NT Wright refutes claim that early Christians expected immediate End Times

Interesting. I hadn't considered the destruction of Jerusalem as the reference of those expectations. It would be interesting to see a detailed analysis of the relevant texts (some PhD hopeful has a dissertation topic now).

public hermit said:

Interesting. I hadn't considered the destruction of Jerusalem as the reference of those expectations. It would be interesting to see a detailed analysis of the relevant texts (some PhD hopeful has a dissertation topic now).

Click to expand...

And here I thought you had already studied all of this sort of thing, PH.

Michie said:

New Testament scholar N.T. Wright recently pushed back on the assumption that Jesus and the apostle Paul expected the world to end within a generation, saying their primary focus was the coming destruction of Jerusalem, not the final return of Christ.

“I think that Paul was aware, like all early Christians, because Jesus had said so, that Jerusalem would be destroyed within a generation of Jesus’ own time,” Wright said during a recent episode of his “Ask N.T. Wright Anything” podcast.

“That’s a major theme in Matthew, Mark and Luke. It’s hinted at elsewhere. And I think it’s hinted at, for instance, in the Thessalonian correspondence in Paul and also in First Corinthians Seven, when he talks about the appointed time being constrained.”

Continued below.

NT Wright refutes claim that early Christians expected immediate End Times

New Testament scholar N T Wright recently pushed back on the assumption that Jesus and the apostle Paul expected the world to end within a generation, saying their primary focus was the coming

www.christianpost.com

Click to expand...

N. T. Wright is a partial Preterist so in his view a lot of Bible focus sort of stops at 70 AD - destruction of Jerusalem (I think some Preterists call that the second coming but Wright does not apparently).

I think that a straight forward reading of the Bible supports pre-millennial positions make more sense than the preterism.

Paul was an evangelist focused on outreach to gentiles - and there is no way that letters to gentiles were going to focus on non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem as the main point.

Phil 3 focus - is pretty obvious to a gentile believer -
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is the focus for every funeral according to Paul - and is not talking about non-Christian Jews dying in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.
13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

Looks like rapture/appearing-in-the-air future event rather than "destruction of non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem" -- focus in the NT

Paul warns the Christian church that certain things must happen BEFORE "our gathering together to HIM"

2 Thess 1:
Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Paul warns Christians not to be duped into thinking "The Day of the Lord has come" - and the focus is on "the Coming of our LORD and our GATHERING together to Him". IT is not on "non-Christian Jews will perish in the destruction of the Jerusalem"


3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he will be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

That focus was on a coming antichrist - not on the destruction of Jerusalem

8 Then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

11 For this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they will believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

BobRyan said:

N. T. Wright is a partial Preterist so in his view a lot of Bible focus sort of stops at 70 AD

Click to expand...

That makes sense. As a partial Preterist, couldn't some passages refer to both the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 AD and the "end of days," perhaps even different parts of the same passage referring to different events?

public hermit said:

That makes sense. As a partial Preterist, couldn't some passages refer to both the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 AD and the "end of days," perhaps even different parts of the same passage referring to different events?

Click to expand...

Rev 20

4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Here's why some find the Preterist use of anastasis in Revelation 20 inconsistent:

• Interpretation of the "First Resurrection": Preterists generally interpret the "first resurrection" in Revelation 20:5-6 as a spiritual resurrection, a new life in Christ that happens upon conversion, a spiritual regeneration, according to soh.church. They view this as fulfilled during the Christian era after the destruction of Jerusalem. It is the term "anastasis" -- "come to life"
• Contrasting with the "Rest of the Dead": The passage in Revelation 20:5 contrasts the "first resurrection" with "the rest of the dead [who] did not come to life until the thousand years were ended". (also the same word "anastasis")
  • Critics argue that if the "first resurrection" is spiritual, then to be consistent, the "rest of the dead" should also refer to a spiritual state, but the text describes their coming to life after the "thousand years".
  • Many, including Amillennialists, struggle with interpreting one "resurrection" as spiritual and another as physical within the same passage, finding it to be an inconsistent grammatical interpretation.
• Inconsistent use of anastasis with other New Testament passages: Critics of preterism, particularly Full Preterism, argue that their understanding of resurrection in Revelation 20 is inconsistent with how the New Testament uses the word anastasis more broadly, according to Biblical Science Institute. They highlight that the term often refers to a bodily resurrection, not solely a spiritual one, according to Biblical Blueprints.

In essence, the core of the perceived inconsistency lies in how preterists interpret the term "resurrection" in Revelation 20, potentially using a different meaning or applying it differently than in other instances where a bodily or future resurrection is seemingly referenced, or as contrasted with the description of "the rest of the dead" within the same Revelation 20 passage itself.

"Wright strongly emphasizes that the term "anastasis" consistently refers to bodily resurrection throughout the ancient world, both in pagan and Jewish literature, according to For His Renown. He argues that to interpret "resurrection" as solely spiritual or non-bodily in Revelation 20 would be to go against this consistent usage.

