The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

The Liturgist said:

Did someone posting in this thread actually claim to be engaging in prophetic utterances?

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Joseph G said:

John 17:25-26
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Matthew 27:27-31
"Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him."

Mock on...

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SabbathBlessings said:

So what about the sins of Rome that are truths? Are we to ignore them and allow for the cover up by the revisions of history?

We need to call sin by its rightful name and not make excuses for it.

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caffeinated.hermit said:

Sure, Catholics have done terrible things. Catholics have done some wonderful things, too. I have never met a Protestant who was put off from Protestantism by the horrible, sometimes organized sins of Protestant individuals or entire denominations / communities.

It's kind of widely known that Christians can be horrible, horrible people. Doesn't make Christ anyone less than God. Anymore than the sins of many Catholics would make the Council of Nicaea, Trent, a longer Bible cannon, or Catholic soteriology any less objectively true or binding.

The Protestant fixation on Rome has always struck me as kind of weird. Like... there are also bishops of Alexandria, Constantinople, Moscow, Damascus, Erbil, Vagharshapat, and Addis Ababa. All of whom have a longer cannon, worship on Sunday, reject Sola Scriptura, reject Sola Fide, and venerate Mary to some degree. So....

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The Liturgist said:

You know, I should have mentioned in the OP that another area of harm comes from false allegations against the Roman Catholic Church and other traditional liturgical churches.

For example, in another thread a user made the … highly dubious suggestion.- to put it mildly, that the Roman Catholic Church historically prohibited members from owning a copy of the Bible in the vernacular, until Vatican II, which my copy of the Challoner Douai Rheims from 1955, and also the existence of the RSV Bible, the Jerusalem Bible, the Knox Bible and countless other translations demonstrates to be completely false, but this untruth is repeated.

THe problem with repeating such obvious lies is the ten commandments. We are accused of breaching the ten commandments because our churches worship on Sunday as well as Saturday (which is nowhere prohibited in Scripture), yet these are ignored making untrue statements about Catholics banning the Bible, or killing, one person alleged something like 250 million people, which is more people killed in WWI and WWII combined and more people than lived in Europe at any given time for most of its history… Indeed, it is more than the combined total of all known genocides.

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Gregory Thompson said:

Was illustrating that the idea of "a Personal Relationship" with Jesus was more of a secular idea that became popularized in the church later on.

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Joseph G said:

Personal Relationship:

The words of Jesus Christ recorded ~ 90-100 AD - by His beloved Apostle John through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-20
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to help you and be with you forever — the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see Me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you."

This Personal Relationship intended for us:

John 17:20
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word..."

His purpose for a Personal Relationship with us:

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Joseph G said:

John 15:7-10
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples."

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

Proof of a Personal Relationship with Him:

John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand."

The end for those who persist in mocking Jesus and His words:

Luke 9:26 (Written by the beloved physician referred to by the Apostle Paul ~ 60 AD):
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He shall come in His own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."

Believing in Jesus is not enough. Believing Jesus and walking in His Truth through His Spirit is everything.

Do you hear His voice and follow Him?

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Joseph G said:

Believing in Jesus is not enough. Believing Jesus and walking in His Truth through His Spirit is everything.

Do you hear His voice and follow Him?

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ralliann said:

Personal, as an US. We each person (indivdual) for the benefit of all (the body) of which as an individual is a part..

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ralliann said:

Do none, and or have none among you ever sin?

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caffeinated.hermit said:

I mean... there are undoubtedly Catholic Christians who do this. I'm not sure anyone would look at the lives of Mother Teresa, Maximilian Kolbe, and others, and try to argue they were not doing this. I've had some truly remarkable experiences with Christians who preached endlessly about a personal walk with Christ and the importance of the Bible turning out to be utter creeps in private.

These were some very, very disorienting experiences, and helped cement for me that discipleship is not just about saying things or even denominational affiliation but about an effort, sometimes a very quiet, hidden effort, to follow and obey Christ in day to day life. And, perhaps, something should be said of all the Lutheran and Anglican book studies which feature works by Saint John of the Cross, Theresa of Avila, or David Betley Hart.

Meaning, we can all learn from one another, and people striving to love Christ and become more like Him can often recognize "Hey, this is wonderful stuff!" even across some very weighty theological and denominational lines.

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Joseph G said:

Personal Relationship:

The words of Jesus Christ recorded ~ 90-100 AD - by His beloved Apostle John through the inspiration of His Holy Spirit:

John 14:16-20
"And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to help you and be with you forever — the Spirit of Truth. The world cannot accept Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you know Him, for He lives with you and will be in you. I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. Before long, the world will not see Me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you."

This Personal Relationship intended for us:

John 17:20
"Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on Me through their word..."

His purpose for a Personal Relationship with us:

John 15:7-10
"If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples."

“As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love."

Proof of a Personal Relationship with Him:

John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me:"

"And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of My hand."

The end for those who persist in mocking Jesus and His words:

Luke 9:26 (Written by the beloved physician referred to by the Apostle Paul ~ 60 AD):
"For whosoever shall be ashamed of Me and of My words, of him shall the Son of man be ashamed, when He shall come in His own glory, and in his Father's, and of the holy angels."

Believing in Jesus is not enough. Believing Jesus and walking in His Truth through His Spirit is everything.

Do you hear His voice and follow Him?

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Gregory Thompson said:

The degree of intimacy expressed in those verses is more than just a "personal relationship"

However, since intimacy is best left between those expressing it, what is this perverted need to drag people out into the streets and beat them over the head with the bible?

When did Jesus do such a thing anyway?

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Joseph G said:

As long as you see sharing the Gospel of Life for the benefit of people beyond ourselves as a perversion, we have little to discuss. You obviously have dedicated little time to studying exactly what Jesus said and did. Praying for you.

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Fervent said:

Not directly, but its a common parlance among protestants that take it upon themselves to attack other believers for not adhering to their understanding of Scripture that they are speaking "prophetically" by engaging in forthtelling. My statement was more about that attitude that is so common among my protestant fellows than a statement about what has been said in this thread or whether or not a particular poster believes themselves to be operating as such.

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chevyontheriver said:

I agree. Not directly. Indirectly though. The ones who go quoting long Bible quotes but we really know what they are trying to say and it isn't pretty and it isn't on target either. They want you to know that the Bible is against you. It's not. It's their interpretation of the Bible, something they learned from whoever propagandized them, of course, that is against you.

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Gregory Thompson said:

So on the topic of the thread I was reminded of a certain passage.
Look, all you who kindle a fire, Who encircle yourselves with sparks: Walk in the light of your fire and in the sparks you have kindled— This you shall have from My hand: You shall lie down in torment. (Isaiah 50:11)

Another passage came to mind from James Chapter 3, about people who are mad, and think this anger and malice makes them right. This malice lights their soul up and they think it's some sort of prophecy like Jeremiah .. but the difference between Jeremiah and this phenomena is that Jeremiah's bones burned from the presence of God, and this is from sin.

So good to take heed of the harm it causes when you think you're right just because you're mad bro.

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Joseph G said:

No idea who you're talking to. If it's me, you are certainly mistaking zeal for anger.

Isaiah 59:17
"For he put on righteousness as a breastplate, and an helmet of salvation upon his head; and he put on the garments of vengeance for clothing, and was clad with zeal as a cloak."

Is there anything more worthy to be passionate about than the Beauty and Passion of Christ?

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