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The Holy Peoples and the Treaty

Jeffrey Bowden

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If a theory can only be proved by convoluted reasoning, as you do and there is no definitive scripture to support that theory, then it is just a theory and not something which will happen.
As well as all that, there is plenty of verses that tell us what really will happen with Gods people in the end times. Psalms 23, Psalms 91. +
What is theoretical about Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10 (ESV): 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” are we, the Church. We will be kept from the Trib. “Those” are who will dwell on the earth after the pre-Trib rapture.

I believe Jesus.
 
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keras

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What is theoretical about Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10 (ESV): 10 Because you have kept my word about patient endurance, I will keep you from the hour of trial that is coming on the whole world, to try those who dwell on the earth.

“You” are we, the Church. We will be kept from the Trib. “Those” are who will dwell on the earth after the pre-Trib rapture.

I believe Jesus.
This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17
You are again referring only to Jews in Rev 12.

You are also ignoring Jesus’ words in Rev 3:10. Jesus promised to keep the Chutch out of the Trib. He also made clear that the Trib is coming on the whole world. Therefore, to be kept out of the Trib means we are removed from Earth.

Rev 4:1 is the pre-Trib rapture of the Church. Apostle John was on Patmos (Rev 1:9) and he saw fine details of Heaven. He also saw Jesus, and he heard the trumpet voice of Jesus. That’s all in Rev 1:12-16.

It was therefore proven that John never needed to leave Patmos to see Heaven. Rev 4:1-2 further prove that John was seeing and hearing the details of Rev 4 through a supernatural scene shown to him by the one angel sent to him. That angel is mentioned in Rev 1:1 and Rev 22:8.

All your “trials” and “testing” verses are about the daily lives of disciples and whom they taught. The timeframes of those verses (as in 1 Peter 4) can’t possibly match the future timeframe of the 7-year Trib.
 
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keras

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Douggg

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Untrue.
Rev 12:17 ..... those who keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
keras, the woman throughout Revelation 12 is Israel.

There will be a mass conversion of the Jews to believe in Jesus after their forthcoming bad experience of thinking for a while that the Antichrist is the messiah.

When the abomination of desolation is placed on the temple mount, them in Judea will flee to the mountains in Revelation 12:14. The ones who don't flee immediately will have their routes cut-off and they will be the remnant of the woman in Revelation 12:17 that Satan will make war against.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Untrue.
Rev 12:17 ..... those who keep the Commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus.
Examine the context in Rev 12:13-17 (ESV): And when the dragon saw that he had been thrown down to the earth, he pursued the woman who had given birth to the male child. 14 But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time.15 The serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, to sweep her away with a flood. 16 But the earth came to the help of the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and swallowed the river that the dragon had poured from his mouth. 17 Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. And he stood on the sand of the sea.

“The woman” is Israel and “her offspring” are modern Jews.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17
Jesus says you’re wrong. He said in Rev 3:10 that the Church will be kept from the 7-year Trib and that only those left behind to dwell on the earth will be tried in the hour of trial that comes over the whole world.

To be kept from the 7-year Trib that comes over the whole world means we are removed from Earth. This is when Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 are all fulfilled.
 
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keras

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The rapture to heaven of the Church, is impossible:
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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The rapture to heaven of the Church, is impossible:
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.
You are combining a 2A verse (Luke 18:8) with the pre-Trib rapture that will occur seven years earlier. It is you who is attempting to make people believe an impossibility.

Rev 13:10 is about many of the new converts who later become martyrs and part of the GM. All of the GM will enter the Trib as unbelievers. This is because they will all be subjected to God’s wrath in the Trib, per Rev 7:16. That verse cites hunger (famine) and scorching heat. Those are part of God’s wrath in Rev 6:8 (famine) and Rev 16:8-9 (scorching heat).

Jesus makes you 100% wrong about the rapture. He said in Rev 3:10 that the Church will be kept from the 7-year Trib and that only those left behind to dwell on the earth will be tried in the hour of trial that comes over the whole world.

To be kept from the 7-year Trib that comes over the whole world means we are removed from Earth. This is when Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 are all fulfilled.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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You are combining a 2A verse (Luke 18:8) with the pre-Trib rapture that will occur seven years earlier. It is you who is attempting to make people believe an impossibility.

