Shoe bombs are back in fashion!

durangodawood · Tuesday at 7:06 PM

"Effective immediately" you can leave your shoes on at airport security.

Oh happy day!

https://www.cnn.com/2025/07/08/travel/tsa-shoes-security-checkpoints

ThatRobGuy · Tuesday at 7:46 PM

They should just "DOGE" TSA altogether, and go back to standard metal detector.

Some stats to chew on.

There are no known cases where TSA screeners or their SPOT/BDA behavior detection program directly stopped a terrorist attack or arrested terrorists

In internal testing, screening failures occurred in 95% of tests, and none resulted in terrorist-related arrests

Juxtaposed against:

From FY 2010–2012, ~9,600 misconduct cases were recorded (2,700 in 2010 rising to 3,400 in 2012)

By 2016, around 27,000 of TSA’s ~55,000 employees had been accused of misconduct

What exactly are they accomplishing? -- apart from helping themselves to two bottles of high-end cologne that had to be "surrendered for disposal" (IE: put up for auctions where TSA members get to place first bids on things that are seized but later found to not be contraband - or later end up on government auction sites that are open to the wider public - yes, that's a real thing)

There's someone in Atlanta right now smelling all sexy because they have a bottle of the $300 Louis Vuitton Imagination cologne I bought there on a work trip that was confiscated due to it "looking like it was more than 3.4oz" despite it clearly saying 3.4 on the bottle. (same thing happened to me prior to that incident too, at the very same airport -- but you can't argue with them, because the government gives them the power to decide your entire future ability to engage in air travel, so you just have to take it)

<end of rant>

durangodawood · Tuesday at 10:39 PM

ThatRobGuy said:
They should just "DOGE" TSA altogether, and go back to standard metal detector.

Whats that consist of? You and your carry on just doing a metal detector walk thru and thats it?

ThatRobGuy said:
Some stats to chew on.

There are no known cases where TSA screeners or their SPOT/BDA behavior detection program directly stopped a terrorist attack or arrested terrorists

In internal testing, screening failures occurred in 95% of tests, and none resulted in terrorist-related arrests

Juxtaposed against:

From FY 2010–2012, ~9,600 misconduct cases were recorded (2,700 in 2010 rising to 3,400 in 2012)

By 2016, around 27,000 of TSA’s ~55,000 employees had been accused of misconduct

What exactly are they accomplishing? -- apart from helping themselves to two bottles of high-end cologne that had to be "surrendered for disposal" (IE: put up for auctions where TSA members get to place first bids on things that are seized but later found to not be contraband - or later end up on government auction sites that are open to the wider public - yes, that's a real thing)

There's someone in Atlanta right now smelling all sexy because they have a bottle of the $300 Louis Vuitton Imagination cologne I bought there on a work trip that was confiscated due to it "looking like it was more than 3.4oz" despite it clearly saying 3.4 on the bottle. (same thing happened to me prior to that incident too, at the very same airport -- but you can't argue with them, because the government gives them the power to decide your entire future ability to engage in air travel, so you just have to take it)

<end of rant>

One time in this new era I got to San Fran and realized Id flown with a box cutter! in my "personal item". You may recall the implement gained some fame when they were employed by a group of mostly Saudis to commandeer a few aircraft, leading through an unfortunate chain of events to various wars and other problems. I had it in there from when I was cutting into drywall to inspect some things on one of my projects.

But another time in San Fran I got pulled aside for special inspection and Im thinking ok it must be the bike parts. But nooo its the Clif Bars.... which actually makes sense in that they have the consistency (and taste) that I'd expect from a plastic explosive.

I look at this sort of like speed limits. Recall that discussion? They are a regime that doesnt fully work, but would I want to use the streets (as a motorist, cyclist, or pedestrian) with all laws signs and any enforcement gone? Probably a lot less than I do now.

Im very skeptical that just a metal detector walk thru would be sufficient to deter the sort of chaos someone will want to cause sooner or later. And then we'd be right back with TSA 2.0

ozso · Wednesday at 1:54 AM

Thank goodness. I'm down to only one pair of socks that don't have holes.

ThatRobGuy · Wednesday at 7:48 AM

durangodawood said:
Whats that consist of? You and your carry on just doing a metal detector walk thru and thats it?

Metal detector, perhaps a few real cops in the airport...maybe some privately contracted security.

That's what they use for sporting events and high profile public appearances at major venues.

Pretty much go back to the way things were before TSA.

