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The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

The Liturgist

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For anyone interested, here is what I am talking about
Global web icon
Association of Hebrew Catholics
https://www.hebrewcatholic.net › fr-antoine-levy


Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P. – Association of Hebrew Catholics

Fr. Antoine Levy is a Dominican priest and a professor of theology who studies Jewish-Christian relations and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group and a speaker at various …


Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P.​

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Fr. Antoine Levy OP is Professor at the University of Eastern Finland (School of Theology) and Director of the Helsinki Studium Catholicum. He was born in Paris in 1962. He was raised in a non-religious Zionist home. He discovered Christian faith while studying Philosophy at the Sorbonne and at the École Normale Supérieure (St. Cloud). After receiving Baptism in the Catholic Church, he entered the Dominican Order in 1990.
Fr. Antoine is the author of a monograph on St.Maximus the Confessor and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has published journal articles in French, English, and Finnish on a variety of subjects including Patristics, Medieval theology, Orthodox spirituality, Russian political philosophy, and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group.
The following talks were given at the Helsinki Consultation on Jewish Continuity in the Body of Christ
Ami Israel as the Founding Principle of a Messianic Ecclesiology, Paris 2011
Torah is the Way, Berlin 2012
Tying and untying shoes: a Church-Jew Messianic approach to Torah fulfillment, Oslo 2013
Church Jews: Self-betrayal or Divine Vocation?, Netherlands 2014
Christophoric Flesh, Moscow 2015
Messianic Judaism – The Ecumenical Factor

His book after years of dialogue in this group

View attachment 367051


The orthodox are also involved with this

I’m not aware of what you mean about the Orthodox being involved by that; of the Eastern Orthodox, large numbers of the members of the Antiochian Orthodox Church (which just suffered a horrible attack on a church in Damascus by Islamic Terrorists in which 24 Christians received a crown of martyrdom and 92 became confessors; this included children) are of Jewish descent, having converted in the first century or at other points early in the history of the church, and this is also the case more broadly among EO churches in the Mediterranean; likewise, among the Oriental Orthodox, the Syriac Orthodox and the ethnically and linguistically related Ancient Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East, both in the Middle East and in India are of Jewish descent, some Mar Thoma Christians in the Syrian church are of pure Jewish descent, being the endogamous survivors of a shipwreck of Jews traveling to Kerala via the one of the two popular merchant trade routes (both of which involved an overwater component - one route was overland from Jerusalem or Antioch via Edessa, Nisibis, Nineveh, Tikrit, Baghdad and sailing from Basra through the Persian Gulf and then to Arabia, whereas the other route, used by Jews in Alexandria, was to sail down the Red Sea, stopping at the island of Socotra off the coast of Yemen, which for this reason became a major center of the Church of the East until the Muslims martyred all of them around the year 1200, before continuing on to Kerala, which was the center of Jewish trade in India and thus became the center of the Christian church in India, albeit which also evangelized Hindus, which is why St. Thomas the Apostle received the crown of martyrdom when an enraged Majarah threw a javelin at him in 53 AD - the site where this happened is the second oldest site of continuous Christian worship after the Cenacle in Jerusalem (the Crusaders thought they had found it abandoned and built a Gothic church on that site, but that site was the tomb of King David - the actual Upper Room is in the much more humble building that house St. Mark’s Monastery, which is one of the three main centers of the Syriac Orthodox community in Jerusalem, the others being their small chapel in the Armenian sector of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Church of St. Mary that shares a wall with the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem (which is used by the Greek Orthodox and the Armenians, and also the Roman Catholics, but at different times, since all Orthodox in Jerusalem use the Julian calendar for important historical reasons, which has the added benefit of reducing overcrowding at key pilgrimage sights, and the Armenian Church is the only ancient church which celebrates the Nativity together with the Baptism of Christ, which was the normal practice until the late 4th century, so they celebrate the Nativity on January 18th rather than January 7th, further reducing overcrowding.

The Ethiopian Orthodox however have the most Christians of Jewish descent of any church, since Ethiopia was a Jewish land until the fourth century when it converted en masse to Christianity (although some Ethiopians continue to practice Judaism even today; most fled to Israel during the anti-Semitic Derg Communist regime, which also martyred the saintly Emperor Haile Selassie, whose efforts led to the conversion of many Rastafarians to Christianity, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church strictly bans marijuana, so it also delivered those who were converted from that vice.

