What if Jefferson and Madison had AI?

The Barbarian · Sunday at 2:25 PM

Today, my wife, suspicious of AI, asked "what if the Founders had AI?" Which immediately intrigued me. So I asked Chatgpt to design a government/society reflecting the writings of the enlightenment philosophers. Here's what it said:

Declaration of Reason and the Rights of Man

Issued in the Age of Enlightenment, In the Name of Liberty, Virtue, and Reason

When, in the course of human development, it becomes necessary for a people to liberate themselves from ignorance, superstition, and tyranny, and to assume the station of free and equal beings—guided not by blind tradition but by reason and justice—it is proper and essential to declare the principles which give legitimacy to their society and government.

I. Of the Rights of Man and Citizen

We hold these truths to be not self-evident by tradition, but proven by reason:

That all men are born free and remain equal in rights.
That the natural rights of man are liberty, property, security, and resistance to oppression. (Locke, Rousseau)
That liberty consists in the power to do anything which does not harm another; hence the law may only prohibit that which injures society. (Voltaire, Rousseau)
That the free exercise of reason, in speech, in religion, in the press, and in public discourse, is sacred and inviolable. (Voltaire, Kant)
That no man shall be judged by his birth, class, or creed, but only by his conduct, his virtue, and his contribution to the common good. (Rousseau, Kant)

II. Of the Origin and Purpose of Government

Government is not ordained by providence or tradition, but by the consent of the governed, formed through a social contract among rational individuals. (Locke, Rousseau)
The sole purpose of government is to secure the rights of its citizens and to express the general will—the rational and moral interest of all. (Rousseau)
Any government that becomes the instrument of private interest or arbitrary power is illegitimate and may be reformed or abolished. (Locke)
Sovereignty resides in the people; no monarch, priest, or faction may claim power above them. (Rousseau, Voltaire)

III. Of Law and Justice

Laws must be just, public, and rational, framed by representatives of the people. (Montesquieu, Beccaria)
The law is an expression of the general will and must apply equally to all. No one is above the law. (Rousseau, Montesquieu)
Punishment shall be proportionate to the crime, intended not to avenge but to deter. Torture and cruelty offend both reason and humanity. (Beccaria)
Every accused shall be presumed innocent until proven guilty. Secret trials and arbitrary detentions are hereby condemned. (Beccaria, Montesquieu)

IV. Of Knowledge and Enlightenment

Man's dignity consists in his capacity for reason. Ignorance is the tool of tyranny. (Kant)
Education shall be universal, secular, and devoted to the cultivation of virtue, autonomy, and critical thinking. (Rousseau, Kant)
Let every citizen have the freedom to speak, write, teach, and publish their thoughts without fear, for the free use of reason in public is the engine of enlightenment. (Voltaire, Kant)
Dogma shall not rule where reason can inquire. Conscience shall not be coerced where truth can be persuaded.

V. Of Society and Economy

Commerce and labor, freely pursued, shall contribute to the common prosperity. (Adam Smith)
The state shall protect property, ensure fair competition, and provide for the needs of those unable to provide for themselves. (Smith, Rousseau)
Excessive inequality corrupts liberty and undermines fraternity; laws shall restrain monopolies and privilege. (Rousseau, Smith)

VI. Final Resolution

We, the representatives of a free and enlightened people, do proclaim this declaration as a beacon for all nations and future generations:

Let ignorance give way to knowledge,
Let superstition yield to inquiry,
Let despotism bow before liberty,
And let mankind walk upright, governed not by fear but by reason and conscience.

So shall we build a society worthy of man’s nature—free, rational, and just.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sunday at 2:31 PM

Christian morality > Enlightenment morality

The Barbarian · Sunday at 2:37 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Christian morality > Enlightenment morality

The irony is that any attempt to impose Christianity on government results in a government completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus had no interest in overthrowing the Romans. He wasn't joking when He told His people to let Caesar have what was his, and to give to God that which is His.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sunday at 4:18 PM

The Barbarian said:
The irony is that any attempt to impose Christianity on government results in a government completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus had no interest in overthrowing the Romans. He wasn't joking when He told His people to let Caesar have what was his, and to give to God that which is His.

Jesus was not an enlightenment scholar. We are not taught by Christ that our principles are inferior to secular enlightenment principles. As much as you might believe in the superiority of secular thought.

