• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

As Texas Flood Deaths Rise, Officials Blast Faulty Forecast by National Weather Service

SimplyMe

Senior Veteran
Jul 19, 2003
10,605
10,355
the Great Basin
✟399,346.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
As I mentioned earlier I worked at over a half dozen different YMCA camps. I also worked at one commercial camp.

Counselors or leaders were those who had direct contact with the campers. Sometimes that terminology applied to those in charge of an area like horseback riding, go karts or rifle range. Sometimes it was only used to refer to those directly overseeing the campers and almost by definition sleeping in the same cabin.

Those who would be monitoring phones i the manner you mention would be on the directing staff. Though in a situation where there has been any initial report that would indicate that close monitoring was called for I would hope they would be actually monitoring the super local conditions. Local is where one first knows water has overflowed or is about to overflow the banks.

I know that the better directors I worked with would have been closely following reports.

Not me. I had a reputation. I would have ended up checking and rechecking escape routes.

My bet is that some reporter heard a councilor complaining about the no phones policy and never even thought to ask if anyone had a phone. 90% chance doing so mainly because it meant they could not chat with their boy/girlfriend. And now it keeps getting hammered on. Though if the director was one of the poorer ones I worked with I can see the complaint being made for all the right reasons.

Forgive me, I'm not aware of people's titles in this kind of camp. So, yes, I was stating that one of the directors should have had a phone and been monitoring conditions -- particularly since a Flash Flood Watch had been issued that afternoon, that they believed would possibly occur overnight. I can't say for sure if anyone at the camp was trying to monitor conditions but it does appear, from what little I've found on the topic, that no one at the camp was aware of the Flash Flood Warning or had been checking weather conditions.
 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,273
13,758
Earth
✟238,206.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
Noem didn’t authorize FEMA’s deployment of Urban Search and Rescue teams until Monday, more than 72 hours after the flooding began, multiple sources told CNN.
But it was a holiday weekend!
We can’t expect that the Director of DHS be “on-call” 24/7.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
41,691
44,790
Los Angeles Area
✟997,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)

FEMA’s response to Texas flood slowed by Noem’s cost controls

Noem didn’t authorize FEMA’s deployment of Urban Search and Rescue teams until Monday, more than 72 hours after the flooding began, multiple sources told CNN.

Trump DHS Chief Noem Rages At CNN ‘Lies’ On Fox News Even As Her Agency Confirms FEMA Delay In Texas Flood Disaster

CNN dropped a bombshell report Wednesday, blaming Noem’s cost-cutting policies for delaying FEMA’s response until Monday — a timeline that DHS confirmed despite trashing CNN in a statement that was intended as a rebuttal.
 
Upvote 0

wing2000

E pluribus unum
Site Supporter
Aug 18, 2012
24,759
20,867
✟1,725,858.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married

Trump DHS Chief Noem Rages At CNN ‘Lies’ On Fox News Even As Her Agency Confirms FEMA Delay In Texas Flood Disaster

CNN dropped a bombshell report Wednesday, blaming Noem’s cost-cutting policies for delaying FEMA’s response until Monday — a timeline that DHS confirmed despite trashing CNN in a statement that was intended as a rebuttal.


"—every FEMA contract or grant exceeding $100,000 now requires her personal sign‑off. The threshold, internal sources say, is “pennies” in typical disaster relief. The result? FEMA couldn’t pre‑position Urban Search and Rescue crews until Noem gave the green light — 72 hours after the flooding began."

[I'm guessing the same policy does not apply to DHS/ICE spending.]
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,949
9,007
65
✟427,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
"Nothing wrong here, folks. Nothing to see. Just move along. Everything is under control."
Yes, so quit trying to make Trump responsible or partially responsible for anything involving this incident. Its disgusting.
 
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,476
10,842
New Jersey
✟1,307,449.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
Trump's people a month ago, were frantically trying to repair the damage by hiring people to fill critical positions in this agency left vacant by DOGE.

With a massive search effort underway, some have raised questions about whether cuts to the NWS played a role in the tragedy after it was reported that the two NWS offices mostly closely involved in forecasting and warning about the flooding along the Guadalupe River—Austin-San Antonio and San Angelo—are missing key staff.

The NWS said last month that it would be hiring new meteorologists and specialists to "stabilize" operations after the Trump administration's job cuts. NBC News reported in May that the NWS was scrambling to reassign staffers internally and fill more than 150 positions to cover critical roles. The Associated Press earlier reported that nearly half of NWS offices had vacancy rates of 20 percent or more, with some locations facing even more severe staffing shortages.

Are Donald Trump's NOAA cuts to blame for Texas flood tragedy? What to know

The question is not whether or not the agency was critically damaged by Trump's cuts. It is whether or not the damage was repaired in time to provide warning to the people who died in that flood. That's still being reviewed. Trump's attempt to blame Biden for the flood is a pretty good indicator that Trump knows he messed up. I suspect that the investigation report will have the same transparency that the Epstein papers have.

For the same reasons.