That said we have been expanding quite a bit lately, as have all the liturgical churches, but in the case of Orthodoxy the rate of expansion is astonishing; I joined in 2014 when it happened fairly regularly, but there weren’t dozens of people being baptized or chrismated on every major holiday. This has included many Jews, both in the US and in the Holy Land.

That said, I personally have considered the possibility of developing a liturgical rite for Hebrew converts along the lines of what you are talking about, although in a sense the East Syriac RIte probably would be the best choice, since its lectionary retains the Torah and Haftarah portions from the Talmud, albeit reorganized so as to be associated with those events on the Christian calendar they foretold. Additionally, some East Syriac churches have a Bema in the style of a Jewish synagogue (with the altar taking the place of the cabinet containing Torah Scrolls in the sanctum sanctorum).
 
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The Liturgist

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worshippers of the "pope" and an Institution's traditions do not even blink an eye.

I’m not aware of any Roman Catholics who worship the Pope.

But that also misses the point of this thread - the attacks on Roman Catholicism harm other ancient churches because many of them, like your criticism, is predicated on a false dichotomy wherein everyone who doesn’t share your approach to worship is grouped together with the Roman Catholics, and the important contributions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox to Christianity, for example, in developing the Nicene Creed and the 27-book New Testament Canon, both of which are accepted universally, get ignored.

Some people even attack the Creed, thinking it is some sort of Roman Catholic artifact, for instance, the Jehovah’s Witnesses go so far in their anti-Catholicism as to deny the Holy Trinity, as did many Millerites.
 
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ralliann

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I’m not aware of what you mean about the Orthodox being involved by that; of the Eastern Orthodox, large numbers of the members of the Antiochian Orthodox Church (which just suffered a horrible attack on a church in Damascus by Islamic Terrorists in which 24 Christians received a crown of martyrdom and 92 became confessors; this included children) are of Jewish descent, having converted in the first century or at other points early in the history of the church, and this is also the case more broadly among EO churches in the Mediterranean; likewise, among the Oriental Orthodox, the Syriac Orthodox and the ethnically and linguistically related Ancient Church of the East and the Assyrian Church of the East, both in the Middle East and in India are of Jewish descent, some Mar Thoma Christians in the Syrian church are of pure Jewish descent, being the endogamous survivors of a shipwreck of Jews traveling to Kerala via the one of the two popular merchant trade routes (both of which involved an overwater component - one route was overland from Jerusalem or Antioch via Edessa, Nisibis, Nineveh, Tikrit, Baghdad and sailing from Basra through the Persian Gulf and then to Arabia, whereas the other route, used by Jews in Alexandria, was to sail down the Red Sea, stopping at the island of Socotra off the coast of Yemen, which for this reason became a major center of the Church of the East until the Muslims martyred all of them around the year 1200, before continuing on to Kerala, which was the center of Jewish trade in India and thus became the center of the Christian church in India, albeit which also evangelized Hindus, which is why St. Thomas the Apostle received the crown of martyrdom when an enraged Majarah threw a javelin at him in 53 AD - the site where this happened is the second oldest site of continuous Christian worship after the Cenacle in Jerusalem (the Crusaders thought they had found it abandoned and built a Gothic church on that site, but that site was the tomb of King David - the actual Upper Room is in the much more humble building that house St. Mark’s Monastery, which is one of the three main centers of the Syriac Orthodox community in Jerusalem, the others being their small chapel in the Armenian sector of the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the Church of St. Mary that shares a wall with the Church of the Nativity in Bethlehem (which is used by the Greek Orthodox and the Armenians, and also the Roman Catholics, but at different times, since all Orthodox in Jerusalem use the Julian calendar for important historical reasons, which has the added benefit of reducing overcrowding at key pilgrimage sights, and the Armenian Church is the only ancient church which celebrates the Nativity together with the Baptism of Christ, which was the normal practice until the late 4th century, so they celebrate the Nativity on January 18th rather than January 7th, further reducing overcrowding.