The Barbarian · Sunday at 5:43 PM

The irony is that any attempt to impose Christianity on government results in a government completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus had no interest in overthrowing the Romans. He wasn't joking when He told His people to let Caesar have what was his, and to give to God that which is His.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Jesus was not an enlightenment scholar.

He was first. They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
We are not taught by Christ that our principles are inferior to secular enlightenment principles.

He had nothing at all to say about political applications of His teachings. It doesn't mean we should ignore them, evem if we find them too woke.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
As much as you might believe in the superiority of secular thought.

If you think you must misrepresent what I said in order for you to make a point, isn't that an important clue for you?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sunday at 5:47 PM

The Barbarian said:
The irony is that any attempt to impose Christianity on government results in a government completely opposed to the teachings of Jesus.

Jesus had no interest in overthrowing the Romans. He wasn't joking when He told His people to let Caesar have what was his, and to give to God that which is His.

He was first. They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

He had nothing at all to say about political applications of His teachings. It doesn't mean we should ignore them, evem if we find them too woke.

If you think you must misrepresent what I said in order for you to make a point, isn't that an important clue for you?

Is it your contention Jesus was the first teacher of the enlightenment?

The Barbarian · Sunday at 9:22 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Is it your contention Jesus was the first teacher of the enlightenment?

They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Sunday at 10:10 PM

The Barbarian said:
They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

So Jesus's teachings are indistinguishable from liberalism and the enlightenment more broadly?

The Barbarian · Monday at 8:26 AM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So Jesus's teachings are indistinguishable from liberalism and the enlightenment more broadly?

Still making up ideas for me? Do you not realize how this reflects on you?
They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

Perhaps you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 12:19 PM

The Barbarian said:
Still making up ideas for me? Do you not realize how this reflects on you?
They merely copied some of His teachings and applied it to society.

Perhaps you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

Can you elaborate the differences between Enlightenment thought and Christianity? Also what the Enlightenment philosophers took from Jesus?

The Barbarian · Monday at 12:29 PM

Perhaps you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Can you elaborate the differences between Enlightenment thought and Christianity?

How about just answering my question and tell us what you think? You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 12:34 PM

The Barbarian said:
Perhaps you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

How about just answering my question and tell us what you think? You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

So you cannot explain the difference between Jesus's teachings and the enlightenment? I could think of one difference. Enlightenment and liberal secularism respects all religions as equal and prohibits violence or coercion against them. Our Lord used said force against those he thought were blaspheming in the temple. Jesus would be arrested under the American system if it were to happen in the USA. Yet we know our Lord was right to use such force against the money changers.

Would you consider this a misalignment between Christian values and enlightenment/liberal values?

The Barbarian · Monday at 1:17 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So you cannot explain the difference between Jesus's teachings and the enlightenment?

Sorry, no bunny trails today. Let's get back to the question at hand:

You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

I think we all know why you won't answer it. But if I'm wrong, show us. If, on the other hand, you'd like to let the thread back on track, just ignore the question.

If you truly don't know the difference between Jesus' teachings and Enlightenment political philosophy, I'll show you. But first you get a chance to answer the question. Or dodge it, and let us draw the obvious conclusion.

Your call.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 1:20 PM

The Barbarian said:
Sorry, no bunny trails today. Let's get back to the question at hand:

You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

I think we all know why you won't answer it. But if I'm wrong, show us. If, on the other hand, you'd like to let the thread back on track, just ignore the question.

If you truly don't know the difference between Jesus' teachings and Enlightenment political philosophy, I'll show you. But first you get a chance to answer the question. Or dodge it, and let us draw the obvious conclusion.

Your call.

I know the difference but I am concerned that you don't. You seem to view the constitution as some sort of divine revelation.

Was Jesus right to threaten and coerce the money changers with threats of violence because of his zeal for God? I can't imagine as a believer of the US constitution you approve.

The Barbarian · Monday at 2:51 PM

If you truly don't know the difference between Jesus' teachings and Enlightenment political philosophy, I'll show you. But first you get a chance to answer the question. Or dodge it, and let us draw the obvious conclusion.

Your call.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
I know the difference...

But you can't tell us what it is. And I get it. You don't know much about either, do you?

So here you go...

Jesus' message is divine revelation. Enlightenment philosophy is grounded in reason and observation.

Jesus preaches humans as in the image of God, but fallen. Enlightenment philosophy regards humans as rational independent agents.