Based on NYTimes articles, it looks to me like the NWS did what they were supposed to. However the person who retired early had local contacts and thus might have done extra communications. But still, they issued a warning the prevous day. and alerts as the situation developed. Clearly Trump was not responsible. The acclerated retirement might have had an effect, but that seems conjectural, and they seem to have done their job anyway.

It's a difficult situation. My after the fact inclination is to say that given that the camp was in a place known to be prone to flooding, when the warning came out the previous day they should have made sure someone was in a position to get alerts. But warnings aren't very specific. It would be interesting how often warnings like this happened. Still, if I were running a kid's camp in a flood plain, I'd want to make sure I monitored the situation.

They were not alone. A nearby Presbyterian camp got all their kids out.

"It was about 1 a.m. on the Fourth of July when the facilities manager at a central Texas summer camp saw water from the Guadalupe River steadily rising amid a deluge of rain.

"Aroldo Barrera notified his boss, who had been monitoring reports of the storms approaching Presbyterian Mo-Ranch Assembly, a recreation destination where an intercultural youth conference had been called off early just hours earlier.

"Despite an absence of warning by local authorities, camp officials acted quickly on their own,..."

That's how I'd hope it would work. It's hard to know whether complaints about insufficien precautions are fair or just 20/20 hindsight. To me they sound at least partly fair.

--------

The NYTimes coverage also showed that much of the camp was in a flood plain. This is more than just an area at risk for flood. It's a high probability. There was a recent expansion, where local authorities allowed more buildings in that area. The camp assured them that they had an evacuation plan.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,999
12,950
78
✟430,840.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Yes, so quit trying to make Trump responsible or partially responsible for anything involving this incident.
One doesn't have to try hard to see the problems. The Trump administration, just before the disaster was frantically trying to replace fired personnel who were essential to the agency's work.

And most telling of all Trump actually tried to blame Biden.
Its disgusting.
It's how he works when he knows he messed up.
 
Upvote 0

rjs330

Well-Known Member
May 22, 2015
27,949
9,007
65
✟427,532.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
One doesn't have to try hard to see the problems. The Trump administration, just before the disaster was frantically trying to replace fired personnel who were essential to the agency's work.

And most telling of all Trump actually tried to blame Biden.

It's how he works when he knows he messed up.
Except he didnt.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,999
12,950
78
✟430,840.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
When a reporter demanded to know why the summer camps along the Guadalupe River weren’t evacuated before its waters reached their deadly peak on July 4, Rob Kelly, the highest-ranking local official, had a simple answer: “No one knew this kind of flood was coming.”

Why not? Kerr County, Texas, had lots of history to go on — as Kelly went on to explain: “We have floods all the time. This is the most dangerous river valley in the United States.” The National Weather Service had even brought in extra staff that night. Most important, the service had issued three increasingly dire warnings early that morning — at 1:14 a.m., 4:03 a.m. and 6:06 a.m.

What Kelly didn’t mention, but which has since become well known, is that the Weather Service employee whose job it was to make sure those warnings got traction — Paul Yura, the long-serving meteorologist in charge of “warning coordination” — had recently taken an unplanned early retirement amid cuts pushed by the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He was not replaced.

 
Upvote 0

Pommer

CoPacEtiC SkEpTic
Sep 13, 2008
22,273
13,758
Earth
✟238,206.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Democrat
When a reporter demanded to know why the summer camps along the Guadalupe River weren’t evacuated before its waters reached their deadly peak on July 4, Rob Kelly, the highest-ranking local official, had a simple answer: “No one knew this kind of flood was coming.”

Why not? Kerr County, Texas, had lots of history to go on — as Kelly went on to explain: “We have floods all the time. This is the most dangerous river valley in the United States.” The National Weather Service had even brought in extra staff that night. Most important, the service had issued three increasingly dire warnings early that morning — at 1:14 a.m., 4:03 a.m. and 6:06 a.m.

What Kelly didn’t mention, but which has since become well known, is that the Weather Service employee whose job it was to make sure those warnings got traction — Paul Yura, the long-serving meteorologist in charge of “warning coordination” — had recently taken an unplanned early retirement amid cuts pushed by the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He was not replaced.

Still, the NWS had issued alerts that were sufficient enough that people responsible were able to take the actions necessary that enabled them to save lives (notably the above Presbyterian Camp above). Had Mr Yura not retired, yes, that probably would have made a difference but we can’t know that as a certainty.
 
Upvote 0

Say it aint so

Well-Known Member
Jun 19, 2020
3,018
2,590
27
Seattle
✟160,040.00
Country
United States
Faith
Deist
Marital Status
Single
When a reporter demanded to know why the summer camps along the Guadalupe River weren’t evacuated before its waters reached their deadly peak on July 4, Rob Kelly, the highest-ranking local official, had a simple answer: “No one knew this kind of flood was coming.”

Why not? Kerr County, Texas, had lots of history to go on — as Kelly went on to explain: “We have floods all the time. This is the most dangerous river valley in the United States.” The National Weather Service had even brought in extra staff that night. Most important, the service had issued three increasingly dire warnings early that morning — at 1:14 a.m., 4:03 a.m. and 6:06 a.m.

