Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Hentenza said:

Your hypothesis to prove. I’m curious, how many laws do you propose that there actually are?

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Again, you are promoting a religion who preaches to the world that God created Laws impossible to obey, lied to His People who trusted Him, by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered men by the thousands when they rebelled against Him. And the Internet Copy and Paste is what they use to convince folks to adopt this popular religious philosophy of this world about this cruel and harsh God.

Are you a Levite Priest? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a virgin woman? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a married woman? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a King? Divorced? A slave?

The point being, God has never placed 613 Laws, or any impossible Laws to obey on the backs of anyone who Trusted in Him. To promote that HE did, is a deception.

How many Laws are you governed by in the country you live in now? If I used the same tactic used by the internet copy and paste you promoted, they would be 1000's of Laws.

Why not just give up trying to defend a lie designed to make God out as some Ogre that Jesus has to come and save us from?

After All, the Jesus of the Bible Obeyed God's Law Perfectly and we are instructed to be Perfect just as HE is Perfect. And Paul and I both "Pressed towards the Prize of this High Calling of God, that was in Christ Jesus", who HE Himself said was a Light Yoke. He did say to "Live by" Every Word of God as well. Perhaps instead of seeking God's truth through the internet, or some random religious sect or business of this world, you might consider "Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, to know His Love.

Hentenza said:

ETA: Each of the 18 incest and sodomy laws that you cited in your previous post are specific to a particular relative or persons and most in their own verse. They are not the same. The Lord can be very thorough.

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It is foolish, and ridiculous to promote 10 Speed limits when the speed limit is 55. It is stupid and deceptive to consider the Law not to engage in incest, and not to engage in sex with your sister as 2 different Laws. Just as it would be stupid to say "though shall not steal", and though shall not steal from your brother, neighbor, stranger, makes 4 Laws.

I know you understand the point I'm making. I'm not sure why you continue to justify and defend some random Jewish web site.

But you are free to do so. I simply wanted to point out to you the deception being promoted by it.

Clare73 said:

The dividing wall was in the Temple, and was also a metaphor for the animosity between OT Jews and Gentiles

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I thought you said it was the Wall of Hostility, not the Wall of Separation. But now you are calling it the Dividing Wall? Who is teaching you this stuff?

All I asked for Clare, is simply ONE Scripture from the Christ "of the Bible", or One verse from the entire Law and Prophets in which it is shown that the Temple of God is the dividing wall, or the Laws of God caused the Dividing Wall.

The reason why you can't find it, it because it is a lie to teach that God's Laws are what caused the dividing Wall. And a Lie that it was God's Laws that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

It's right there in your own Bible, you can read it for yourself. I can't make you believe it.

Clare73 said:

(Eph 2:14).
That dividing wall of animosity was broken down by Jesus in abolishing the laws and commandments and ordinances

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Whose Laws and Commandments? You keep refusing to answer my question. Is God the "circumcision" made with hands, that called the Faithful Gentiles "The Uncircumcision"? Are you really still preaching to others that it was God's Laws, Commandments and ordinances that relegated Faithful "Non-Jews", who "joined themselves to the Lord", as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

Come on Clare, it was either the commandments of men the rebellious Jews taught for doctrines, or the Commandments of God that relegated faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

I showed you God's commandments concerning Faithful gentiles, but you refused to even acknowledge them. Why would you do that?

Clare73 said:

--and offering a better way. . .the way of the cross.

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I should hope a better Priesthood. The one that was there had been taken over by the children of the devil, and were promoting lies about God. Of course Jesus exposed them and the commandments of men they taught for doctrines.

What is the difference if this world's preachers are also teaching lies about god, that HIS Laws relegated the Faithful Gentiles as without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

Studyman said:

Again, you are promoting a religion who preaches to the world that God created Laws impossible to obey, lied to His People who trusted Him, by telling them they could obey, then slaughtered men by the thousands when they rebelled against Him. And the Internet Copy and Paste is what they use to convince folks to adopt this popular religious philosophy of this world about this cruel and harsh God.

Are you a Levite Priest? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a virgin woman? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a married woman? Of course not, but you included Laws that governed them into your preaching that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men who trusted Him.

Are you a King? Divorced? A slave?

The point being, God has never placed 613 Laws, or any impossible Laws to obey on the backs of anyone who Trusted in Him. To promote that HE did, is a deception.

How many Laws are you governed by in the country you live in now? If I used the same tactic used by the internet copy and paste you promoted, they would be 1000's of Laws.

Why not just give up trying to defend a lie designed to make God out as some Ogre that Jesus has to come and save us from?