Jesus preached morality based on love of God. Enlightenment philosophy bases morality on reason and natural law.

Jesus was indifferent to government, asserting that His kingdom was not of this world. Enlightenment philosophers called for liberty, political freedom, and a government that did not meddle in religion.

Notice that they conflict very little, if at all. There's a good reason for that. Now that I've shown you, tell us which of His teachings and which ideas of the Enlightenment philosophers do you reject?

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 3:17 PM

The Barbarian said:
If you truly don't know the difference between Jesus' teachings and Enlightenment political philosophy, I'll show you. But first you get a chance to answer the question. Or dodge it, and let us draw the obvious conclusion.

Your call.

But you can't tell us what it is. And I get it. You don't know much about either, do you?

So here you go...

Jesus' message is divine revelation. Enlightenment philosophy is grounded in reason and observation.

Jesus preaches humans as in the image of God, but fallen. Enlightenment philosophy regards humans as rational independent agents.

Jesus preached morality based on love of God. Enlightenment philosophy bases morality on reason and natural law.

Jesus was indifferent to government, asserting that His kingdom was not of this world. Enlightenment philosophers called for liberty, political freedom, and a government that did not meddle in religion.

Notice that they conflict very little, if at all. There's a good reason for that. Now that I've shown you, tell us which of His teachings and which ideas of the Enlightenment philosophers do you reject?

So your Jesus valued individual freedom above all other things? Why didn't Jesus value the freedom of the money changers then?

The Barbarian · Monday at 3:31 PM

You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
So your Jesus valued individual freedom above all other things?

If you want to dodge the question, just say so. You don't need to start inventing more things you want me to believe. If you aren't sure what Jesus valued, might be a good time to go check.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 3:34 PM

The Barbarian said:
You brought it up, and now you seem to be trying to distance yourself from it. It's your hijack; take responsibility for it. Why not just step up and answer? I think you'd be more effective if you told us which of His teachings or which of the points of the AI document do you find objectionable. Tell us about it.

If you want to dodge the question, just say so. You don't need to start inventing more things you want me to believe. If you aren't sure what Jesus valued, might be a good time to go check.

I am sure what Jesus believed and it wasnt secular enlightenment. You can't seem to distinguish Christ from that school of thought at all, going as far as to say he inspired the enlightenment. Then when I give an instance of Jesus going against your enlightenment values you deflect. Do you disagree with my initial assertion that Christian morality is greater than enlightenment Morality? Because the latter condemns Jesus for what he did in the Temple.

The Barbarian · Monday at 3:41 PM

Ignatius the Kiwi said:
Why didn't Jesus value the freedom of the money changers then?

Jesus didn't hate businessmen. He objected to them profaning the temple with commerce.
Matthew 21: 12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves: 13 And he saith to them: It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves. 14 And there came to him the blind and the lame in the temple; and he healed them.

The healing was, as always, a teaching moment, showing the sacred purpose of the temple.

Ignatius the Kiwi · Monday at 3:44 PM

The Barbarian said:
Jesus didn't hate businessmen. He objected to them profaning the temple with commerce.
Matthew 21: 12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the money changers, and the chairs of them that sold doves: 13 And he saith to them: It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but you have made it a den of thieves. 14 And there came to him the blind and the lame in the temple; and he healed them.

The healing was, as always, a teaching moment, showing the sacred purpose of the temple.

But he should have rightly been arrested for assaulting their liberty to be at the temple right? Jesus's zealousness at them profaning the temple is not as important as their individual liberty to be there selling their wares right? Our Lord was in the wrong to do what he did per your enlightenment values.

What if Jefferson and Madison had AI?

Crabby Old White Guy

Declaration of Reason and the Rights of Man​

Issued in the Age of Enlightenment, In the Name of Liberty, Virtue, and Reason​

I. Of the Rights of Man and Citizen​

II. Of the Origin and Purpose of Government​

III. Of Law and Justice​

IV. Of Knowledge and Enlightenment​

V. Of Society and Economy​

VI. Final Resolution​

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Crabby Old White Guy

Dissident

Similar threads

Declaration of Reason and the Rights of Man

Issued in the Age of Enlightenment, In the Name of Liberty, Virtue, and Reason

I. Of the Rights of Man and Citizen

II. Of the Origin and Purpose of Government

III. Of Law and Justice

IV. Of Knowledge and Enlightenment

V. Of Society and Economy

VI. Final Resolution