The Ethiopian Orthodox however have the most Christians of Jewish descent of any church, since Ethiopia was a Jewish land until the fourth century when it converted en masse to Christianity (although some Ethiopians continue to practice Judaism even today; most fled to Israel during the anti-Semitic Derg Communist regime, which also martyred the saintly Emperor Haile Selassie, whose efforts led to the conversion of many Rastafarians to Christianity, and the Ethiopian Orthodox Church strictly bans marijuana, so it also delivered those who were converted from that vice.

That said we have been expanding quite a bit lately, as have all the liturgical churches, but in the case of Orthodoxy the rate of expansion is astonishing; I joined in 2014 when it happened fairly regularly, but there weren’t dozens of people being baptized or chrismated on every major holiday. This has included many Jews, both in the US and in the Holy Land.

That said, I personally have considered the possibility of developing a liturgical rite for Hebrew converts along the lines of what you are talking about, although in a sense the East Syriac RIte probably would be the best choice, since its lectionary retains the Torah and Haftarah portions from the Talmud, albeit reorganized so as to be associated with those events on the Christian calendar they foretold. Additionally, some East Syriac churches have a Bema in the style of a Jewish synagogue (with the altar taking the place of the cabinet containing Torah Scrolls in the sanctum sanctorum).
I see room for ecumenism here. Having read levy's book, the tone and comments at points give me this hope.

This is a group Of Hebrew/Jewish Christians. Among the participants are Orthodox. that is what I meant. they began about ten or so years ago.
From the website...Helsinki consultation.

PRESS RELEASE – FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE –

12 SEPTEMBER 2018

First International/Interconfessional Congress of the Jewish Disciples of Jesus

Dallas, Texas - August 27-30, 2018


The first International and Interconfessional Congress of Jewish Disciples of Jesus met at the Kings University, Dallas for four days of discussions. More than forty congregational leaders and theologians from Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Pentecostal traditions resolved to develop a new inter-confessional structure to encourage deeper association and unity between Jewish disciples of Jesus across the range and diversity of their respective confessions.

Attendees came from Brazil, Canada, England, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, Russia, Scotland and the USA. They held plenary sessions and group discussions to explore the formation of a new entity that will encourage Jewish expression of faith in Jesus as a “corporate expression of Am Israel within the body of Christ, a prophetic voice within that body and within the Jewish people.”
 
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The Liturgist

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I see room for ecumenism here. Having read levy's book, the tone and comments at points give me this hope.

This is a group Of Hebrew/Jewish Christians. Among the participants are Orthodox. that is what I meant. they began about ten or so years ago.
From the website...Helsinki consultation.

PRESS RELEASE – FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE –

12 SEPTEMBER 2018

First International/Interconfessional Congress of the Jewish Disciples of Jesus

Dallas, Texas - August 27-30, 2018


The first International and Interconfessional Congress of Jewish Disciples of Jesus met at the Kings University, Dallas for four days of discussions. More than forty congregational leaders and theologians from Messianic, Orthodox, Catholic, Protestant, Evangelical and Pentecostal traditions resolved to develop a new inter-confessional structure to encourage deeper association and unity between Jewish disciples of Jesus across the range and diversity of their respective confessions.

Attendees came from Brazil, Canada, England, France, Germany, Israel, Italy, Poland, Russia, Scotland and the USA. They held plenary sessions and group discussions to explore the formation of a new entity that will encourage Jewish expression of faith in Jesus as a “corporate expression of Am Israel within the body of Christ, a prophetic voice within that body and within the Jewish people.”

We have a cradle Orthodox member of the forum with a great deal of knowledge about Judaism, @Yeshua HaDerekh - he might have heard of that.
 
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Joseph G

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I’m not aware of any Roman Catholics who worship the Pope.

But that also misses the point of this thread - the attacks on Roman Catholicism harm other ancient churches because many of them, like your criticism, is predicated on a false dichotomy wherein everyone who doesn’t share your approach to worship is grouped together with the Roman Catholics, and the important contributions of the Eastern Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox to Christianity, for example, in developing the Nicene Creed and the 27-book New Testament Canon, both of which are accepted universally, get ignored.