After All, the Jesus of the Bible Obeyed God's Law Perfectly and we are instructed to be Perfect just as HE is Perfect. And Paul and I both "Pressed towards the Prize of this High Calling of God, that was in Christ Jesus", who HE Himself said was a Light Yoke. He did say to "Live by" Every Word of God as well. Perhaps instead of seeking God's truth through the internet, or some random religious sect or business of this world, you might consider "Seeking the Kingdom of God and HIS Righteousness, to know His Love.



It is foolish, and ridiculous to promote 10 Speed limits when the speed limit is 55. It is stupid and deceptive to consider the Law not to engage in incest, and not to engage in sex with your sister as 2 different Laws. Just as it would be stupid to say "though shall not steal", and though shall not steal from your brother, neighbor, stranger, makes 4 Laws.

I know you understand the point I'm making. I'm not sure why you continue to justify and defend some random Jewish web site.

But you are free to do so. I simply wanted to point out to you the deception being promoted by it.

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All these words and you did not answer any of my post. Grandstanding anyone?

BNR32FAN said:

And to enter into that rest we must believe, that’s the premise of the passage. It doesn’t say anything about observing the Saturday sabbath. “For we who have believed have entered into that rest” Hebrews 4:3 The entire previous chapter is about remaining steadfast in our faith and is carried over into chapter 4 hence the word “Therefore” being the first word in chapter 4.

Why do you suppose God said “They shall not enter into My rest”? Was He saying that they shall not rest on the Sabbath? Because they did rest on the Sabbath because it was enforced by law and the consequence of not resting on the Sabbath was to be put to death. The Pharisees rested every Saturday. Did they enter into God’s rest?

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The rest God gives is from sin.

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.4 For mine iniquities are gone over mine head: as an heavy burden they are too heavy for me.

Mat 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. 29 Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am [a]gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. 30 For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”

Jesus said this and still kept the weekly Sabbath commandment Luke 4:16 John 15:10

The rest Jesus is giving us when we come to Him without a hardened heart, is rest from our sins. Jesus came to save us from our sins Mat 1:21 we are not saved in our sins Heb 10:26-30 Sin is breaking God’s law 1 John 3:4 His version James 2:11-12 Exo 20:1-17 Deut 4:13 , not mans

Hebrews 4 is a continuation of Hebrews 3 and quotes from the OT. The reason the Israelites could not enter into Christ rest was due to rebellion and sin, which is the definition of unbelief.

Eze 20:13 Yet the house of Israel rebelled against Me in the wilderness; they did not walk in My statutes; they despised My judgments, 'which, if a man does, he shall live by them'; and they greatly defiled My Sabbaths. Then I said I would pour out My fury on them in the wilderness, to consume them.

Heb 3:7 Therefore, as the Holy Spirit says: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE,
Heb 3:8 DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION, IN THE DAY OF TRIAL IN THE WILDERNESS,
Heb 3:9 WHERE YOUR FATHERS TESTED ME, TRIED ME, AND SAW MY WORKS FORTY YEARS.
Heb 3:10 THEREFORE I WAS ANGRY WITH THAT GENERATION, AND SAID, 'THEY ALWAYS GO ASTRAY IN THEIR HEART, AND THEY HAVE NOT KNOWN MY WAYS.'
Heb 3:11 SO I SWORE IN MY WRATH, 'THEY SHALL NOT ENTER MY REST.' "
Heb 3:12 Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God;
Heb 3:13 but exhort one another daily, while it is called "TODAY," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
Heb 3:14 For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end,
Heb 3:15 while it is said: "TODAY, IF YOU WILL HEAR HIS VOICE, DO NOT HARDEN YOUR HEARTS AS IN THE REBELLION."
Heb 3:16 For who, having heard, rebelled? Indeed, was it not all who came out of Egypt, led by Moses?
Heb 3:17 Now with whom was He angry forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose corpses fell in the wilderness?
Heb 3:18 And to whom did He swear that they would not enter His rest, but to those who did not obey?
Heb 3:19 So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

Heb 4:6 Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience,
Heb 4:11 Let us therefore be diligent to enter that rest, lest anyone fall according to the same example of disobedience.

Those who do enter His rest ALSO (which means in addition) cease from their work as God did on the seventh day.

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

God did not rest on the first day of the week, God did not rest on the second day or third day or 4th day or 5th or 6th. God rested on the seventh day, thus saith the Lord. Those who enter His rest ALSO cease from their works as God did on the seventh day.

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.
Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

We are made in the image of God to follow Him and Heb 4:10 is a good example of this.