However, when faced with the implication of premillennialism (the idea of two bodily resurrections separated by a thousand years) which he finds problematic, Wright suggests that Revelation 20 might present a unique or "radical innovation" in its use of "resurrection". He proposes that the "first resurrection" in this context might refer to a "coming-to-life in a sense other than, and prior to, that of the final bodily raising"

==========================
In other words - for N.T. Write - "anastasis" is always real, physical bodily resurrection in the Bible except when such a view is not in harmony with Preterism in Rev 20.

Michie said:

New Testament scholar N.T. Wright recently pushed back on the assumption that Jesus and the apostle Paul expected the world to end within a generation, saying their primary focus was the coming destruction of Jerusalem, not the final return of Christ.

Click to expand...

I do not know about the end of the world. I would rather say the end of the age and the beginning of the kingdom of God.

However, the apostles expected the end and the coming of the Lord to be really near:

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come."
1 Cor. 4:5

"The time that remains is short."
1 Cor. 7:29

...the ends of the ages are arrived.
1Cor 10:11

"Behold, I shew you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed..."
1 Cor. 15:51

"Then we the living who remain shall be caught away together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord."
1 The 4:17

"...and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. "
1 The 5:23

Who was manifest in these last times for you
1 Pt 1:20

The end of all things is at hand.
1 Pt 4:7

It is the last hour
1 John 2:18

"Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.
The farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains.
You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is near.
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door."
Jm 5:7-9

Regarding the words of Jesus, for example:
"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

or:
"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

I am not sure how this can be just about the judgement over Jerusalem. It was supposed to be really wider - the kingdom of God coming on Earth.

public hermit said:

That makes sense. As a partial Preterist, couldn't some passages refer to both the destruction of Jerusalem at 70 AD and the "end of days," perhaps even different parts of the same passage referring to different events?

Click to expand...

There are a wide variety of views that fall under the "partial preterist" category, with the only common thread being the belief that some of the eschatological language was fulfilling in part within that first generation.

Questions about specific fulfillment, and issues of double fulfillment are second and there are a lot of splits. I personally believe that every prophetic utterance has multiple fulfillments, one local to confirm the prophet and one referring to the true realization of the eschaton. Some partial preterists hold that those fulfilled in the past were single fulfillments, and the rest will be fulfilled in the future. So it's not easy fo make a neat box of what partial Preterists believe.

trophy33 said:

Regarding the words of Jesus, for example:
"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

or:
"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

I am not sure how this can be just about the judgement over Jerusalem. It was supposed to be really wider - the kingdom of God coming on Earth.

Click to expand...

The kingdom of God seem to be a nebulous, flexible concept. It can be something that is close to a particular individual as in Mark 12:34 “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” as well as something that is like a new era. It is hard to imagine such a Kingdom in earthly political terms.

Akita Suggagaki said:

It is hard to imagine such a Kingdom in earthly political terms.

Click to expand...

I am not sure what you mean. The expectation of the first century was that in their lifetime will come a judgement and with it/after it the kingdom of God.

And I believe it happened as prophecised. There were some rather mysterious prophecies about being taken up to clouds to meet Jesus etc. I do not know how this happened, precisely.

trophy33 said:

I am not sure what you mean. The expectation of the first century was that in their lifetime will come a judgement and with it/after it the kingdom of God.

And I believe it happened as prophecised. There were some rather mysterious prophecies about being taken up to clouds to meet Jesus etc. I do not know how this happened, precisely.

Click to expand...

Do you think Constantine brought he Kingdom of God?

Akita Suggagaki said:

The kingdom of God seem to be a nebulous, flexible concept. It can be something that is close to a particular individual as in Mark 12:34 “You are not far from the kingdom of God.” as well as something that is like a new era. It is hard to imagine such a Kingdom in earthly political terms.

Click to expand...

I don't really find it nebulous, as it is present where Christ is present. Sometimes we can lose sight of it, but the kingdom of God broke into the world with the resurrection. It's been inaugurated, now we await the consummation. We live in the here-but-not-yet of the kingdom of God.

Working out what that means on a practicable level can be murky, but the kingdom itself is not.

Akita Suggagaki said:

Do you think Constantine brought he Kingdom of God?

Click to expand...

I do not understand the question. The prophecies (the verses you reacted to) are about the first century generation. Constantine lived in the 4th century.

trophy33 said:

I do not understand the question. The prophecies (the verses you reacted to) are about the first century generation. Constantine lived in the 4th century.

Click to expand...

So you think the Kingdom came when?

Akita Suggagaki said:

So you think the Kingdom came when?

Click to expand...

Around 70 AD. Some of the people Jesus was talking to had to be still alive:

"There are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the Son of man coming in his kingdom."
Mt 16:27

"there are some of those standing here, who in no wise shall taste of death, until they have seen the kingdom of God. "
Lk 9:26-27

"Even so, when you see these things happening, you know that the kingdom of God is near. This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled. "
Lk 21:31

"I Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
Mt 10:23

BobRyan said:

N. T. Wright is a partial Preterist so in his view a lot of Bible focus sort of stops at 70 AD - destruction of Jerusalem (I think some Preterists call that the second coming but Wright does not apparently).

