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Gal 2:16 and Rom 2:13 : Works of the Law Justifies or not?

SabbathBlessings

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Jesus can basically do nothing without you then? Is that your final answer?

Have you ever considered our disobedience serves His Perfect Judgment against it?
You are reading your own interpretation to what I said. There is no Scripture that says God can't make us perfect before He returns. He says there is a people who keep His commandments and have the faith of Jesus before He returns Rev 14:12 Rev 22:14. He came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 we are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30 and through our love and faith in Jesus and His power we can overcome John 14:150-18. Revelation speaks of a people who overcomes at least 7 times.

Disobedience is sin and rebellion against God and doesn't serve anyone but the father of it. 1 John 3:8 Rom 6:16

Lets pray we are in the first group. :heartpulse:
 
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RandyPNW

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The evil in no one chooses Christ. It resists God all the days of our lives. If we're honest about it.
I'm not being dishonest in saying that Sinful people can still choose Christ. The fact they have a spiritual contagion does not prevent their innate ability from exercising free will and choosing to do good.
The law didn't do Israel any favors. They were eventually defeated and scattered. And rightfully so.
You're very wrong in saying this. Paul said the Law did Israel lots of favors. See Romans 3.
No amount of freewill ever made anyone perfectly obedient. More along the lines of perfectly disobedient and deceitful, if anything. The notions that our supposed freewill gained us anything is a simple delusional fib.
Couldn't disagree more with you. The idea is never to be "perfectly obedient" since that would be denying our Sin Nature and claiming to be as good as Christ with no sin whatsoever. If sinners can do anything it is to be able to repent and choose to follow Christ.

And even if they don't choose to embrace him as Lord, they can agree to do some good things that God's word calls them to do. The ancient prophet Balaam was an evil man, and yet in one instance he chose to obey God and blessed Israel. He chose to do right.

I see. So your view is that without our freewill in action, everything about God, His Will, Work and Ways are meaningless and worthless?
Yes, that would be true. Everything God does for man is meaningless unless we are free to choose Him or to do good. We would be robots. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, even if you think as a sinner you cannot give a real one.
 
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ARBITER01

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Couldn't disagree more with you. The idea is never to be "perfectly obedient" since that would be denying our Sin Nature and claiming to be as good as Christ with no sin whatsoever. If sinners can do anything it is to be able to repent and choose to follow Christ.


Heb 6:1 Wherefore let us cease to speak of the first principles of Christ, and press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

On a side note,....I know there are a few people on here that still believe they have a sin nature, but the blood of Jesus eradicated that out of our being when our human spirit was renewed. We are able to be Christ-like, which is the perfection that we are to seek to live in.
 
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RandyPNW

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Heb 6:1 Wherefore let us cease to speak of the first principles of Christ, and press on unto perfection; not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

On a side note,....I know there are a few people on here that still believe they have a sin nature, but the blood of Jesus eradicated that out of our being when our human spirit was renewed. We are able to be Christ-like, which is the perfection that we are to seek to live in.

I never cease to be amazed how Christians think they can be *perfect.* There is a place where Jesus indicated Israel could be "perfect," but in context it had to do with doing things properly, instead of perfectly or sinlessly.

For example, to do things properly one under the Law was to bring a relatively unblemished animal for sacrifice, as opposed to one that the worshiper preferred to be rid of. To be "perfect," one was to offer his sacrifice properly, though certainly neither the worshiper nor the animal were truly perfectly healthy in all ways.

To "press on into perfection" sounds more like aiming towards the sinless Christ as opposed to believing one can do this in a perfect, sinless way.

I think you're reading too much into the sense of "perfection" when it comes to living in a Christian way. We are saved by grace, which is receiving Christ's sinless life into imperfect people to demonstrate that life imperfectly but effectively.
 
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ARBITER01

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I never cease to be amazed how Christians think they can be *perfect.* There is a place where Jesus indicated Israel could be "perfect," but in context it had to do with doing things properly, instead of perfectly or sinlessly.

For example, to do things properly one under the Law was to bring a relatively unblemished animal for sacrifice, as opposed to one that the worshiper preferred to be rid of. To be "perfect," one was to offer his sacrifice properly, though certainly neither the worshiper nor the animal were truly perfectly healthy in all ways.