Why
Heb 4:9 There remains, then, a Sabbath-rest for the people of God;
Exo 20:8 "Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.
Exo 20: but the seventh day is the Sabbath
My holy day, the holy day of the Lord Isa 58:13
Eze 20:12 Moreover I also gave them My Sabbaths, to be a sign between them and Me, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.
Eze 20:20 hallow My Sabbaths, and they will be a sign between Me and you, that you may know that I am the LORD your God.'
Isa 56:1 Thus says the LORD: "Keep justice, and do righteousness, For My salvation is about to come, And My righteousness to be revealed.
Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Isa 56:6 "Also the sons of the foreigner Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him, And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And holds fast My covenant
Rev 7:3 saying, "Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads."
Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass That from one New Moon to another, And from one Sabbath to another, All flesh shall come to worship before Me," says the LORD.

Just like the Israelites were tested so are we. Are we going to make the same mistakes or stay faithful to what God said, the way God said it. God wrote it God spoke it and called it His Testimony Exo 31:18 under His mercy seat, as far as I know there is no greater than He.

The original always comes before the counterfeit.

PS: The Pharisees were not keeping God's Sabbath, they kept their own sabbath which is why Jesus was constantly correcting them on how it is to be kept.

Studyman said:

Who was Free?

Abraham, who God said "obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws."

or the men of Sodom? "But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the LORD exceedingly."

Who was Free?

Caleb, who God said; But my servant Caleb, because he had another spirit with him, and hath followed me fully, him will I bring into the land whereinto he went; and his seed shall possess it.

or Achan? "And Achan answered Joshua, and said, Indeed I have sinned against the LORD God of Israel, and thus and thus have I done:"

Who is free?

Ez. 20:20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him. 21 But "if the wicked" will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, (Repents, turns to God and brings forth works worthy of repentance, as Paul teaches,) and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.

OR.

24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.


Who is free?

Matt. 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

OR

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock: 25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.

Who is Free.

Romans 6: 16 Know ye not, that to whom ye "yield yourselves" servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, "or" of obedience unto righteousness?

Who is free?

Matt. 13: 41 The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; 42 And shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

OR:

43 Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear.

Who was free?

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

OR;

Mark 7: 9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

I don't think, according to your post, that you have any idea what the difference is between Being "Free to serve God" or be "Held Captive by Sin".

If you would answer the questions I asked honestly, perhaps we can continue.

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Those whom the promises have come.

BobRyan said:

Heb 10:4-12 speaking of the laws for animal sacrifice and ceremonial offierings...
"He takes away the first to establish the second"

that ceremonial law of sacrifice and offerings was "taken away" at the cross - according to Heb 10.

By contrast "there REMAINS therefore a SABBATH rest for the people of God" Heb 4

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The rest of Hebrews is not
Ex 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.


It is this.
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

De 3:20 Until the LORD have given rest unto your brethren, as well as unto you, and until they also possess the land which the LORD your God hath given them beyond Jordan: and then shall ye return every man unto his possession, which I have given you.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.
Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua }
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or,

ralliann said:

The rest of Hebrew is not
Ex 16:26 Six days ye shall gather it; but on the seventh day, which is the sabbath, in it there shall be none.


It is this.
De 12:9 For ye are not as yet come to the rest and to the inheritance, which the LORD your God giveth you.

De 3:20 Until the LORD have given rest unto your brethren, as well as unto you, and until they also possess the land which the LORD your God hath given them beyond Jordan: and then shall ye return every man unto his possession, which I have given you.

Jos 21:44 And the LORD gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the LORD delivered all their enemies into their hand.
Jos 22:4 And now the LORD your God hath given rest unto your brethren, as he promised them: therefore now return ye, and get you unto your tents, and unto the land of your possession, which Moses the servant of the LORD gave you on the other side Jordan.
Jos 23:1 And it came to pass a long time after that the LORD had given rest unto Israel from all their enemies round about, that Joshua waxed old and stricken in age.

Heb 4:8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day. {Jesus: that is, Joshua }
Heb 4:9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. {rest: or,

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There are two rest in Hebrews not one. There's always been more than one rest in Scripture Exo 20:8-11 Exo 33:14 Hebrews is mainly quoting OT. Regarding Joshua, yes the name translates into Jesus, but Joshua is not Jesus. He might be a type of Christ but he is not Christ.

