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Bobthebomb

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Hi. I have been directed here and it does seem to be an appropriate place.
My question is "What makes you certain that what you believe is true?

Now, I am not antagonistic, it's a genuine question from someone who has experienced something that has made him question his beliefs.
I am not at all into the "happy clappy" hero worship God thing, Almost everything about the church experience turns me off... BUT!
I experienced something in a church, on my own, while very drunk and in a dire state that I cannot either explain nor fully accept happened.

So, why are you certain? What, outside of growing up indoctrinated, made you say "Yes, I believe this is true?"
 

Freth

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I grew up going to church, so it was something was born and raised into. What made me believe it was true then? It was always a part of my life, and so it was all I knew—but there was more to it than that. Growing up going to church and being an active member was a positive experience, instilling values that have guided me my whole life (I am now 54). I made the decision at age thirteen to be baptized into the church. If I had any doubt (and I didn't), I would not have gone through with it. Simply put, I believed, because of the loving church family, because of my experiences, which I attribute to the Holy Spirit and the presence of God.

So why then did I leave the church a few years later at the age of sixteen? I still believed in God. The world was tugging at me. I was becoming an adult, and I wanted to experience life outside of my sheltered upbringing. In other words, it wasn't my disbelief in God, but my own selfish desire to break free from what was restraining me from living the life everyone else was living; life without restriction.

I left the church and lived a life of excess. It took thirty years, but I finally reached a point where I couldn't continue living the way I was living anymore. I had multiple addictions that were wrecking my health, to the point where I had to make a change or it would've been life-threatening. The worst part is the regret from the shameful things I've said and done, which still haunt me to this day as memories I can't forget.

I'm getting ahead of myself though, so let's rewind eight years, which would be twenty two years into my binge.

Of course, I believed in God, but my desire to live life on my own terms turned me into some sort of agnostic. (It was a convenient arrangement so I wouldn't have to take responsibility for my own actions.) I thought I was happy, but I wasn't. I was spiraling out of control. And then my father passed away.

This is the part where I answer your question. So, why are you certain? What, outside of growing up indoctrinated, made you say "Yes, I believe this is true?"

I had a life-changing experience in the emergency room while standing over my father's lifeless body. I should've been a sobbing mess. Yes, I was crying, but something else came over me. Love. Love like I've never felt before in my life. I can only describe it as supernatural. It sustained me through the viewing and the grieving process. So strong was this experience that it gave me an understanding of what true unconditional love is, something that had somehow escaped me up to that point. And then life continued as usual, and I didn't think anything more about the experience itself, but I started to think about life and God, and it got me looking.

I looked everywhere I could where I knew God wouldn't be, to find a truth to support my lifestyle, but everywhere I looked I came up empty, and it only pointed me forward toward God, not away from Him. For eight years after my father died I moved toward a final conclusion, that I didn't see until it was resolved and staring me in the face. That God is actively engaged in our lives.

I can tell you what exactly it was that made me wholeheartedly believe. It was looking at the world and the way Satan has perfected his craft in keeping man in sin. How his hand is in all aspects of our lives, to lead us astray.

I came to the conclusion that I need to start taking my salvation seriously, and that I need to surrender myself to Him. And that's exactly what I did. I got down on my knees and wholeheartedly gave myself to Him and repented of all of my sin, offloading thirty years of regret, and set about living a new life in Him.

Immediately after, things started opening up to me. Hindsight of my whole life and God's hand in it. Even while I was deep in sin He was there protecting me and guiding me. And then the moment in that emergency room, when overwhelming love filled me up completely and sustained me. If there is anything so powerful as what I felt, it is God's unconditional love.

Why believe? Well, there is the overwhelming evidence all around us, but we don't necessarily need that. Something as simple as seeing the other side (Satan's work) can do it. Or something as profound as the overwhelming feeling of unconditional love from God Himself.

There have been many more experiences since that I can only explain as God's work in my life. Too many actually.

God bless!
 
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Fervent

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So, why are you certain? What, outside of growing up indoctrinated, made you say "Yes, I believe this is true?"
I find your second sentences characterization highly objectionable and prejudicial.

