-
Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.
Cessationism isn't biblical
- Thread starter Dustoff
- Start date
biblically speaking the HS and subsequent manifestations/gifts within the church seems presented as a ubiquitous experience tantamount to an identity of Christianity itself. If you didn't have it, then the next immediate step would be laying on of hands and there didn't seem to be vocabulary to dichtomize Spirit filled and non Spirit filled believers.
You seem to present a "it's not for everyone" sentiment which I think is misguided. Christ tells us to love our neighbour as ourself, this is a standard to strive for but not necessarily always grasped. So too can it be said for walking in the Spirit which is a for-every-moment standard that the likes of Wigglesworth I'm sure failed at but it's not a reason to throw up our hands and give up, but rather a reason to keep pursuing it.
The "gifts" in "spiritual gifts" (1 Cor 12:1,4) is "charisma" in Greek. The word for gift proper is "dorea" used in Acts for the gift of the HS (Acts doesn't use charisma and 1 Cor does use dorea). Charisma's root is Charis which is grace and I tend to understand it as grace given gifts or favour. As a single word you could say spiritual "graciousness" thst may be protested as reducing it to just generosity but that essentially what it is, the generosity of the Spirit.
Another biblical example of charisma is Rom 6:23 that we all know well "For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (NIV) Some translations will say "free gift" (NLT, ESV, NASB95) the most recent NASB (2020) says "gracious gift" which is a move back to its root of Charis (but it doesn't use that in 1 Cor 12). As you can imagine there is no word for "free" or "gift" in the passage, it's just charisma which is then identified as eternal life.
We don't speak of eternal life as a byproduct of salvation or "not for everyone one" but rather as a promise of salvation for all. I don't approach charisma of 1 Cor 12 any differently. It is a promise of the Spirit from his generosity. Jesus speaks of the Spirit's role in John 16:5-15 and after reading that it is hard to see how you can abide in Christ without also abiding in the Spirit with charisma an integral part and mouthpiece of Christ acting through us. I don't see this as optional participation no more than saying eternal life is optional participation.
Upvote
0
I think routine church activies--at least as practiced in the first century--did require people practicing the gifts of the Holy Spirit, and the problem today is most people cosplaying church without them.
Upvote
0
ARBITER01
Legend
- Aug 12, 2007
- 14,259
- 1,917
- 60
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Republican
You misinterpreted that.
The filling of The Holy Spirit is certainly available to every born from above Christian, but it is also a faith based event. The promise is there, but most people are talked out of having Him inside.
In other words, we have a lot of Christians in the body of Christ who are simply born again regenerated human spirits who lack The Holy Spirit inside because they were talked out of being filled with Him.
The evidence of The Holy Spirit inside a regenerated Christian is the gifts and fruits together according to scripture.
Upvote
0
ARBITER01
Legend
- Aug 12, 2007
- 14,259
- 1,917
- 60
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Republican
What you're saying is true, what he was saying though was that his routine church practices of communion and such were considered Holy Spirit gifts also, and scripture does not affirm that.
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 39,303
- 28,725
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
"By the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to hink of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned. For as in one body we have many members, and the members do not all have the same function, so we, though many, are one body in Christ, and individually members of one another. Having gifts that differ according to the grace given to us, let us use them: if prophecy, in proportion to our faith; if service, in our serving; the one who teaches, in his teaching; the one who exhorts, in his exhortation; the one who contributes, in generosity; the one who leads, with zeal; the one who does acts of mercy, with cheerfulness." - Romans 12:3-8
The suggestion that the ordinary activities of the Church are not gifts of the Spirit at work is a statement directly contradictory to the word of God. It is by the grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit that all things happen in the Church. The Gospel is preached, pastors exhort and teach and proclaim the word, the Sacraments are administered--for the very flesh and blood of Christ is given and received. When we come, the Spirit Himself is present, the Lord Himself having promised, "When two are three are gathered in My name, I am in their midst" means that when we come together as the Body of Christ and centered upon our Confession, gathered around God's word, gathered to receive God's gifts of Word and Sacrament, the Holy Spirit, His gifts, His grace, are there as He is in each of us, and He is there in our fellowship. That we should hear and believe, for faith itself is a precious gift. That we should be granted peace and joy from the Spirit, this too is a gift; for to hear the Gospel, which gives calm to our anxieties, which gives grants us courage in a world of fear--yes these are gifts. This is the power and work of the Spirit in us.
If this offends, then from whence comes the offense? Why should one who calls themself Christian be offended that the Spirit is with us, and it is by His grace and power, and His gifts, that our ordinary life of supernatural affection and fraternal accord exists?
-CryptoLutheran
The suggestion that the ordinary activities of the Church are not gifts of the Spirit at work is a statement directly contradictory to the word of God. It is by the grace and gifts of the Holy Spirit that all things happen in the Church. The Gospel is preached, pastors exhort and teach and proclaim the word, the Sacraments are administered--for the very flesh and blood of Christ is given and received. When we come, the Spirit Himself is present, the Lord Himself having promised, "When two are three are gathered in My name, I am in their midst" means that when we come together as the Body of Christ and centered upon our Confession, gathered around God's word, gathered to receive God's gifts of Word and Sacrament, the Holy Spirit, His gifts, His grace, are there as He is in each of us, and He is there in our fellowship. That we should hear and believe, for faith itself is a precious gift. That we should be granted peace and joy from the Spirit, this too is a gift; for to hear the Gospel, which gives calm to our anxieties, which gives grants us courage in a world of fear--yes these are gifts. This is the power and work of the Spirit in us.
If this offends, then from whence comes the offense? Why should one who calls themself Christian be offended that the Spirit is with us, and it is by His grace and power, and His gifts, that our ordinary life of supernatural affection and fraternal accord exists?
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
The basic concept of communion is that the Holy Spirit is in every participant. That's not something Pentecostals invented.
Upvote
0
ARBITER01
Legend
- Aug 12, 2007
- 14,259
- 1,917
- 60
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Republican
Sorry, but no.
There are a whole heap of people in this world who think they were automatically granted The Holy Spirit when they repented. Scripture does not affirm that.
Like I said, the gifts of The Holy Spirit flow out from those that are filled with Him.
I have church to attend, laters.
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 39,303
- 28,725
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
"But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control; against such things there is no law. And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.
If we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another." - Galatians 5:22-26
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
ViaCrucis
Confessional Lutheran
- Oct 2, 2011
- 39,303
- 28,725
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Others
Being conformed to the image of Christ is certainly an essential part of what being brought into God's kingdom means.
It would appear that the reason for why I posted that passage has escaped you.
I have learned already that engaging you in discussion is a fruitless and tiresome endeavor. I can do little except hope and pray that the Holy Spirit comes to you and through a real experience of the Spirit He breathes life in you. Let me be plain, I do not deny that the Spirit is in you; rather I am saying that you grieve, reject, and oppose the Spirit in that which He desires for you, to build you up in holiness and conforming you to the image of Christ, and to become a fruitful follower of Jesus who learns to exhibit the fruits of the Spirit.
May the God of peace grant you His peace, and may you be filled with the Holy Spirit.
-CryptoLutheran
Upvote
0
ARBITER01
Legend
- Aug 12, 2007
- 14,259
- 1,917
- 60
- Country
- United States
- Gender
- Male
- Faith
- Pentecostal
- Marital Status
- In Relationship
- Politics
- US-Republican
Agreed. It is also an essential part of our walk with Him. As Paul said "imitate me as I imitate Christ."
I think it would be very prudent on your part to acknowledge and adhere to you own words here in this case.
Upvote
0
Similar threads