The Greek word for rest in Heb 4:8 is not the same rest , has nothing to do with the Sabbath

katapauó: To cause to rest, to bring to a stop, to quiet
Original Word: καταπαύω
Part of Speech: Verb
Transliteration: katapauó
Pronunciation: kat-ap-ow'-o
Phonetic Spelling: (kat-ap-ow'-o)
KJV: cease, (give) rest(-rain)
NASB: rested, given rest, restrained
Word Origin: [from G2596 (κατά - according) and G3973 (παύω - cease)]

1. to settle down
2. (literally) to colonize
3. (figuratively) to (cause to) desist

From kata and pauo; to settle down, i.e. (literally) to colonize, or (figuratively) to (cause to) desist -- cease, (give) rest(-rain).

Heb 4:9 the Greek word here literal translates into keeping the Sabbath

sabbatismos: Sabbath rest
Original Word: σαββατισμός
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: sabbatismos
Pronunciation: sab-bat-is-mos'
Phonetic Spelling: (sab-bat-is-mos')
Definition: Sabbath rest
Meaning: a keeping of the Sabbath, a Sabbath rest.

And we see clearly there are two rests in verse 10

Heb 4:10 For he who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.
Heb 4:4 For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way: "AND GOD RESTED ON THE SEVENTH DAY FROM ALL HIS WORKS";

Many of the Israelites never entered their rest into Canaan due to disobedience as shown in Jesus claimed He came to fulfill the Law, Did He?

Hebrews was written decades after the Cross. The apostles were not commissioned to change God's own Testimony and the law of God that God said He would not alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18. God's covenant ratified at the Cross- nothing could be changed, at least not with God's blessing.

The apostles were not commissioned to undermine the authority of Jesus Christ, did Jesus ever teach the Sabbath, God's holy day, was done away with? He is Lord of the Sabbath Mat 2:28 who gives anyone the right to do away with God's Sabbath commandment. He prophesized it would be kept by His faithful 40 years after the Cross Mat 24:20 and for eternity Isa 66:23 what God blesses, man cannot reverse Num 23:20

The apostles also faithfully kept every Sabbath decades after the Cross Acts 15:21 Acts 16:13 Acts 17:2 preaching to both Jews and Gentiles every Sabbath Acts 13:42 Acts 13:44 Acts 18:4 etc.

They observed the Sabbath just as God commanded them as the Sabbath is a commandment of God, no different than only worshipping God or murdering our neighbor James 2:11-12 it is the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 that sits under His mercy seat that all man will be judged by James 2:11-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 Rev 22:14-15 why its revealed at the last trumpet before the Second Coming of Jesus Christ Rev 11:18-19 regardless if we choose to accept His written and spoken will Psa 40:8 and Testimony Exo 31:18 or not. Many never entered His rest in the OT due to these same issues, we are told not to follow their path of disobedience.

Lets enter our rest though faith and being obedient to God, the way God said and trust He knows what is best for us, even if it doesn't always make sense to us, that is what faith is all about.

Isa 48:18 Oh, that you had heeded My commandments! Then your peace would have been like a river, And your righteousness like the waves of the sea.

Its the same choices we have if we are not blessed by God, that only leaves one other option.

Deut 30:15 “See, I have set before you today life and good, death and evil, 16 in that I command you today to love the Lord your God, to walk in His ways, and to keep His commandments, His statutes, and His judgments, that you may live and multiply; and the Lord your God will bless you in the land which you go to possess. 17 But if your heart turns away so that you do not hear, (Heb 3:7-19) and are drawn away, and worship other gods and serve them, 18 I announce to you today that you shall surely perish; you shall not prolong your days in the land which you cross over the Jordan to go in and possess.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;

Isa 56:2 Blessed is the man who does this, And the son of man who lays hold on it; Who keeps from defiling the Sabbath, And keeps his hand from doing any evil."
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city.

Hentenza said:

All these words and you did not answer any of my post. Grandstanding anyone?

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I am simply pointing out the lie and deception of the internet sermon you are promoting to others. Don't let your pride cause you to further the lies about God, that this world's religious system have promoted since Eve was convinced by another voice who "Professed to know God", and even quoted some of God's Words, that God lied to her.

The Truth is that God has never, in the entire History of the Holy Scriptures, placed 613 Laws, or impossible laws to obey, on the necks of anyone who joined themselves to Him. To make such a judgment against God is an evil wickedness, and is not true.

Yes, it is a popular religious philosophy promoted by the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters, and Yes, it is the foundation of mainstream religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, in this world God placed us in.

But it's a Lie just the same, created and promoted by the father of Lies, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

It's not grandstanding, you have your own Bible, and Jesus' instruction to "Live by" the Words of the God given to us in it.