The reality is, there will always be doubt because there is no faith without doubt. People tend to build their convictions on personal experience, through answered prayers and momentary sensations of God's presence. There's a saying in the church "God has no grand children." What this means is there's no substitute for personal relationship, especially not handed down religion. The Bible says "Taste, and see..." and that's the beginning of the story, tasting God. Once you've done that, He will begin to provide the reasons necessary.

I say this because at one point I abandoned everything about faith except for a desire for Jesus to be real. He used that desire to lead me to a point where now I believe that within the Bible God has provided His self-disclosure and everything we need to know about Him is written in those pages. So long as you do not frustrate the mustard seed that your experience has planted, it will grow into faith though how it will get there will be a journey. I encourage you not to resist, not to harden your heart against the drawing of God.
 
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timf

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The determination of truth is one that has occupied a number of philosophers for thousands of years. Today we have the advantage of advertising and politics to help us exercise discernment. In the movie "The Flim Flam Man" con men know the easiest man to deceive is the one whose own greed allows him to be deceived.

There is that within a person that makes him "of the truth" such that it can respond to truth like a Geiger counter.

Joh 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

Consider being faced with two propositions. The first the the assertion that in the beginning nothing existed and then it blew up and became everything. This then organized itself and became us.

The second assertion is that an all powerful person created the world and its inhabitants.

In considering these two propositions one examines the design of living organisms and their components like cells, the existence of light, gravity, and even tides. Einstein said that he believed in the God of Spinoza that made himself manifest in the harmony of nature. To be able to get this far requires one to "see" the hand of a creator. This is not the same as trusting in Jesus, but it is illustrative of the process of recognizing truth.

Most people who chose Christianity during its first 300 years (sometimes under very adverse circumstances) did so not because they considered history, doctrines, or theology. They did so because they observed very real changes in those they knew intimately. These were positive changes they wanted for themselves.

This aspect of Christianity is not often observed today because most who are Christian have become so as children and because few people know each other well enough to even know if there have been any changes. In addition Christianity is presented in so many strange and watered down ways that the core is hardly discernible today.

Here is a short (19 minute) video that sort of replaces the old paper tract that presents Christianity a little more clearly.


To discern truth, one has to value truth even over one's own comfort. In a way, truth can only bring humility as we see the truth about ourselves.
 
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BobRyan

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I experienced something in a church, on my own, while very drunk and in a dire state that I cannot either explain nor fully accept happened.

So, why are you certain? What, outside of growing up indoctrinated, made you say "Yes, I believe this is true?"
Miracles -
Experiencing the presence of God
Answered prayer - guidance from God
Power in the Word of God

Life and common sense makes it clear that there is a God. And of course the Holy Spirit interacts with all people to let them know there is a God.

But "which" God?

All things being equal - Christianity has by far the best picture of God -- hands down.

It has the best beginning and the best ending. And it has the most caring version of God.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Hi. I have been directed here and it does seem to be an appropriate place.
My question is "What makes you certain that what you believe is true?

Now, I am not antagonistic, it's a genuine question from someone who has experienced something that has made him question his beliefs.
I am not at all into the "happy clappy" hero worship God thing, Almost everything about the church experience turns me off... BUT!
I experienced something in a church, on my own, while very drunk and in a dire state that I cannot either explain nor fully accept happened.

So, why are you certain? What, outside of growing up indoctrinated, made you say "Yes, I believe this is true?"

I didn't grow up indoctrinated with Christianity, nor am I certain about it in my present outlook. But what with all of the crap that has gone down in history the way it has, bad news typically prompts me to consider the alternatives. This, and the fact that my education in philosophy compels me to question everyone and everything from as many angles as I can shake a stick at. So, I do.

There. That's the short version. I know it probably doesn't help.
 
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ldonjohn

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This is how I know.