To "press on into perfection" sounds more like aiming towards the sinless Christ as opposed to believing one can do this in a perfect, sinless way.

I think you're reading too much into the sense of "perfection" when it comes to living in a Christian way. We are saved by grace, which is receiving Christ's sinless life into imperfect people to demonstrate that life imperfectly but effectively.

There is certainly a faith factor involved also.

If you are not constantly improving with The Lord Jesus, then maybe you are just "abiding" as you said in another thread. Maybe you still do have a sin nature like you think you have..

There's always more with GOD,..... at least there is for some folks. I guess some folks are happy where they are at.

Now back to our regular scheduled programing,.....
 
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RandyPNW

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There is certainly a faith factor involved also.

If you are not constantly improving with The Lord Jesus, then maybe you are just "abiding" as you said in another thread. Maybe you still do have a sin nature like you think you have..

There's always more with GOD,..... at least there is for some folks. I guess some folks are happy where they are at.

Now back to our regular scheduled programing,.....
I'm facing reality. Nobody in the Christian world is happy with wars, deaths, and the sinful condition of the world. None of us likes imperfection. I feel sorry for you if you think you're the unblemished lamb of God, giving yourself sinlessly to suffer the sins of the world with perfect forgiveness for mankind.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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On a side note,....I know there are a few people on here that still believe they have a sin nature
Are you seriously claiming sinlessness post salvation?
 
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ARBITER01

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Are you seriously claiming sinlessness post salvation?

I'm claiming that The Holy Spirit will continually improve you towards Christ-likeness, which is the perfection that we are to pursue beyond the basic elements of Christianity., as the writer of Hebrews says.

If you are not constantly seeking to be like Jesus, then why not?
 
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ViaCrucis

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The central thesis of Romans can be found in Romans 1:16-17,

"For I am not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God to save all who believe, the Jew first and also the Greek; for by it the justice of God is revealed from faith to faith, as it is written, 'The just shall live by faith.'"

An underlying context for the Epistle to the Romans is that Paul is writing to a mixed community of believers: Jews and Gentiles. So, for example, when Paul says, "All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." (Romans 3:23) that "all" here means "Jews and Gentiles", it means everyone, but in context it means everyone, both Jews and Gentiles. The sinfulness of the Gentiles which is "obvious" in their Paganism (see Romans 1:18-32) is no more sinful than the sinfulness of the Jews, being Jewish and knowing God's Law does not render one any less sinful, and indeed if one imagines they are more righteous they are merely a judgmental hypocrite (Romans 2:1-5).

So the Law, in its righteous pronouncement, declares that all are condemned as sinners, both Jew and Gentile.

So let's look at the passage in Romans 2 mentioned by the OP:

"For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law, and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law. For it is not the hearers of the Law who are just before God, but the doers of the Law who will be justified. For when Gentiles, who do not have the Law, by nature do what the Law requires, they are a law unto themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the work of the Law is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness, and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even excuse them on that day, when, according to my gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus.

But if you call yourself a Jew and rely on the Law and boast in God and know His will and approve what is excellent, because you are instructed in the Law; and if you are sure that you yourself are a guide to the blind, a light to those who are in darkness, an instructor of the foolish, a teacher of children, having in the Law the embodiment of knowledge and truth--you then who teach others, do you not teach yourself? While you preach against stealing, do you steal? You who say that one must not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? Who you abhor idols, do you rob temples? You who boast in the Law dishonor God by breaking the Law. For, as it is written, 'The name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you.'

For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the Law, but if you break the Law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? Then he who is physically uncircumcised but keeps the Law will condemn you who have the written code and circumcision but break the Law. For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. But a Jew is one inwardly and circumcision a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God."
- Romans 2:12-29

Really soak all this in.

None of this is about how we can, by obeying the Law, become righteous before God. This is not, we would say, "How to get saved" language; this is, "Here is how you are condemned" language. This is about how one who thinks they are righteous because they have the Law and have learned the Law (aka Jews in context here) do not have a leg to stand on in righteous against their Gentile neighbors; because--for example--a Pagan Gentile who does not steal shows that they are closer to the Law than a Jewish person who steals. So simply knowing the Law--being a hearer of the Law, one who has been instructed and taught in the precepts of Torah--does not reckon one righteous--God actually says to do that which is just and righteous, not merely to know what is just and righteous. Knowing that it is wrong to steal does not make one righteous if one is stealing; you're actually supposed to not steal.