Please stop promoting this wicked lie that God placed 613 Laws on the Backs of men who trusted in Him. He does hear and see you.

Studyman said:

I am simply pointing out the lie and deception of the internet sermon you are promoting to others. Don't let your pride cause you to further the lies about God, that this world's religious system have promoted since Eve was convinced by another voice who "Professed to know God", and even quoted some of God's Words, that God lied to her.

The Truth is that God has never, in the entire History of the Holy Scriptures, placed 613 Laws, or impossible laws to obey, on the necks of anyone who joined themselves to Him. To make such a judgment against God is an evil wickedness, and is not true.

Yes, it is a popular religious philosophy promoted by the Catholic religion and her Protestant daughters, and Yes, it is the foundation of mainstream religions who call Jesus Lord, Lord, in this world God placed us in.

But it's a Lie just the same, created and promoted by the father of Lies, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience.

It's not grandstanding, you have your own Bible, and Jesus' instruction to "Live by" the Words of the God given to us in it.

Please stop promoting this wicked lie that God placed 613 Laws on the Backs of men who trusted in Him. He does hear and see you.

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My brother I’ve posted no sermon nor am I prideful. I posted a list of the 613 commandments with their respective Bible verses. You took offense to 18 but did not support your objection. Let me remind you that it is your hypothesis that there isn’t 613 commandments so the burden of proof is yours. Either defend it or stop promoting it.

I asked you how many laws do you think actually are but you did not respond. I commented that the 18 incest and sodomy laws that you took offense to are not the same but define crimes against particular people and, just about each one, has its own verse. But you did not commented on this either. If all you are going to post is your opinion then nice talking with you.

BobRyan said:

And yet it is "still sin" for even a Christian to "take God's name in vain"

Predictive law (Passover) ends when the event it predicts happen.
Prescriptive law remains - so for example Ex 20:7

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My brother we are not saved by works or the law. All Christians still sin and repent but the law of Jesus is what we now look to. Following the 10 commandments have always made good sense.

Studyman said:

I thought you said it was the Wall of Hostility, not the Wall of Separation. But now you are calling it the Dividing Wall? Who is teaching you this stuff?
All I asked for Clare, is simply ONE Scripture from the Christ "of the Bible", or One verse from the entire Law and Prophets in which it is shown that the Temple of God is the dividing wall, or the Laws of God caused the Dividing Wall.

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So you exclude the letters of Paul:
"he. . .has broken down the dividing wall of hostility (the law) by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances" (Eph 2:14-15).

We have no basis for discussion.

Hentenza said:

My brother we are not saved by works or the law. All Christians still sin and repent but the law of Jesus is what we now look to. Following the 10 commandments have always made good sense.

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Keeping in mind that their standard: "do no harm," falls short of the New Covenant standard: "love one another as I have loved you." (Jn 13:34)

The New Covenant has God's laws now written in the heart Heb 8:10 not a law. Breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12. Why Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of these commandments and in doing so one would be in fear of sin and judgement Mat 5:19-30

"he. . .has broken down the dividing wall of hostility (the law) by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances" (Eph 2:14-15).

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It says commandments contained in ordinances so we know where to look for these, in the law of Moses, not the Ten Commandments.

Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

I wrote a post in detail what this means a while back ...I'll just place it here

When Adam and Eve sinned God put enmity between the devil and his seed (devils people) and her Seed (God's people)

Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel."

God separated His people out of the bondage of the devil and called them the nation of Israel.

Lev 20:24 But I have said to you, "You shall inherit their land, and I will give it to you to possess, a land flowing with milk and honey." I am the LORD your God, who has separated you from the peoples.
1Ki 8:53 For You separated them from among all the peoples of the earth to be Your inheritance, as You spoke by Your servant Moses, when You brought our fathers out of Egypt, O Lord GOD."

Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12. God's law is the description of sin Rom 7:7

In the OT the prescription for sin when breaking God's law was animal sacrifices

Lev 4:1 Now the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,
Lev 4:2 "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'If a person sins unintentionally against any of the commandments of the LORD in anything which ought not to be done, and does any of them,
Lev 4:3 if the anointed priest sins, bringing guilt on the people, then let him offer to the LORD for his sin which he has sinned a young bull without blemish as a sin offering.

The gentiles or foreigners did not have access to the cure for sin unless they were circumcised as an adult- ouch

Exo 12:43 And the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "This is the ordinance of the Passover: No foreigner shall eat it.
Exo 12:44 But every man's servant who is bought for money, when you have circumcised him, then he may eat it.
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger dwells with you and wants to keep the Passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as a native of the land. For no uncircumcised person shall eat it.