What Kelly didn’t mention, but which has since become well known, is that the Weather Service employee whose job it was to make sure those warnings got traction — Paul Yura, the long-serving meteorologist in charge of “warning coordination” — had recently taken an unplanned early retirement amid cuts pushed by the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He was not replaced.

""Paul Yura, the long-serving meteorologist in charge of “warning coordination” — had recently taken an unplanned early retirement amid cuts pushed by the so-called Department of Government Efficiency. He was not replaced.""

Can't emphasis this enough.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
41,691
44,790
Los Angeles Area
✟997,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)

White Supremacist Group Patriot Front Claims It’s ‘Prioritizing’ ‘European Peoples’ After ‘Inserting Itself Into’ Texas Disaster Relief Efforts

“Patriot Front is on the ground in Central Texas after a flood killed over 100 Americans,” the group’s leader, Thomas Rousseau, a Texas native, posted in a video on the Telegram app.

Rousseau couldn’t help including his racist views in his post, adding that his group “is prioritizing their ‘people’ and ‘European peoples’ in those operations,” according to The Guardian.

That kind of hate speech doesn’t surprise Heidi Beirich. She’s the co-founder of the Global Project Against Hate and Extremism and has been researching rightwing extremism for decades. She told the news site it’s part of Patriot Front’s playbook to be “inserting itself into disaster relief in Texas.”

“The group was founded there, and like other extremist groups, they want to take advantage of relief efforts to mainstream their ideas, present themselves as non-threatening and helping the community, and ultimately use what they hope will be positive PR to recruit and grow,” Beirich said.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,999
12,950
78
✟430,840.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
It wasn't just the federal government that botched the situation. The State of Texas did their part to make things worse:


On the plus side, Gov Abbot has ordered the Ten Commandments to be posted in all school classrooms. Priorities, you know.
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,999
12,950
78
✟430,840.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Still, the NWS had issued alerts that were sufficient enough that people responsible were able to take the actions necessary that enabled them to save lives (notably the above Presbyterian Camp above). Had Mr Yura not retired, yes, that probably would have made a difference but we can’t know that as a certainty.
True. I suspect that the results of the investigations will not be forthcoming for us to know.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
41,691
44,790
Los Angeles Area
✟997,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)

Kerr County officials waited 90 minutes to send emergency alert after requested, dispatch audio shows

Records show that the topic of a flood warning system for Kerr County came up in at least 20 different county commissioners' meetings since it was first introduced in 2016 – months before Belew [a commissioner who voted against expanding CodeRED to add some additional FEMA-backed capabilities to hit all cell phones in the area, not just known residents -- however that expansion did occur] joined the Court.
More about that... That's IPAWS, which was implemented for free. From the above article.

In 2021, Kerr County incorporated FEMA's Integrated Public Alert & Warning System (IPAWS) into CodeRED, so that messages could reach tourists and others not in the local database. The IPAWS system allows local officials to broadcast emergency messages and send text blasts to all phones in the area.

And now...

FEMA records show Kerr County didn't alert all cellphones as flooding began

Some Kerr County residents said that hours after the flooding started, they did receive a county-issued CodeRed alert, a subscriber-only alert sent to phones via voice, SMS, or app.​

[So they only used the OG CodeRed for the first two days, not the more powerful system that #1 is not opt-in, and #2 hits all phones in the geographic area. Also, some of those messages weren't received until 10am.]

FEMA records obtained by NBC 5 Investigates show that Kerr County officials did not use the agency’s Integrated Public Alert & Warning System to send warnings with safety instructions to all mobile phones in the affected area during critical hours as the flooding began on July 4.

[The NWS alerts did use IPAWS, but ...] weather service forecasters cannot issue instructions on whether to evacuate or wait for rescue; those messages are up to county or city officials.

Kerr County has used the wider-reaching IPAWS system to warn of flooding in the past. Last year, on July 23, the archive showed the county sent an IPAWS alert saying the Guadalupe River was "expected to rise an additional 4 feet,” telling people to "avoid the river" and "move assets to higher ground immediately."
 
Upvote 0

The Barbarian

Crabby Old White Guy
Apr 3, 2003
28,999
12,950
78
✟430,840.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Libertarian
Plenty of blame to go around at all levels, except the camp administration itself. Those people seem to have acted courageously, risking their own lives to save the kids in their care. God bless them, especially the administrator who died saving others.
 
Upvote 0

essentialsaltes

Fact-Based Lifeform
Oct 17, 2011
41,691
44,790
Los Angeles Area
✟997,977.00
Country
United States
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Legal Union (Other)
1752338792516.png


Yes, but BIG SAVINGS!


US Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem told a Cabinet meeting Monday that the department would move to “eliminate” the government’s disaster relief agency, days after President Donald Trump signed an executive order directing state and local governments to “play a more active and significant role” in responding to such catastrophes.

The spokesperson said under Homeland Security Secretary Kristi Noem and Richardson "FEMA is shifting from bloated, DC-centric dead weight to a lean, deployable disaster force that empowers state actors to provide relief for their citizens."
 
  • Like
Reactions: iluvatar5150
Upvote 0