Or they need to reign in the power of the TSA by a LOT. The notion that everyone at the airport (known for poor customer experience all around) now has to walk on eggshells, out of fear that a person who's stopped no terrorists (and with less rigorous credentials than the postal exam) can put them on a no-fly list, has done little more than make flying even more of a hassle, and emboldened rude airline employees to treat customers even worse because if you say anything back to them, they can call one of the "blue shirts" over to ruin your life.

Granted, some airports may be better than others, but the Cleveland airport has gotten abysmal. I literally saw a guy in line the one time who was getting understandably upset because the 3 employees working behind the Frontier counter were talking to each other and shooting the breeze instead of processing customers. The dude made a comment to the effect of "can you maybe save the chit chat for your break, we've got a line around the corner and it's barely moving", their response: "Sir, if we're going to need you to calm down otherwise we'll have to get security over here"

durangodawood · Wednesday at 8:56 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
Metal detector, perhaps a few real cops in the airport...maybe some privately contracted security.

That's what they use for sporting events and high profile public appearances at major venues.

Pretty much go back to the way things were before TSA.

Genuinely insufficient. It was insufficient before, obviously. I havent observed major advances in human behavior since then.

ThatRobGuy said:
Or they need to reign in the power of the TSA by a LOT. The notion that everyone at the airport (known for poor customer experience all around) now has to walk on eggshells, out of fear that a person who's stopped no terrorists (and with less rigorous credentials than the postal exam) can put them on a no-fly list, has done little more than make flying even more of a hassle, and emboldened rude airline employees to treat customers even worse because if you say anything back to them, they can call one of the "blue shirts" over to ruin your life.

I can see that. I can also see how those working need something to deter the nonstop harassment they would get if there were no consequences. Not sure how we get accountability from both passengers as well as agents.

ThatRobGuy said:
Granted, some airports may be better than others, but the Cleveland airport has gotten abysmal. I literally saw a guy in line the one time who was getting understandably upset because the 3 employees working behind the Frontier counter were talking to each other and shooting the breeze instead of processing customers. The dude made a comment to the effect of "can you maybe save the chit chat for your break, we've got a line around the corner and it's barely moving", their response: "Sir, if we're going to need you to calm down otherwise we'll have to get security over here"

So airline employees, not TSA. For me, Ive never had a single negative personnel experience with TSA. Granted Im just 30 data points maybe. Back when an agent would open every carry on by hand at our local small market airport, the guy saw my kick drum pedal (I was flying to play a gig - Im not a rock star, it was the only and only time I did that because the money was really good for a change) and he's like hey my brother is the drummer for Jethro Tull.

But one time at SFO the security line took like 90 min to get through. Thats unacceptable. They did fix it tho.

ThatRobGuy · Wednesday at 9:32 AM

durangodawood said:
Genuinely insufficient. It was insufficient before, obviously. I havent observed major advances in human behavior since then.

Prior to 9/11, there hadn't been any major incidents involving security inadequacy since the Pan Am flight incident that was in the 1980's.

Prior to that there was the wave of hijacking incidents that occurred in the 60's, but that was largely rectified via the security measures that were in place prior to 9/11 (metal detectors, baggage scanners, and modifications to the aircraft themselves so that certain things were inaccessible from the passenger cabin)

durangodawood said:
I can see that. I can also see how those working need something to deter the nonstop harassment they would get if there were no consequences. Not sure how we get both accountability from both passenger as well as agents.

I'm not necessarily sympathetic to that argument.

Is it actual non-stop harassment, or is it justifiable venting given the consequences when they do their jobs poorly?

While I'm sure there are people who would start giving staff an earful if a flight is a few minutes late, it's some of the big ones that frustrate people.

I can give an example of what happened to my co-worker.

Typically, the easiest thing to do is use the QR code boarding pass and bypass the counters altogether. The issue with that, is certain airports (like the Cleveland airport) are cellular dead zones once you get 20 feet in the building, and their wi-fi rarely works, so she had to go to the ticketing counter. Somewhere in the whole process, they overwrote her last name with a misspelled version, so after waiting in the TSA line for 45 minutes, the TSA agent stopped her from getting through because the name associated on the boarding pass didn't match the one on her ID.

So she had to go back to the ticketing counter again to have them correct it, and then wait in that long line again for a second time because they refused to give her one of those one-time "quick pass" sort of things where you can bypass the line and get right to the checkpoint.

durangodawood said:
So airline employees, not TSA. For me, Ive never had a single negative personnel experience with TSA.

In the case of the Cleveland airport, the TSA are just as rude as the Airline employees... admittedly, there have been ones in other airports like Denver where the experience was better.