So foreigners who sinned could not gain access to the system of the cure for sin unless they were circumcised. They would often have to travel far to get to the temple.

When Jesus died on the Cross He removed that enmity between the devil's seed and His Seed.

The veil of the earthy temple tore in 70AD which signified that this old system of the prescription of sin ended.
Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split,

He took that old system for the prescription of sin and nailed it to the Cross. Jesus in dying for our sins became our circumcision.

Heb 10:19 Therefore, brethren, having boldness to enter the Holiest by the blood of Jesus,
Heb 10:20 by a new and living way which He consecrated for us, through the veil, that is, His flesh,

Eph 2:14 For He Himself is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation,
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

Col 2:11 In Him you were also circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
Col 2:14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

So we have a new system for sin because the old one never really took away sins, it was always a placeholder for Jesus Christ

Heb 9:10 concerned only with foods and drinks, various washings, and fleshly ordinances imposed until the time of reformation.
Heb 9:11 But Christ came as High Priest of the good things to come, with the greater and more perfect tabernacle not made with hands, that is, not of this creation.
Heb 9:12 Not with the blood of goats and calves, but with His own blood He entered the Most Holy Place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption.
Heb 9:13 For if the blood of bulls and goats and the ashes of a heifer, sprinkling the unclean, sanctifies for the purifying of the flesh,
Heb 9:14 how much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Heb 10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect.
Heb 10:2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins.
Heb 10:3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year.
Heb 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins.
Heb 10:5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said: "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING YOU DID NOT DESIRE, BUT A BODY YOU HAVE PREPARED FOR ME.
Heb 10:6 IN BURNT OFFERINGS AND SACRIFICES FOR SIN YOU HAD NO PLEASURE.
Heb 10:7 THEN I SAID, 'BEHOLD, I HAVE COME—IN THE VOLUME OF THE BOOK IT IS WRITTEN OF ME—TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD.' "
Heb 10:8 Previously saying, "SACRIFICE AND OFFERING, BURNT OFFERINGS, AND OFFERINGS FOR SIN YOU DID NOT DESIRE, NOR HAD PLEASURE IN THEM" (which are offered according to the law),
Heb 10:9 then He said, "BEHOLD, I HAVE COME TO DO YOUR WILL, O GOD." He takes away the first that He may establish the second.
Heb 10:10 By that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

Circumcision is no longer of the flesh but that of the heart and being a new creation in Christ-

Rom 2:29 but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.
Gal 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision avails anything, but a new creation.


Sin is still the same as it was in the Old Testament. It is still sin to murder, covet, vain God's name, worshipping other gods or break the least of these commandments Mat 5:19-30 1 John 3:4 Rom 7:7 James 2:11-12

Why Paul said
1Co 7:19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.

The difference in the New Covenant is how we go about the prescription for sins. No longer an animal sacrifice Heb 10:1-22 Heb 9:10-15 no longer at the temple of Jerusalem no longer required to get physical circumcised now everyone has access to the cure for sin (no more separation) which is Jesus Christ who became our Passover Lamb 1 Cor 5:7

Jesus made our bodies a temple and dwelling place for the Holy Spirit Eph 2:22 if we have not harden our hearts to sin and rebellion. Heb 3:7-8 and kept that enmity between us and God by rebelling against God's law Rom 8:7-8. When we sin, which God's law is the description of sin Exo 20:1-17 James 2:11-12 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 we can go directly to Jesus in prayer when we are really sorry and repent and through His Spirit He can help us overcome temptation and forsake our sins Pro 28:13 1 John 1:9 and help us keep His commandments 14:15-18 why He preached repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand

Hentenza said:

My brother I’ve posted no sermon nor am I prideful.

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You are a better man than me. I struggle with Pride every day.

Hentenza said:

I posted a list of the 613 commandments with their respective Bible verses.

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No my friend, you didn't. You posted a list from an internet site to justify a popular religious teaching of this world, that God created Laws impossible to obey. The entire premise if a lie.

Hentenza said:

You took offense to 18 but did not support your objection.

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No my friend, I simply showed you one of many examples of the deception used by the Author of this list to make it appear that God created this huge number, 613 Laws, and placed them on the backs of men who trusted Him. For the purpose of justifying another Lie taught to us sine we were children by this world's religious system, that God placed on the backs of men, Laws impossible to obey. That God placed on the necks of men "A Yoke of Bondage" It's an insidious lie.

Consider the Law this one example I showed you.

Lev. 18: 6 None of you shall approach to any that is near of kin to him, to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

Then God goes on the define what "Kin" are.

