Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

ralliann said:

I already Gave you the scripture.
4 Then said the LORD unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no. {a certain … : Heb. the portion of a day in his day }
5 And it shall come to pass, that on the sixth day they shall prepare that which they bring in; and it shall be twice as much as they gather daily.
6 And Moses and Aaron said unto all the children of Israel, At even, then ye shall know that the LORD hath brought you out from the land of Egypt:
7 And in the morning, then ye shall see the glory of the LORD; for that he heareth your murmurings against the LORD: and what are we, that ye murmur against us?

22 ¶ And it came to pass, that on the sixth day they gathered twice as much bread, two omers for one man: and all the rulers of the congregation came and told Moses.
23 And he said unto them, This is that which the LORD hath said, To morrow is the rest of the holy sabbath unto the LORD: bake that which ye will bake to day, and seethe that ye will seethe; and that which remaineth over lay up for you to be kept until the morning.



Yeah, we are. You believe in a twenty four hour rest. In Christ it is a rest which never ends.
Another day...

You as well.

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That isn't even when the Sabbath was codified, so by your own example shows they were keeping the Sabbath way before Mt Sinai.

And God in His own Testimony told us when the Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11. Like I said, my faith is in what God says.

pasifika said:

if you go to Hebrew 4:4..it talks about the 7th day where God rest.

then verse 7..God set a certain day calling it "today" (not 7th day as in previous verse).

verse 8.. it's another day (another day of rest).

follow with an open mind..

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Cutting in the middle of a sentence and pasting to another sentence and than cutting off the definition it tells us it is, is not having an open mind, it is altering God's pure Word Pro 30:5-6 especially when it comes to God's own Testimony that He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. This gets sorted out soon enough.

SabbathBlessings said:

Cutting in the middle of a sentence and pasting to another sentence and than cutting off the definition it tells us it is, is not having an open mind, it is altering God's pure Word Pro 30:5-6 especially when it comes to God's own Testimony that He said He would not alter Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18

Guess we will have to agree to disagree. This gets sorted out soon enough.

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to show you the bigger picture in few verses. Anyways, yes we can agree to disagree.

SabbathBlessings said:

That isn't even when the Sabbath was codified, so by your own example shows they were keeping the Sabbath way before Mt Sinai.

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NUTS!
Continued.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

SabbathBlessings said:

And God in His own Testimony told us when the Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11. Like I said, my faith is in what God says.

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Here you go.
There was no Sabbath for Adam
Gen 3:17 ¶ And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
18 Thorns also and thistles shall it bring forth to thee; and thou shalt eat the herb of the field;
Ge 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken: for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return.

Anyway, back to my point.
Hebrews is not talking about "Saturday" Sabbath.

ralliann said:

NUTS!
Continued.
24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
25 And Moses said, Eat that to day; for to day is a sabbath unto the LORD: to day ye shall not find it in the field.
26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.
27 And it came to pass, that there went out some of the people on the seventh day for to gather, and they found none.
28 And the LORD said unto Moses, How long refuse ye to keep my commandments and my laws?

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God has already answered this by His own Testimony when the Sabbath started at Creation Exo 20:11. Hebrews is talking about both the rest we receive in Christ when we hear His voice and not harden our hearts to the deceitfulness of sin (Breaking God's law) and the seventh day Sabbath rest as already previously demonstrated.

Exo 20:11 For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them (Creation), and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

shabbath: Sabbath
Original Word: שַׁבָּת
Part of Speech: Noun
Transliteration: shabbath
Pronunciation: shah-BAHTH
Phonetic Spelling: (shab-bawth')
KJV: (+ every) sabbath
NASB: sabbath, sabbaths, every sabbath
Word Origin: [intensive from H7673 (שָׁבַת - To cease)]

And both rests including the seventh day Sabbath remains in the NC

Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

The counterfeit always comes after the original. God promised He would not alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34 if we can't believe God's own Words, I think we might be in some trouble because when it says we need to believe in Jesus to be saved, it means to embody and believe what He taught and lived as our example to follow. The Ten Commandments is God's Testimony both written and spoken Exo 31:18 the author in Hebrews was not editing something that God said He would not. This is rebellion and sin the EXACT thing the author was warning us of. No one can alter God's covenant, it was ratified by His blood at the Cross.

ralliann said:

Here you go.
There was no Sabbath for Adam

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According to Jesus the Sabbath was made for man. Mark 2:27
The only place when both the Sabbath and man was made was at Creation.