Rev 13:10 is about many of the new converts who later become martyrs and part of the GM. All of the GM will enter the Trib as unbelievers. This is because they will all be subjected to God’s wrath in the Trib, per Rev 7:16. That verse cites hunger (famine) and scorching heat. Those are part of God’s wrath in Rev 6:8 (famine) and Rev 16:8-9 (scorching heat).

Jesus makes you 100% wrong about the rapture. He said in Rev 3:10 that the Church will be kept from the 7-year Trib and that only those left behind to dwell on the earth will be tried in the hour of trial that comes over the whole world.

To be kept from the 7-year Trib that comes over the whole world means we are removed from Earth. This is when Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 are all fulfilled.
The rapture to heaven of the Church, is impossible:
Luke 18:8 When the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?

God wants you to rely on Him, to trust Him completely. In the near future , when others are gripped by fear, uncertainty and confusion and have no idea of where to turn to for answers, God does not want His people to agonise over what may happen next.

Luke 21:18-19 Not a hair of your head will be lost. By standing firm you will win yourselves life.

Revelation 13:10 ..... this calls for the endurance and faithfulness of Gods people.
Luke 21:18-19 are about the elect enduring the 7-year Trib. That aligns with Matt 24:12, 22. Those verses are exclusively about Jews.

Rev 13:10 (NIV) is also about “God’s people” (Jews). The Jews that survive the 7-year Trib are gathered in Matt 24:31. Their judgment occurs in Matt 25:31-40.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Keras, optimism is very appropriate. The events are unfolding before our eyes that could cause the pre-Trib rapture to occur within three years.

1 Th 5:2-3 (ESV): For you yourselves are fully aware that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3 While people are saying, “There is peace and security,” then sudden destruction will come upon them as labor pains come upon a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

It is my opinion that God is using President Trump to create peace in this world. Trump’s efforts could lead to worldwide “peace and security” within a year or two. However, the world won’t probably be fully convinced until about three years from now.

That’s what will set the stage for the fulfillment of 1 Th 5:2-3. Of course, immediately beforehand will be Rev 4:1.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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Jesus says you’re wrong. He said in Rev 3:10 that the Church will be kept from the 7-year Trib and that only those left behind to dwell on the earth will be tried in the hour of trial that comes over the whole world.

To be kept from the 7-year Trib that comes over the whole world means we are removed from Esrth. This is when Rev 4:1, 1 Th 4:16, 1 Cor 15:52, 1 Th 4:17, John 14:3 and 1 Th 1:10 are all fulfilled.
The pre-Trib rapture is prophesied in Acts 1:11 (ESV): and said, “Men of Galilee, why do you stand looking into heaven? This Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will come in the same way as you saw him go into heaven.”

Jesus ascended in view of believers, only.

Jesus will descend in view of believers only, in 1 Th 4:17.

Jesus descends from His throne in 1 Th 4:16. When 1 Th 4:17 occurs, He’ll descend in view of believers, only.

The proof of Jesus never descending beyond Heaven is Rev 4:1. We are commanded to “Come up here.” We are raptured straight to Heaven. Jesus descends from His throne, only, in 1 Th 4:16. He descends into our view after 1 Th 4:17.
 
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Jeffrey Bowden

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This is your problem; you say there will be a pre-trib rapture, when the scriptures never Prophecy such a thing.
Revelation 12:14 tells just who and how they will be kept from fiery trials to come. But the Christians who failed to trust in the Lords protection, will have to remain under the power of the 'beast'. Rev 12:17
Keras, Isaiah 2:19 refers to the 6th seal, specifically Rev 6:15. It also refers to the first trumpet, Rev 8:7 (ESV): The first angel blew his trumpet, and there followed hail and fire, mixed with blood, and these were thrown upon the earth. And a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.

Is there really a disaster in the 6th seal? If so, where is it in the Bible?
 
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keras

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Revelation 6:17 is clear: For the great Day of the wrath of God and the Lamb, has come and who can stand?

Isaiah 64:1-11 [Before the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath.] Why, Lord do You not tear asunder the heavens and cause the mountains to shake, fires to blaze and water to boil, then Your Name would be known and nations would tremble before You. Lord, look upon Your people, those who strive to do right, do not be angry beyond measure. Isaiah 34:2-4

After the Lord’s Day of vengeance and wrath.-
You surprised us with awesome things, when You acted the mountains shook.
Now, Your Holy city is ruined and burned by fire, all of Zion is a desolation, all that we treasured has been destroyed.
Jeremiah 9:9-11

Although Jerusalem has been destroyed before, there has never been a destruction as described, in fact as virtually all the buildings are built of stone, it will require an extreme event to fulfil these prophecies. Why would the Lord destroy the whole country, including the Third Temple at His Return?