I was raised attending a fundamental Baptist church in east Texas. Every Sunday our preacher's sermon was about accepting Jesus as savior or go to hell. I heard about sin, hell, Jesus dying on the cross, and “believing” in Jesus. At age 13 we had a week long revival and at the end of each of his sermons the visiting preacher would walk up and down the aisle begging people to go to the altar to accept Jesus as their savior. At the first service I remember thinking to myself “I hope he doesn't come over to me.” Well, he did, and when he put his hand on my shoulder, I found myself walking down the aisle to the altar. I was met by my SS teacher at the altar, and he asked me if I wanted to accept Jesus as my savior. Of course, I said “yes” so he had me repeat a prayer after him. I was told that I was now “saved,” and the next Sunday I was baptized in the regular church service.

By the time I was about 17-18 years old I wasn't sure if anything I had heard in church was true. I didn't care anything about going to church; I forgot about God and did things teenagers do. Later I finished high school, went to college & graduated not knowing what kind of job/career I should pursue, and finally settled into a teaching career as a math teacher, got married and started thinking about things young married couples think about.

By the time I was about 25-26 years old I stated to question myself about thinking that God was not real. I had serious doubts about all the stuff I had been taught in church as a kid being true. I wasn't convinced that the bible was true or that God existed. I did not understand how “believing in Jesus,” if he WAS real, would save anyone, and I did not understand how saying a prayer “in Jesus' name would save anyone. None of it made sense to me and I just did not get it. But, although I did not “get it,” and I wasn't convinced that any of it was true, for some reason I began to think a lot about what would happen to me if I was wrong, and the bible is true.

After several miserable years of doubting the truth of the bible, I started going to the church that I grew up in and pretend to be a Christian. Deep down inside I knew that I seriously doubted that I was a true “believer,” and many times I would try to work up a sense of “belief” then say a prayer asking God to save me. Afterwards I would have peace for maybe a day, but then the doubts would come back and again the fear & misery took hold of my life. The “believe in Jesus” part was the main thing that had me confused; I did not understand the meaning of “believe.” I began to ask people at church a lot of questions about the bible & about believing in Jesus. I still wasn't sure if any of it was true, but I wanted to know one way or the other. I talked to our SS teacher, the preacher, and other Christians. None of them could give me any answers that convinced me of the truth of the bible. No one could explain to me how saying a prayer in Jesus' name would save anyone. No one could convince me what was meant by “believing in Jesus.” I was still as confused as ever and did not know what to do about the matter. I found some books in the church library written by well known Christians authors, and I read those books over & over. Those books only repeated the stuff I had already heard in church. I still did not have any answers that convinced me that I would be “saved” if I “believed in Jesus,' and that I could know, without a doubt, that Jesus would hear me & save me. I thought that there was absolutely NO way I could ever know for sure that I believed in Jesus & was saved. By this time my life was consumed with fear; fear that I had missed something; fear that there was a missing link somewhere that I would never find. Fear that was I facing a tragic future.

I was miserable, hopeless, and helpless. I realized that all the things “I” was doing were not getting me any answers. I did not know what I should do. One night as I lay down to try and get some sleep, I looked up at the ceiling of the bedroom and said a prayer to a God who I wasn't sure existed. I said “God will you show me how to believe in Jesus?” Then I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time.

The next night I found the big family bible, dusted it off, and turned to the Book of John, the Gospel of John. That was the first time I had ever read in a bible outside of church. I did remember someone in church saying that if anyone wants to know about Jesus to read the Book of John.

As I began to read from the first verse of the Book of John I noticed that, for some reason, I was understanding the words I was reading in a way that I had not understood them in the past when reading the bible in Sunday school class as a kid. It was as though there was something inside of me that was enabling me to understand the words. At first it was kind of like a dim light that allowed me to grasp little bits of information that got my attention. When I read the first 14 verses, something inside of me said, “That is Jesus, and he is God who became a man; he created the world everything in it.”
As I continued to read, the light became brighter and I began to see the words I was reading in a different way. When I read John 3:16 it reminded me of all the things I had heard in church about Jesus dying on the cross.

Two verses that really got my attention were John 4:23-24 which said that we worship God in Spirit and in truth, and I saw that I had just found that missing link. That missing link was/is the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, and that light just became much brighter as I realized that I was reading my answer from God. Suddenly I knew that God is real and that He was showing me the truth that I had been searching for.