Click to expand...

I considered myself a partial preterist and I never thought that. Rather it is John's baptists preaching of the wrath that was coming to those under the law, which began in 70 ad. Faith in Christ was the a way of escape...

BobRyan said:

I think that a straight forward reading of the Bible supports pre-millennial positions make more sense than the preterism.

Click to expand...

Paul speaks here of Gentiles vs Jew's. Jew's are judged by the law, And thee wrath and curse they were under was coming...
Ro 2:12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

BobRyan said:

Paul was an evangelist focused on outreach to gentiles - and there is no way that letters to gentiles were going to focus on non-Christian Jews in Jerusalem as the main point.

Click to expand...

Gentiles were being persuaded to become Jew's for a reason? Paul was addressing this....

BobRyan said:

Phil 3 focus - is pretty obvious to a gentile believer -
18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.

1 Thess 4:13-18 is the focus for every funeral according to Paul - and is not talking about non-Christian Jews dying in Jerusalem in 70 A.D.

Click to expand...

Wrath and cursing are prophesied in the law to Jew's under the law. It was coming.


The whole law

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.


Ga 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law.

Ga 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

This generation here.........

Mt 3:7 But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees come to his baptism, he said unto them, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Lu 3:7 Then said he to the multitude that came forth to be baptized of him, O generation of vipers, who hath warned you to flee from the wrath to come?

Lu 21:23 But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And here : The apostles to the Jew's

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
39 For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.
40 And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.


Have you read the law????

God punishing Israel with the curse and his wrath (of long continuance)


De 28:59 Then the LORD will make thy plagues wonderful, and the plagues of thy seed, even great plagues, and of long continuance, and sore sicknesses, and of long continuance.

Deut 25:26 For they went and served other gods, and worshipped them, gods whom they knew not, and whom he had not given unto them: {whom he … : or, who had not given to them any portion } {given: Heb. divided }
27 And the anger of the LORD was kindled against this land, to bring upon it all the curses that are written in this book:
28 And the LORD rooted them out of their land in anger, and in wrath, and in great indignation, and cast them into another land, as it is this day.

The Gospel to the Gentiles is an escape from Gods wrath as well......
De 30:1 And it shall come to pass, when all these things are come upon thee, the blessing and the curse, which I have set before thee, and thou shalt call them to mind among all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath driven thee,
Deut 30:5 And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.
7 And the LORD thy God will put all these curses upon thine enemies, and on them that hate thee, which persecuted thee.

Partial Preterism?
I don't know what you would call this. I call it fulfillment of the prophetic utterances of the law being fulfilled.

Ro 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

Michie said:

New Testament scholar N.T. Wright recently pushed back on the assumption that Jesus and the apostle Paul expected the world to end within a generation, saying their primary focus was the coming destruction of Jerusalem, not the final return of Christ.
“I think that Paul was aware, like all early Christians, because Jesus had said so, that Jerusalem would be destroyed within a generation of Jesus’ own time,” Wright said during a recent episode of his “Ask N.T. Wright Anything” podcast.
“That’s a major theme in Matthew, Mark and Luke. It’s hinted at elsewhere. And I think it’s hinted at, for instance, in the Thessalonian correspondence in Paul and also in First Corinthians Seven, when he talks about the appointed time being constrained.”

Click to expand...

Jesus said the kingdom
has come (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20), and
is invisible, within (Lk 17:20-21) the hearts where he rules and reigns.

The Messianic kingdom of time is now (Dan 2:44,* Eph 2:6, 1 Pe 2:5, 9)
we are seated with Christ in the heavenly realms now (Eph 2:6).
The parables of Jesus consistently portray his kingdom as spiritual (of heaven) and
as here and now (Mt 13:24, 31, 33, 44, 45, 47, 18:23, 20:1, Mk 4:26).
The future kingdom is the eternal kingdom, in the new heavens and new earth, the home of righteosness (2 Pe 3:13, Mt 5:5, 22:2, 25:1, Ro 4:13, Isa 66:17ff, 66:22, Rev 21:1-4, no death).

But the kingdom of time is now, for we are now reigning with Christ (Eph 2:6) in his kingdom (Lk 22:69, Eph 1:19-22, Mk 14:62, 16:19, Ro 8:34, 1 Co 15:25, Col 3:1, Heb 1:3, 8:1, 10:12-13, 12:2, 1 Pe 3:22, Rev 1:6, Ps 2:6 w/Heb 12:22).
___________________

*"in the time of those kings;" i.e., the Roman empire (Da 2:40-43), which conquered the Geek empire (Da 2:39, 8:21) -- the Messianic kingdom was set up during the past Roman empire, at the first coming of Christ (Mt 12:28, Lk 11:20).