The Greek Word Jesus used here means mankind. The Hebrew words means Adam.


anthrópos: Man, human, person, mankind
Original Word: ἄνθρωπος
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: anthrópos
Pronunciation: AN-thro-pos
Phonetic Spelling: (anth'-ro-pos)
KJV: certain, man
NASB: man, men, people, man's, human, mankind

adam: Man, mankind, human, Adam
Original Word: אָדָם
Part of Speech: Noun Masculine
Transliteration: adam
Pronunciation: ah-DAHM
Phonetic Spelling: (aw-dawm')
KJV: X another, + hypocrite, + common sort, X low, man (mean, of low degree), person
NASB: man, men, man's, human, mankind, person, anyone
Word Origin: [from H119 (אָדַם - dyed red)]

pasifika said:

if you go to Hebrew 4:4..it talks about the 7th day where God rest.

then verse 7..God set a certain day calling it "today" (not 7th day as in previous verse).

verse 8.. it's another day (another day of rest).

follow with an open mind..

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It is definately talking of the rest with regards to Joshua.
After they had been given manna and the Sabbath

De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

21/2 tribes receive land on the other side of the Jordon
And he said to them
Deut 3:18 And I commanded you at that time, saying, The LORD your God hath given you this land to possess it: ye shall pass over armed before your brethren the children of Israel, all that are meet for the war. {meet … : Heb. sons of power }
19 But your wives, and your little ones, and your cattle, (for I know that ye have much cattle,) shall abide in your cities which I have given you;
20 Until the LORD have given rest unto your brethren, as well as unto you, and until they also possess the land which the LORD your God hath given them beyond Jordan: and then shall ye return every man unto his possession, which I have given you.


Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
They could not rest in their inheritance until their brethren could rest in theirs...

Jos 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.

Reminds me of this......
Concerning those from Abel to Abraham, moses.
They should not be full without us..

Hebrews 11:37 They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented;
38 (Of whom the world was not worthy they wandered in deserts, and in mountains, and in dens and caves of the earth.
39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. {provided: or, foreseen

Under the Ex 20 covenant it was a sin - to take God's name in vain.

And it is STILL a sin to do that - even for you, even for any christian that you meet.

So then read Eph 6:1-2 for the details

Bob S said:

Surely it is a sin.

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Indeed under the Gen 2 Old Covenant of "obey and live" it would be sin.
Under the Rom 3 Law that condemns all mankind as sinners - it is sin.
Under the 1 John 3:4 "sin is transgression of the Law" rule -- it is still sin.

Bob S said:

If we truly love Jesus will we take His name in vain?

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Good question.

In fact in John 14:15 "If you LOVE Me KEEP My commandments"
Ex 20:6 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"
1 John 5:3-4 "This is the LOVE of God that we KEEP His Commandments"

And clearly "do not take God's name in vain" is listed by God Himself as being in "His Commandments"

Heb 8 reminds us that it is Christ Himself speaking at Sinai.

Bob S said:

Laws dealing with morality are forever.

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Hence the TEN - kept distinct from all other law in the Ark such that Deut 5 reminds us that God spoke the ten "and added no more".

Leaving us with no excuse at all for not understanding that the TEN are included in the moral law of God.

No wonder that Is 66:23 reminds us that for all eternity after the cross in the new Earth "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall all mankind come before Me to worship" -- a day "made for mankind" Mark 2:27 as Christ said.

Even the TEN point us back to the making of mankind and the making of the Sabbath in Eden - Ex 20:11 referencing Gen 2:2-3

James 2 reminding us "To break one of them - is to break them all"

===================

It just does not get any easier than that.!!

pasifika said:

if you go to Hebrew 4:4..it talks about the 7th day where God rest.

then verse 7..God set a certain day calling it "today" (not 7th day as in previous verse).

verse 8.. it's another day (another day of rest).

follow with an open mind..

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The Creation Sabbath of Gen 2 is being used as a symbol of New Canaan - heaven, heavenly Canaan -- just as in Gal 4 Jersualem above "is our mother".