I continued to read, and found 2 other verses that got my attention, John 5:39-40, where Jesus told the Pharisees that they were searching scripture looking for eternal life and those very scripture told of him, Jesus, but they would not come to him so that he could give them eternal life. Then the light became even brighter as I saw that Jesus wanted me to come to Him so He could give me eternal life.

Next, I discovered even more convincing words in John chapter 6, verses 28- 44, where Jesus told those who were questioning him about the work God the Father required of them, and he told them that the work God required of them was to “believe in” the one whom he has sent. IOW, to believe in Jesus. WOW, that really got my attention, and I was still unsure about the word “believe," but I kept reading because, although I wasn't sure what I was going to find, I was willing to accept whatever it would be if it convinced me how to believe in Jesus. In the rest of verses 30-44 Jesus told those who were questioning him that they can't come to him unless God the Father teaches & draws them to him, Jesus, as they hear and learn from him, God the Father. But the verse that turned that light on to full beam for me was verse 37 where Jesus said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

At the moment that God's Spirit turned that light on for me, I “got it.” All the things that I had heard in church as a kid, but did not understand, suddenly made sense to me. I saw that it's all about him. God's Spirit had just convinced me that the finished work of Jesus on the cross paid the penalty for my sin, in full, and that there is nothing that I could do or had to do to make myself acceptable to God for him to save me. I knew that Jesus took care of my sin problem for me, and immediately an enormous sense of relief overwhelmed my troubled soul. The Holy Spirit had just showed me that “believe in” meant to “depend on,” like a child depends on their parents to take care of them. I was convinced that God is real, the the bible is the truth, and that Jesus was waiting for me to come to him so he could save me and change me. I didn't have to try to believe; I couldn't help myself but to do anything except to believe. I could not have stopped myself from believing if I had wanted to. It was as though Jesus was right there in the room with me; no, I did not see a vision of Jesus, but I knew he was alive and there with me. I found myself talking to him, thanking him for dying on the cross for me, and I asked him to forgive my sin and to change me. I asked him to change me “his way.” I didn't really know what that meant, but that's what I wanted. Actually I came to “believe in” or to “depend on” Jesus before I called on Him. Like Romans 10:13-14 says, “...how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?”

That night, over 50 years ago I found a peace that I still have today. It is a peace that is impossible to explain to anyone who has never found that peace for themselves.

Yes, sometimes the devil tries to discourage me by putting the doubts back in my mind. He will try to get me to question my faith by telling me “you didn't really have enough faith,” or “ you didn't really commit your life to Christ,” or you didn't really repent,” or you didn't confess all your sin.” I remind the devil that it is not about anything I did, but it is all about what Jesus did for me on the cross. I will quote verse 3 of my favorite hymn to him.

My sin oh the bliss of this glorious thought
My sin not in part, but the whole
Is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more
Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord Oh my soul

It Is Well with My Soul, Horatio G. Spafford


And then I quote my favorite scripture to him: John 14:6, “Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”(KJV)


John
 
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Veni

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it's a magnificent act of mercy when a man choose the path of celibacy to save his entire bloodline from sin, death & judgement.

this is certain. he who has ears, let him hear.

John 10:27
My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
 
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DragonFox91

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I grew up in a church that was a 'good church' when I was very young but about half-way thru elementary school, it really changed. It became a church that taught 'you can believe whatever you want about Jesus here. We're not like those religious churches. If you believe that, fine, but you're probably not right b/c Science.'

I would come home very sad from school & very sad about myself. It continued into middle school & I became depressed. But I would come home from school & close the door & read the Bible I had in a drawer. I saw the Truth in it. The church we were going to claimed to be a church, but when I read the Bible, I thought 'it's not teaching any of this!' God himself taught me thru his Word. I didn't have my parents teach me it. I didn't teach it on my own. The Sunday School teacher didn't teach me. He did it.

I could've been pushed in so many different directions. But he saved me & is saving me.