To properly understand where Paul is taking this line of thinking we have to continue into chapter 3. I am going to highlight a specific portion of Romans 3, but please do start from verse 1 of the chapter and go onward,

"Now we know that whatever the Law says it speaks to those who are under the Law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. For by works of the Law no human being will be justified in His sight, since through the Law comes knowledge of sin.

But now the justice of God has been manifested apart from the Law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it--the justice of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who trust. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by His grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as atonement by His blood to be received by faith. This was to show God's justice, because in His divine forbearance He had passed over former sins. It was to show His justice at the present time, so that He might be just and the justifier of the one who trusts in Jesus.
" - Romans 3:19-26

What Paul had been talking about was universal condemnation by the Law. The Law condemns both Jew and Gentile; so that no one is with excuse; knowing the Law does not justify one because knowledge of the Law only means that our disobedience to the Law condemns us as sinners; and not knowing the Law does not justify one because we still have conscience which condemns us for our lawlessness and sin. So that both the Jew and the Gentile stand accused as guilty, therefore all have sinned and fallen short; or as Paul had said earlier in this chapter, "There is no one who is just, not even one".

But even all have sinned and are condemned; so all who trust in the Messiah Jesus are justified, for Christ is the atonement who reconciles us to God, that through faith in Him we regarded just; not by what we have done; but by faith--out of the compassion and grace of God, not of our glory and self-assuredness.

From here onward Paul continues to speak of justification, in Romans 4 he will go back to Abraham and how Abraham "had faith and it was reckoned to him as justice", and also continuing into Romans 5. Though Paul will turn his attention at the end of Romans 5 and into Romans 6 about how God's grace, and our faith, does not permit us to merely sit on our laurels and think, "Since grace abounds, I can go on sinning", which Paul condemns. But this is for another conversation.

Here Paul is telling his audience in the Church in Rome, both Jew and Greek alike, that all stand condemned equally. The "doer of the Law" being justified is not said in isolation, it is in the context of everything Paul is talking about--we must understand the context and the thesis of Romans. The Gospel universally saves (that is, it saves all who believe, whether Jew or Gentile) because all are universally condemned already because of sin, both Jew and Gentile alike without distinction.

Romans is such a breathtakingly brilliant work, we should take the time to really dig into it--because simply taking it piecemeal really deprives one of the rich banquet of the epistle.

-CryptoLutheran
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I'm claiming that The Holy Spirit will continually improve you towards Christ-likeness, which is the perfection that we are to pursue beyond the basic elements of Christianity., as the writer of Hebrews says.

If you are not constantly seeking to be like Jesus, then why not?
I prefer simple honesty.

Honesty says we're no better than any other sinners, Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:9
 
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ARBITER01

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I prefer simple honesty.

Honesty says we're no better than any other sinners, Romans 3:9, 1 Tim. 1:9

I'm glad that you are so honest with me, by letting me know that you are still in bondage to your sins.

At least I know where you are coming from.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I'm glad that you are so honest with me, by letting me know that you are still in bondage to your sins.

At least I know where you are coming from.
Dominion over sin doesn't include lying about being sinless

Can't dominate over what you don't have
 
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ARBITER01

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Dominion over sin doesn't include lying about being sinless

Can't dominate over what you don't have

I think you have greater things to worry about mister "I'm no better than any other sinful person."

Look up the word regeneration and see if it applies.
 
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BelieveItOarKnot

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I think you have greater things to worry about mister "I'm no better than any other sinful person."

Look up the word regeneration and see if it applies.
Don't recall Jesus making anyone sinless in this present life
 
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ARBITER01

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BelieveItOarKnot

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I'm not listening to someone who is still dominated by sin.
God has tolerated sin from the moment He created.

Everything is less than His Perfection, including you and I.

Sorry to break the bad news to you. I'm OK with it.

Oh, and just so you know, there are very few claimants at his board or any other who claim they are sinless, so maybe engaging with just about anyone isn't a good idea for your position.
 
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