Some people even attack the Creed, thinking it is some sort of Roman Catholic artifact, for instance, the Jehovah’s Witnesses go so far in their anti-Catholicism as to deny the Holy Trinity, as did many Millerites.

Hello?

Personal relationship?
 
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Joseph G

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I’m not aware of any Roman Catholics who worship the Pope.

Pretty clear that the majority do. Who of his congregants stood up and held him accountable for speaking heresy against the Lord Jesus? You've just heard it - no reponse?

Who decries his claim to unscriptural infallibilty? Who ducks responsibility for the worst abuses of his Institution? Who insults the only High Priest and Intercessor Jesus by encouraging prayers to mere humans who are asleep and cannot even hear them? Who falls at the feet of statues and kisses icons all of which are representations forbidden by God? Who dresses himself in the finest robes and surrounds himself in obscene opulence extending his hand to be kissed by the great unwashed masses?

And finally, who produces vids and updates on his latest to-do, giving blow-by-blow of his every move and utterance - indistinguishable from the fawning given to rock stars and celebrities of all stripes?

You got some other definition of worship?
 
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chevyontheriver

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For anyone interested, here is what I am talking about
Global web icon
Association of Hebrew Catholics
https://www.hebrewcatholic.net › fr-antoine-levy


Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P. – Association of Hebrew Catholics

Fr. Antoine Levy is a Dominican priest and a professor of theology who studies Jewish-Christian relations and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group and a speaker at various …


Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P.​

Print Friendly, PDF & Email
Fr. Antoine Levy OP is Professor at the University of Eastern Finland (School of Theology) and Director of the Helsinki Studium Catholicum. He was born in Paris in 1962. He was raised in a non-religious Zionist home. He discovered Christian faith while studying Philosophy at the Sorbonne and at the École Normale Supérieure (St. Cloud). After receiving Baptism in the Catholic Church, he entered the Dominican Order in 1990.
Fr. Antoine is the author of a monograph on St.Maximus the Confessor and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has published journal articles in French, English, and Finnish on a variety of subjects including Patristics, Medieval theology, Orthodox spirituality, Russian political philosophy, and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group.
The following talks were given at the Helsinki Consultation on Jewish Continuity in the Body of Christ
Ami Israel as the Founding Principle of a Messianic Ecclesiology, Paris 2011
Torah is the Way, Berlin 2012
Tying and untying shoes: a Church-Jew Messianic approach to Torah fulfillment, Oslo 2013
Church Jews: Self-betrayal or Divine Vocation?, Netherlands 2014
Christophoric Flesh, Moscow 2015
Messianic Judaism – The Ecumenical Factor

His book after years of dialogue in this group

View attachment 367051


The orthodox are also involved with this
In addition to that, Rosalind Moss, AKA Mother Miriam, is a wonderful source that has helped me realize just how fulfilled the religion of Israel was in the Catholic Church. She has connections to the Association of Hebrew Catholics. Search | Catholic Answers
 
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Joseph G

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Rock stars and personal Jesus

John 17:25-26
“Righteous Father, though the world does not know you, I know you, and they know that you have sent me. I have made you known to them, and will continue to make you known in order that the love you have for me may be in them and that I myself may be in them.”

Matthew 27:27-31
"Then the governor’s soldiers took Jesus into the Praetorium and gathered the whole company of soldiers around him. They stripped him and put a scarlet robe on him, and then twisted together a crown of thorns and set it on his head. They put a staff in his right hand. Then they knelt in front of him and mocked him. “Hail, king of the Jews!” they said. They spit on him, and took the staff and struck him on the head again and again. After they had mocked him, they took off the robe and put his own clothes on him. Then they led him away to crucify him."

Mock on...
 