7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

The Author counts this as many Laws to promote the deception you have adopted. But God defining what "Kin" is, are not separate Laws. And only a deceiver wanting to make God look bad would even try and make the case.

The Facts are, God NEVER placed on the back of even ONE PERSON, 613 Laws. Why is it so difficult for you to accept this undeniable Biblical Fact?

Hentenza said:

Let me remind you that it is your hypothesis that there isn’t 613 commandments so the burden of proof is yours. Either defend it or stop promoting it.

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I already have in just one example. But you don't care if it's a deception or not. Here is what you said "How about the other 595 laws?"

So this lie I exposed in this list, doesn't mean anything to you. I can show you many more deceptions in this list, as I have discerned it. How many lies and deception must I show you before you will stop spearing the Lie that God placed 613 Laws on the backs of men in the OT?

Is it the Spirit of Christ that causes or promotes these deceptions?

Hentenza said:

I asked you how many laws do you think actually are but you did not respond.

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Now come on brother, You have a bible. Read it for yourself. If you can't even acknowledge the truth about Lev. 18, spoken to you by God, why would you listen to me. If you were honest, you would have already discerned this list, and came to the same conclusion as I did.

Hentenza said:

I commented that the 18 incest and sodomy laws that you took offense to are not the same but define crimes against particular people and, just about each one, has its own verse.

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Look, I know you are not a prideful man in your view. And I get that you can't concede to anyone on a public forum, or admit a mistake or error.

But are you really going to try and tell me that Lev. 18 is a list of 18-20 separate Laws concerning incest?

I don't care if you acknowledge the foolishness of such a religious philosophy on a public forum. I know how important it is for men, with no pride, to never be corrected. But when you are home, and no one is around or watching, please consider just how stupid it is to preach to others that;

If the speed limit is 55, and it is written, "thou shall not drive 60, "thou shall not drive 65", "thou shall not drive 70", "thou shall not drive 75", "thou shall not drive 80", "thou shall not drive 85", "thou shall not drive 90", "thou shall not drive 95", "thou shall not drive 100", and then tell you, "The state has placed a Yoke of Bondage of 10 speed limit laws".

Just as it is intellectually dishonest to preach:

6 None of you shall approach to any that is "near of kin to him", to uncover their nakedness: I am the LORD.

7 The nakedness of thy father, or the nakedness of thy mother, shalt thou not uncover: she is thy mother; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

8 The nakedness of thy father's wife shalt thou not uncover: it is thy father's nakedness.

9 The nakedness of thy sister, the daughter of thy father, or daughter of thy mother, whether she be born at home, or born abroad, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover.

10 The nakedness of thy son's daughter, or of thy daughter's daughter, even their nakedness thou shalt not uncover: for theirs is thine own nakedness.

11 The nakedness of thy father's wife's daughter, begotten of thy father, she is thy sister, thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

12 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's sister: she is thy father's near kinswoman.

13 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister: for she is thy mother's near kinswoman.

14 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy father's brother, thou shalt not approach to his wife: she is thine aunt.

15 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy daughter in law: she is thy son's wife; thou shalt not uncover her nakedness.

16 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy brother's wife: it is thy brother's nakedness.

17 Thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of a woman and her daughter, neither shalt thou take her son's daughter, or her daughter's daughter, to uncover her nakedness; for they are her near kinswomen: it is wickedness.

And call them 12 separate Laws.

Now you are free to adopt and promote whatever internet preaching you want. But the undeniable Biblical Truth is, God never placed a 613 Law "Yoke of Bondage" on even one man in the entire bible, Even His Own Son.

If you don't know this is a Lie you are promoting, that is one thing. But if you continue promoting the Lie even after your are shown it is a lie, that is something different altogether.

Hentenza said:

But you did not commented on this either. If all you are going to post is your opinion then nice talking with you.

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FYI, there is not one person in the History of the Bible, that God placed 613 laws on. NOT One Person. This is an insidious lie furthered by the promoters of this world's religious system. It is not true, and you can find no evidence in the Bible that it is true. Don't fall for the deception of the internet.

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I asked for evidence from the bible that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him. You copy and pasted an internet page from a religious web site called "Jewfaq".

It's always good to expose these evil and wicked philosophies, like the one that promote that God placed 613 Laws on the necks of men who trusted Him.

Even if men continue to promote them, at least they can't say someone didn't show them the deception.

I'm sure, since you have no pride, that you will want the last word. You can have it.