My only guess as to why that may be is because at the major hubs (like Denver), there's a little more "supervisor presence" and the higher-ups are keeping a closer eye on things.

ThatRobGuy · Wednesday at 9:40 AM

durangodawood said:
But one time at SFO the security line took like 90 min to get through. Thats unacceptable. They did fix it tho.

One thing the need to do, is designate one special TSA checkpoint specifically for people claiming they need "wheelchair assistance" to disincentivize people using it for TSA line-cutting.

I see that happen a lot...

You'll see entire travelling parties (some no older than 30's and 40's) all claiming they "need assistance" so that some staff member pushes them right up to the front of the TSA line...and then through some glorious miracle, all of their ailments fade and "hallelujah they can walk just fine again" once they're on the other side of security. Amazing how that works.

If the TSA wait time was the same regardless of "needing wheelchair assistance" status, I'd suspect we'd see fewer people abusing that.

durangodawood · Wednesday at 9:50 AM

ThatRobGuy said:
Prior to 9/11, there hadn't been any major incidents involving security inadequacy since the Pan Am flight incident that was in the 1980's.

Since 9/11 its indelibly clear the kind of chaos one or two people can engineer by leveraging minimal effort against the air travel system. Not commandeering the plane. That was maximal effort. But just blowing one or two out of the sky.

And I do think theres an increased inclination toward chaos compared to olden times. People weirdly radicalized. Driving vehicles into crowds. Etc.

ThatRobGuy said:
Is it actual non-stop harassment, or is it justifiable venting given the consequences when they do their jobs poorly?

Both. But there needs to be protection against the former.

ThatRobGuy said:
I can give an example of what happened to my co-worker.

Typically, the easiest thing to do is use the QR code boarding pass and bypass the counters altogether. The issue with that, is certain airports (like the Cleveland airport) are cellular dead zones once you get 20 feet in the building, and their wi-fi rarely works, so she had to go to the ticketing counter. Somewhere in the whole process, they overwrote her last name with a misspelled version, so after waiting in the TSA line for 45 minutes, the TSA agent stopped her from getting through because the name associated on the boarding pass didn't match the one on her ID.

So she had to go back to the ticketing counter again to have them correct it, and then wait in that long line again for a second time because they refused to give her one of those one-time "quick pass" sort of things where you can bypass the line and get right to the checkpoint.

In the case of the Cleveland airport, the TSA are just as rude as the Airline employees... admittedly, there have been ones in other airports like Denver where the experience was better.

My only guess as to why that may be is because at the major hubs (like Denver), there's a little more "supervisor presence" and the higher-ups are keeping a closer eye on things.

When you fly through 3rd world airports, like Cleveland - apparently, you really need your own hard copy if at all possible. Presumably that was her home airport because I recall you're there. If so, she'd have every opportunity to print before flying. I do realize its harder for visitors. And why on earth doesn't CLE fix its cel coverage? Thats not on TSA at all.

ThatRobGuy · Wednesday at 10:05 AM

durangodawood said:
When you fly through 3rd world airports, like Cleveland - apparently, you really need your own hard copy if at all possible. Presumably that was her home airport because I recall you're there. If so, she'd have every opportunity to print before flying. I do realize its harder for visitors. And why on earth doesn't CLE fix its cel coverage? Thats not on TSA at all.

She was actually from a different regional location heading back home after coming in for a corporate meeting...

But, the "showing your boarding pass along with your ID to get through security" seems to be a "feature" of only certain airports.

They make you do it every time at CLE.

Yet, any time I've flown back home from Philly, I've never had to show it, and it's hit or miss when I've flown back from Denver. My ID was enough for the TSA checkpoint. I'm assuming that's either due to the fact that they've felt that piece was unnecessary (you're already getting your compliant ID check that has a facial recognition scan and going through security -- so worst case scenario, a screened/unarmed person gets on the concourse -- not the end of the world)

Or perhaps some of the bigger airports have some better data integration with the airlines? But I would have to think that most if not all of the TSA hubs should be using the same software.

ThatRobGuy · Wednesday at 10:22 AM

durangodawood said:
When you fly through 3rd world airports, like Cleveland

Actually, when I saw the comedian Rich Vos perform in Cleveland some years back, he made a joke about it

He said the slogan for the airport should be "The Cleveland Airport: It's the Cleveland of airports"

Although to be fair, I've heard other recorded sets from him where he did the identical joke about Newark, so it's probably part of his usual schtick.

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