More tests & storms have come, & as I've gotten older, I've gotten help from other people God has introduced to me in life thru his will, but he is still my Great Teacher, & his Spirit testifies to me.

I really liked happy-clappy churches at first, but I've grown to dislike happy-clappy churches. What they're really doing is turning it into an emotional or entertainment experience. What happens if you are not feeling happy? Can God's Word be lost if it's all happy-clappy? If you are church hunting, don't give up, they are not all like that, even tho it seems almost all of them are today.
 
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DragonFox91

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This is how I know.

I was raised attending a fundamental Baptist church in east Texas. Every Sunday our preacher's sermon was about accepting Jesus as savior or go to hell. I heard about sin, hell, Jesus dying on the cross, and “believing” in Jesus. At age 13 we had a week long revival and at the end of each of his sermons the visiting preacher would walk up and down the aisle begging people to go to the altar to accept Jesus as their savior. At the first service I remember thinking to myself “I hope he doesn't come over to me.” Well, he did, and when he put his hand on my shoulder, I found myself walking down the aisle to the altar. I was met by my SS teacher at the altar, and he asked me if I wanted to accept Jesus as my savior. Of course, I said “yes” so he had me repeat a prayer after him. I was told that I was now “saved,” and the next Sunday I was baptized in the regular church service.

By the time I was about 17-18 years old I wasn't sure if anything I had heard in church was true. I didn't care anything about going to church; I forgot about God and did things teenagers do. Later I finished high school, went to college & graduated not knowing what kind of job/career I should pursue, and finally settled into a teaching career as a math teacher, got married and started thinking about things young married couples think about.

By the time I was about 25-26 years old I stated to question myself about thinking that God was not real. I had serious doubts about all the stuff I had been taught in church as a kid being true. I wasn't convinced that the bible was true or that God existed. I did not understand how “believing in Jesus,” if he WAS real, would save anyone, and I did not understand how saying a prayer “in Jesus' name would save anyone. None of it made sense to me and I just did not get it. But, although I did not “get it,” and I wasn't convinced that any of it was true, for some reason I began to think a lot about what would happen to me if I was wrong, and the bible is true.

After several miserable years of doubting the truth of the bible, I started going to the church that I grew up in and pretend to be a Christian. Deep down inside I knew that I seriously doubted that I was a true “believer,” and many times I would try to work up a sense of “belief” then say a prayer asking God to save me. Afterwards I would have peace for maybe a day, but then the doubts would come back and again the fear & misery took hold of my life. The “believe in Jesus” part was the main thing that had me confused; I did not understand the meaning of “believe.” I began to ask people at church a lot of questions about the bible & about believing in Jesus. I still wasn't sure if any of it was true, but I wanted to know one way or the other. I talked to our SS teacher, the preacher, and other Christians. None of them could give me any answers that convinced me of the truth of the bible. No one could explain to me how saying a prayer in Jesus' name would save anyone. No one could convince me what was meant by “believing in Jesus.” I was still as confused as ever and did not know what to do about the matter. I found some books in the church library written by well known Christians authors, and I read those books over & over. Those books only repeated the stuff I had already heard in church. I still did not have any answers that convinced me that I would be “saved” if I “believed in Jesus,' and that I could know, without a doubt, that Jesus would hear me & save me. I thought that there was absolutely NO way I could ever know for sure that I believed in Jesus & was saved. By this time my life was consumed with fear; fear that I had missed something; fear that there was a missing link somewhere that I would never find. Fear that was I facing a tragic future.

I was miserable, hopeless, and helpless. I realized that all the things “I” was doing were not getting me any answers. I did not know what I should do. One night as I lay down to try and get some sleep, I looked up at the ceiling of the bedroom and said a prayer to a God who I wasn't sure existed. I said “God will you show me how to believe in Jesus?” Then I went to sleep and slept better that night than I had slept in a long time.

The next night I found the big family bible, dusted it off, and turned to the Book of John, the Gospel of John. That was the first time I had ever read in a bible outside of church. I did remember someone in church saying that if anyone wants to know about Jesus to read the Book of John.