Gal 4
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

We still have mothers - even though this symbolism is used in Gal 4.

Heb 4 is using something that still remains - the Sabbath, and adding it as a symbol for saints waiting for heaven/eternal rest.

BobRyan said:

The Creation Sabbath of Gen 2 is being used as a symbol of New Canaan - heaven, heavenly Canaan -- just as in Gal 4 Jersualem above "is our mother".

Gal 4
24 This is allegorically speaking, for these women are two covenants: one proceeding from Mount Sinai bearing children who are to be slaves; she is Hagar. 25 Now this Hagar is Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present Jerusalem, for she is in slavery with her children. 26 But the Jerusalem above is free; she is our mother.

We still have mothers - even though this symbolism is used in Gal 4.

Heb 4 is using something that still remains - the Sabbath, and adding it as a symbol for saints waiting for heaven/eternal rest.

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yes the "sabbath rest" still remains. But the "day" you enter into has changed as per Hebrews 3&4. not 7th day but a day called "today".

this i believe is a "spiritual day" as it's not belongs to any particular day of the the 7day week.

That day only comes for each and everyone is when we "Believe" the Gospel message as in Hebrews 4:3..we who have "Believed" enter that "Rest".

so is not a 24hr day of rest as in creation day but a continuous and permanent Rest once we "Believe".

It should be a daily experience of entering His rest from sin and rebellion.

Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Sin is breaking God's laws 1 John 3:4

In Christ rest there is just peace Isa 48:18 so no one would be rebelling against Him and breaking God's law or sinning- what Hebrews 3 and 4 are clearly saying if being honest with the Text Heb 3:7-19 Heb 4:1-11

Why it goes on to say those who enter His rest-------- ALSO... please read this again. Those who enter His rest also, which means in addition- rest from their works as God did, on the seventh day. So those who enter Christ rest also rest with Him on the seventh day Sabbath, because God said the seventh day is the Sabbath Exo 20:10, why verse 9 says there remains a Sabbath-rest for the people of God and this verse literally means keeping the Sabbath.

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

God did not rest on the first day of the week, God did not rest on the second day or third day or 4th day or 5th or 6th. God rested on the seventh day, thus saith the Lord. Those who enter His rest ALSO cease from their works as God did on the seventh day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

God's people keep God's commandments and His Testimony, because He needs to be the center of our world and who we place our faith in. God promised not to alter the words of His covenant Psa 89:34- having no other gods before Him, will always remain, just like the 4th commandment - just the way God personally wrote and spoke it, because there is no greater Authority than He.

We see this same concept at the end of time which I believe we are getting close to. In the end there will only be two groups. Those who worship the beast and the Bible tells us whoever we obey is who we serve (worship) so if we are not obeying God, the way God said, who then by default are we serving?

Rev 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."

But here is the antidote obeying God the way God said and living by the same faith of Jesus. Jesus said come to Me, I will give you rest AND kept the weekly Sabbath. Just like our example Heb 4:10

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

God never made His law confusing- He wrote it He spoke it and made it so simple even a 10 year old could understand. He promised not to alter the words of His Covenant- as it is God's written and spoken will Psa 40:8 and Testimony Exo 31:18 and it sits under His mercy seat in the Most Holy of His Temple where justice and mercy will come together soon. He changed the placement of His law from written on stone to being written on the NC believers heart. Lets not remove a jot or tittle from God's law, I would be weary of removing anything that He covers with His mercy.

Exo 20:6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

I pray that we can all hear His voice calling on us daily to come our of our sin and rebellion to Him and His Law.

Joh 14:15 "If you love Me, keep My commandments.

pasifika said:

yes the "sabbath rest" still remains. But the "day" you enter into has changed as per Hebrews 3&4. not 7th day but a day called "today".

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Heb 4 quotes the Psalms saying that it was set as "TODAY" in David's day - referring to the day of salvation --- not referring to the 7th day Sabbath.

Hentenza said:

My brother we are not saved by works or the law.

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We all agree that the Bible speaks truth when it says "do not take God's name in vain" Ex 20:12
We all agree that complying with God's Word is not betrayal against God and trying to be saved by works.

It is not confusing in the case of "do not take God's name in vain"
It is also not confusing in the case of "Remember the Sabbath day... the Sabbath of the Lord thy God"

Hentenza said:

All Christians still sin and repent

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True. It is helpful to know what sin is.