1 Thess. 5:1-3...you know the Day of the Lord will come as a thief. While they are saying: All is peaceful, all secure, suddenly destruction is upon them and there will be no escape. Isaiah 47:8-11, Jeremiah 25:32-33

come as a thief’ - The unexpected Day of the Lord is not and cannot be the Return of Jesus in His glory. The date of the Return will not be unknown to anyone who knows Bible prophecy, as we are told in Daniel 12:7, Revelation 12:6 - from the day the Anti Christ desecrates the new Temple, till the Return will be 1260 days.

while they’ - The enemies of God.

all is peaceful’ - NOT how it will be just prior to Jesus Return.
Most of the world at present, is relatively peaceful, even the Middle East has only localized trouble spots. All the M.E. countries will support Iran and then.....
sudden destruction is upon them’- The terrible judgement by fire, prophesied over 100 times throughout the Bible. Deuteronomy 32:22

Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus. [At His Return, later.]

‘pass safely through’- Not ‘escape all these things’, as some translations have it and that leads to the false idea of the ‘rapture to heaven.’
 
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Douggg

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Luke 22:34-36 Be on your guard, do not let your minds be dulled by worldly cares, so that the great Day catches you by surprise, like a trap, for that Day will come upon everyone the whole world over. Be alert and pray for strength to pass safely through all that is coming and to be able to stand before Jesus. [At His Return, later.]

‘pass safely through’- Not ‘escape all these things’, as some translations have it and that leads to the false idea of the ‘rapture to heaven.’
keras, you are quoting from the 1989 REB bible....yes ? (I think you made a typo, chapter 21, not chapter 22)

The kjv says "escape" which is very different from "pass safely through".

Luke 21:
34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.
35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Also in the kjv, it is "Watch'" as watching for the rapture to to take place.
 
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keras

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keras, you are quoting from the 1989 REB bible....yes ? (I think you made a typo, chapter 21, not chapter 22)

The kjv says "escape" which is very different from "pass safely through".
Thanks, I have corrected Luke 21.

The KJV and many other translations of Luke 21:36, all give the wrong impression - as though people will be removed from the terrible Day of the Lords wrath. This is impossible and proved wrong by the preceding verse: It will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
Also in the kjv, it is "Watch'" as watching for the rapture to to take place.
Again, an unsuitable translation, - Be on your guard... Luke 21:34 REBible. Is a far better rendering and a 'rapture removal', there or anywhere else, is never even hinted. Just a pure figment of a fertile imagination.
 
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Douggg

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The KJV and many other translations of Luke 21:36, all give the wrong impression - as though people will be removed from the terrible Day of the Lords wrath. This is impossible and proved wrong by the preceding verse: It will come upon everyone, the whole world over.
I think it means that great tribulation will come upon all on the earth, and to avoid being involved is to escape - i.e taken out of the world to stand before Jesus in heaven.
 
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keras

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I think it means that great tribulation will come upon all on the earth, and to avoid being involved is to escape - i.e taken out of the world to stand before Jesus in heaven.
Only by a stretch of imagination, can that verse mean a rapture and there needs to be supporting scriptures as well. There isn't any.
The only time people will stand before Jesus and God in Judgment, is at the GWT Judgment of Rev 20:11-15

I know that the Lord will greatly reward those who overcome their false beliefs. But sadly, many will not change until it's too late. 2 Timothy 4:4
 
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Douggg

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Only by a stretch of imagination, can that verse mean a rapture and there needs to be supporting scriptures as well. There isn't any.
The 1989 REB bible for 1Thessalonians4:16-17....

"For the Lord himself, with a cry of command, with the archangel's call and with the sound of God's trumpet, will descend from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up in the clouds together with them to meet the Lord in the air; and so we will be with the Lord for ever.

Those two verses are the resurrection/rapture event.
 
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keras

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Those two verses are the resurrection/rapture event.
Sorry for you, Douggg, but resurrection is never mentioned there, It is in 1 Thess 4:14, but we know from Revelation 20:4, that it will only be the martyrs who were killed during the reign of the 'beast'.

That the being 'caught up to the clouds to meet Jesus', is not a trip to heaven is proved by how they will be the Priests and co-rulers on earth with King Jesus. Revelation 5:9-10
 
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