews., ONLY those whose names are in the Book of Life.

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-15T17:44:51-0500

keras said:
Revelation 20:4-5 plainly states that Jesus will ONLY bring the souls of the GT martyrs at His Return. Why do you ignore these Bible verses?

Why do you ignore that Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20)?

Why do you ignore that Jesus began to reign after His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6)?

Why do you ignore that Jesus made His people priests long ago (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6)?

Why do you ignore that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18)?

Why do you ignore that scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time/hour (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29)?

Why do you ignore that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46)?

Spiritual Jew · 2025-07-15T17:45:33-0500

Douggg said:
1 Corinthians 15:20-23 is not a continuation of 1Thessalonians 4:14-18 like 1Thessalonians 5:9-11 is.

This is an extremely lame response. Do you just ignore 1 Corinthians 15:20-23 then since it doesn't agree with your doctrine? Do you think Paul didn't know what he was talking about in that passage when he indicated that all of the dead in Christ will be resurrected at the same time when Jesus comes while saying nothing about any believers being resurrected at any other time?

keras · 2025-07-15T20:03:00-0500

Spiritual Jew said:
Why do you ignore that Jesus's resurrection was the first resurrection (Acts 26:23, 1 Cor 15:20)?

Why do you ignore that Jesus began to reign after His resurrection (Matt 28:18, Eph 1:19-23, Col 1:12-13, Rev 1:5-6)?

Why do you ignore that Jesus made His people priests long ago (1 Peter 2:9, Rev 1:5-6)?

Why do you ignore that all unbelievers will be killed when Jesus returns (Matt 24:35-39, 1 Thess 5:2-3, 2 Thess 1:7-10, 2 Peter 3:10-12, Rev 19:17-18)?

Why do you ignore that scripture teaches that all of the dead will be resurrected at the same time/hour (Daniel 12:2, John 5:28-29)?

Why do you ignore that all people will be judged at the same time (Matt 13:36-43, Matt 13:47-50, Matt 25:31-46)?

Your usual avoidance of Bible truths.
All the dead will be raised and judged at the same time. AFTER the Millennium - NOT when Jesus Returns, as Rev 20:4-6 says.

The Holy Peoples and the Treaty

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Amillennialist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

Amillennialist

Amillennialist

Writer of studies on Bible prophecy

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