As I began to read from the first verse of the Book of John I noticed that, for some reason, I was understanding the words I was reading in a way that I had not understood them in the past when reading the bible in Sunday school class as a kid. It was as though there was something inside of me that was enabling me to understand the words. At first it was kind of like a dim light that allowed me to grasp little bits of information that got my attention. When I read the first 14 verses, something inside of me said, “That is Jesus, and he is God who became a man; he created the world everything in it.”
As I continued to read, the light became brighter and I began to see the words I was reading in a different way. When I read John 3:16 it reminded me of all the things I had heard in church about Jesus dying on the cross.

Two verses that really got my attention were John 4:23-24 which said that we worship God in Spirit and in truth, and I saw that I had just found that missing link. That missing link was/is the Spirit of God, the Holy Spirit, and that light just became much brighter as I realized that I was reading my answer from God. Suddenly I knew that God is real and that He was showing me the truth that I had been searching for.

I continued to read, and found 2 other verses that got my attention, John 5:39-40, where Jesus told the Pharisees that they were searching scripture looking for eternal life and those very scripture told of him, Jesus, but they would not come to him so that he could give them eternal life. Then the light became even brighter as I saw that Jesus wanted me to come to Him so He could give me eternal life.

Next, I discovered even more convincing words in John chapter 6, verses 28- 44, where Jesus told those who were questioning him about the work God the Father required of them, and he told them that the work God required of them was to “believe in” the one whom he has sent. IOW, to believe in Jesus. WOW, that really got my attention, and I was still unsure about the word “believe," but I kept reading because, although I wasn't sure what I was going to find, I was willing to accept whatever it would be if it convinced me how to believe in Jesus. In the rest of verses 30-44 Jesus told those who were questioning him that they can't come to him unless God the Father teaches & draws them to him, Jesus, as they hear and learn from him, God the Father. But the verse that turned that light on to full beam for me was verse 37 where Jesus said, “All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.”

At the moment that God's Spirit turned that light on for me, I “got it.” All the things that I had heard in church as a kid, but did not understand, suddenly made sense to me. I saw that it's all about him. God's Spirit had just convinced me that the finished work of Jesus on the cross paid the penalty for my sin, in full, and that there is nothing that I could do or had to do to make myself acceptable to God for him to save me. I knew that Jesus took care of my sin problem for me, and immediately an enormous sense of relief overwhelmed my troubled soul. The Holy Spirit had just showed me that “believe in” meant to “depend on,” like a child depends on their parents to take care of them. I was convinced that God is real, the the bible is the truth, and that Jesus was waiting for me to come to him so he could save me and change me. I didn't have to try to believe; I couldn't help myself but to do anything except to believe. I could not have stopped myself from believing if I had wanted to. It was as though Jesus was right there in the room with me; no, I did not see a vision of Jesus, but I knew he was alive and there with me. I found myself talking to him, thanking him for dying on the cross for me, and I asked him to forgive my sin and to change me. I asked him to change me “his way.” I didn't really know what that meant, but that's what I wanted. Actually I came to “believe in” or to “depend on” Jesus before I called on Him. Like Romans 10:13-14 says, “...how shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed?”

That night, over 50 years ago I found a peace that I still have today. It is a peace that is impossible to explain to anyone who has never found that peace for themselves.

Yes, sometimes the devil tries to discourage me by putting the doubts back in my mind. He will try to get me to question my faith by telling me “you didn't really have enough faith,” or “ you didn't really commit your life to Christ,” or you didn't really repent,” or you didn't confess all your sin.” I remind the devil that it is not about anything I did, but it is all about what Jesus did for me on the cross. I will quote verse 3 of my favorite hymn to him.

My sin oh the bliss of this glorious thought
My sin not in part, but the whole
Is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more
Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord Oh my soul

It Is Well with My Soul, Horatio G. Spafford


And then I quote my favorite scripture to him: John 14:6, “Jesus said I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.”(KJV)


John
Wow, John, it's great seeing how the Lord worked in your life! I read all your post. I like your story. It makes me wonder if there was error in what they were telling you? But as you saw too it truly is a work of God. You don't flip on a switch yourself, he does it.
 
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