SabbathBlessings said:

It says commandments contained in ordinances so we know where to look for these, in the law of Moses, not the Ten Commandments.
Eph 2:15 having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace,

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I'm sure you'll understand if the focus of the born again is on Jesus' new command of the New Covenant: "love one another as I have loved you" (Jn 13:34), rather than on the obsolete Old Covenant (Heb 8:13) Decalogue: "do no harm."

Bob S said:

"I don't necessarily see the Ten Commandments being obsolete, merely relativized." FireDragon

Did you bother to read the following?

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: 8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

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It doesn't say the Ten Commandments was "done away with" it say they went from written on stone to written on the heart 2 Cor 3:3 Heb 8:10

Paul said breaking the Ten Commandments is dishonoring God Rom 2:21-23 and sin Rom 7:7 and being an enmity to God Rom 8:7-8 basically how we are lost.

Is Paul really teaching people how to be lost when Jesus comes? Gal 5:19-21 Mat 7:21-23 Rev 22:14-15 Heb 10:26-30

The verse you quoted tells us what was done away with

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

When Moses came down from Mt Sinai and was in the presence of God his face shown where the people of Israel could not look at his face and why he had to wear a veil.

For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

What was more glorious is the face of Jesus who replaced the face of Moses ministering through His Spirit John 14:15-18 in the New Covenant and the veil was removed.

2Co 3:8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious?

Is Paul really teaching we can now murder our neighbor, worship other gods and break the least of these commandments, the opposite of what Jesus taught and lived Mat 5:19-30 John 15:10

Of course not, its a sad, mistranslating the apostles Paul who I am sure would be mortified what people have done to his writings to teach against the Testimony of God Exo 31:18 who he was a servant to and as should we.

Clare73 said:

So you exclude the letters of Paul:
"he. . .has broken down the dividing wall of hostility (the law) by abolishing in his flesh the law of commandments and ordinances" (Eph 2:14-15).

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From Isaiah to Malachi to the Jesus "of the Bible", we are told that the Jews, who God gave His Oracles to, who were in charge of the City of David, and the Temple, rejected His Laws, and taught for doctrines the "Commandments and ordinances of men".

The Jews didn't promote God's Laws I posted from Leviticus because they didn't believe Moses. The Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", were not God's Commandments.

Read what is actually written, not just 1/2 of one sentence.

Clare73 said:

We have no basis for discussion.

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What discussion Clare?

Paul called the Body of Christ, both Jew and Gentile, "The Circumcision".

Phil. 3: 3 For we (Jew and Gentile in the Body of Christ) are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Do you only believe Paul when his words can be used to justify your adopted religion?

I asked you over and over, "Who is calling the Faithful Gentiles the Uncircumcised?" in Paul's 2nd letter to the Ephesians? Was it God? Or the Pharisees?

But Clare, you completely ignored my questions over and over? Refusing to "Come to the Light".

I asked you over and over, whose Laws relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world". You said the Levitical Laws. I posted God's Law from Leviticus 19 concerning how Faithful Gentiles are to be treated. But you completely ignored God and His Word.

I asked you to show me what "Commandment's and Ordinances", plural, meaning there are more than one so you should be able to show me God's Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

But you can't find EVEN ONE LAW in the entire bible to support your adopted religious philosophy that it was GOD's Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

Clare, the reason why you can't find God's Commandments that Jesus nailed to the Cross, is because HE didn't nail God's Commandments to His Cross. HE exposed and nailed the Commandments and Ordinances of men that the Pharisees taught for doctrines, which created a "Wall of Hostility" between Faithful Jews and Faithful Gentiles.


The foundation of your religion that we both were taught since our youth, is that Jesus nailed "God's Commandments and Ordinances" to the cross, because in this world's religions, "Who come in Christ's Name", we were taught that it was GOD's Law that caused the Wall of Hostility Paul speaks of, that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world".

You can read it for yourself, but it will mean being renewed in the spirit of your mind, because right now you believe it was God's Commandments and Ordinances caused the Wall of Hostility. But Paul doesn't teach this at all in Eph. 2:14.

Studyman said:

From Isaiah to Malachi to the Jesus "of the Bible", we are told that the Jews, who God gave His Oracles to, who were in charge of the City of David, and the Temple, rejected His Laws, and taught for doctrines the "Commandments and ordinances of men".
The Jews didn't promote God's Laws I posted from Leviticus because they didn't believe Moses. The Commandments and Ordinances that relegated Faithful Gentiles as "without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world", were not God's Commandments.
Read what is actually written, not just 1/2 of one sentence.

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Non responsive to the question. . .duplicitous. . .no basis for discussion.