1 John 3:4 "Sin IS transgression of the Law"

Hentenza said:

but the law of Jesus is what we now look to. Following the 10 commandments have always made good sense.

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Bob S said:

Sin is not loving God and not loving our fellow man. Sin is not trying to keep ritual laws of the Old Covenant, like keeping the weekly ritual Sabbath.

Read on, brother, in the same chapter, John tells us what the Law is. We belong to the truth if we believe in Jesus and love others as He taught. The Laws mankind is to live certainly are not the ritual ones given to only one nation, Israel, and ended at Calvary..

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God says not keeping the Sabbath is doing evil Neh 13:17 Isa 56:2 because who is it profaning? Eze 22:26

Jesus said we can still do evil on the Sabbath in the NC Luke 6:9

On the flip side Jesus said keeping the Sabbath is doing justice and righteousness and He blesses us Isa 56:1-2 which justice and righteousness is the foundation of His throne Psa 89:14 and the decisions we make on all these things will be sealed once He returns Rev 22:11

So yes, not keeping the Sabbath is sin as sin is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 and the Sabbath is a commandment of God Deut 4:13 Exo 20:1-17 Exo 20:6 , no different than worshipping others gods or murdering our brethren James 2:11-12. So I believe when it comes to what is moral or not, best to let God decide that, not us.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said we can still do evil on the Sabbath in the NC Luke 6:9

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Who was Jesus talking to in Luke 6:9?

Hentenza said:

Who was Jesus talking to in Luke 6:9?

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He was speaking to the Pharisees, but that doesn't matter.

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and the word He used means mankind Mark 2:27 so doing evil or doing good on the Sabbath would apply to all man. And this is not defined by us, but by God all throughout the Bible.

Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than committing adultery, murdering our brother or using God's name in vain.

Why Jesus taught

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

Doing evil is doing evil regardless who is doing it. God is impartial.

pasifika said:

Heb 4:7..God set a certain day calling it "Today"..

verse 8..if Joshua had given them rest God would not have spoken later about "another" Day.

Joshua couldn't be able to give Israel the rest on the 7th day as in the commandment.

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And that "Today" is in Christ, who is our full-time (Heb 4:4) Sabbath, where we rest full-time from our own works to save and in Jesus' work which saves to the uttermost.

SabbathBlessings said:

He was speaking to the Pharisees, but that doesn't matter.

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Is called context so it does matter. You can’t just make a verse say what you want just because you want it. Jesus is asking the Pharisees if it is unlawful to do good in the Sabbath So Jesus healed in the Sabbath making the Pharisees angry.

SabbathBlessings said:

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man and the word He used means mankind Mark 2:27 so doing evil or doing good on the Sabbath would apply to all man. And this is not defined by us, but by God all throughout the Bible.

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And Jesus is the Lord of the Sabbath. The Lord can change it as He wishes. And since Jesus fulfilled the law He also fulfilled the Sabbath.

SabbathBlessings said:

Breaking the Sabbath commandment is no different than committing adultery, murdering our brother or using God's name in vain.

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We are not under the law. Don’t you know that no one was ever saved by the law?

SabbathBlessings said:

Why Jesus taught

Mat 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mat 5:20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

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None of His commandments include the Sabbath. Once again context is everything. Jesus is giving the sermon on the mount and speaking primarily to Jews.

““Do not presume that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke of a letter shall pass from the Law, until all is accomplished!”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭17‬-‭18‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

When do you think is when it is accomplished? Jesus tells us as He is dying in the cross bring in the beginning of the new covenant. Out with the old, in with the new.

“Therefore when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, “It is finished!” And He bowed His head and gave up His spirit.”
‭‭John‬ ‭19‬:‭30‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬

SabbathBlessings said:

Doing evil is doing evil regardless who is doing it. God is impartial.

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If you want to live by the law then you will have to keep all of it. Good luck with that. Here is what Paul explains:

“For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all the things written in the book of the Law, to do them.” Now, that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “the righteous one will live by faith.” However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “The person who performs them will live by them.” Christ redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a curse for us—for it is written: “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”— in order that in Christ Jesus the blessing of Abraham would come to the Gentiles, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3‬:‭10‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB2020‬‬