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chevyontheriver

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If an Institution, by its decrees and practices, is operating in clear violation of Holy Scripture, it is certainly directed by God to be subject to open rebuke and admonishment.
Joseph, it looks like you are finally showing your true colors, seeking to 'rebuke' now that your earlier tactic to discredit Catholics and Orthodox and traditional Christians went sideways.
There is a vast difference between giving lip service to God, and obeying Him. Especially in regards to respecting the teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.
Are you admitting to merely giving lip service to God? Considering how much effort you are spending in this post attacking other Christians do you have any room to actually obey God?
Just one example (of many), and certainly central to an expression of genuine Christian faith. It concerns just Who Jesus is - which is the core essential to acknowledge before a lost, deceived world.
If you know anything about the Catholic Church, or about Orthodoxy, you will know that for centuries we prayerfully hammered out just who Jesus was so as to continually present those truths to the lost world.
The last "pope" openly declared that all religions lead one to the same "god". I will be happy to provide the vid if necessary.
Pope Francis did that, and he was challenged for doing so because he was wrong. His was a wrong-headed opinion of a man in serious decline. So you don't need to provide the video unless you really really want to. To just get in that little extra dig against Catholics, of course. Most of us have already seen the video and rejected pope Francis' opinion and instead have held with tradition in keeping with the absolute necessity of Jesus Christ in salvation. Pope Francis is gone and his successor has already reaffirmed what pope Francis couldn't manage to affirm.
And worshippers of the "pope" and an Institution's traditions do not even blink an eye.
Worshippers of the pope? Me, by chance? Do you have other names? Maybe a few hard core leftist modernists, but nobody I know. Many of us have worked hard just to tolerate the late pope Francis. I also don't know anyone who worships the traditions of the Church. Do you have names there as well?
Whereas Jesus says:

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."
Some of us, essentially all of us, agree with this. Might surprise you, considering how you think we all worship the pope.
Who is lying and Who is telling the Truth? Jesus? Or the "pope"?
Who is lying? Jesus? Or the pope? Or maybe you? So eager to attack Catholics that you have to embellish the truth and make up pope worshippers and tradition worshippers?
Should we who love Jesus and are intimate with Him just giggle and go along to get along? Would that be loving? Is that what Jesus did with the scribes and the Pharisees and idol worshippers?
You could endeavor to learn the truth instead of just going along with the anti-Catholic propaganda you grew up with. Maybe engage in some real dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox and traditional Christians. Maybe find out what our concerns are. It's so much easier to be in perpetual attack mode. You 'could give that up and instead love Jesus and love those who love Jesus, instead of just your little tribe.

The original post is something that applies directly to you and that you should read again very carefully and slowly.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Pretty clear that the majority do.
Hello!
Who of his congregants stood up and held him accountable for speaking heresy against the Lord Jesus? You've just heard it - no reponse?
Who decries his claim to unscriptural infallibilty?
Who ducks responsibility for the worst abuses of his Institution?
Who insults the only High Priest and Intercessor Jesus by encouraging prayers to mere humans who are asleep and cannot even hear them?
Who falls at the feet of statues and kisses icons all of which are representations forbidden by God? Who dresses himself in the finest robes and surrounds himself in obscene opulence extending his hand to be kissed by the great unwashed masses?

And finally, who produces vids and updates on his latest to-do, giving blow-by-blow of his every move and utterance - indistinguishable from the fawning given to rock stars and celebrities of all stripes?
You got some other definition of worship?
You are going full bore anti-Catholic here, aren't you? Are you enjoying it? Are you honoring God in doing so, letting out your hate of your Catholic brothers and sisters?
 
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Fervent

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You could endeavor to learn the truth instead of just going along with the anti-Catholic propaganda you grew up with. Maybe engage in some real dialogue with Catholics and Orthodox and traditional Christians. Maybe find out what our concerns are. It's so much easier to be in perpetual attack mode. You 'could give that up and instead love Jesus and love those who love Jesus, instead of just your little tribe.

The original post is something that applies directly to you and that you should read again very carefully and slowly.
I am reminded of "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13 KJV
 
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chevyontheriver

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I am reminded of "But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in." Matthew 23:13 KJV
Notice that the attacks are asymmetric. One side doing the bulk of the attacking. The anti-Catholics sure are not shy in their attacks on Catholics and the Catholic Church. And they don't care about collateral damage to the Orthodox or other traditional Christians. The OP is right on target. And the OP has brought out exactly what it spoke against.
 
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Notice that the attacks are asymmetric. One side doing the bulk of the attacking. The anti-Catholics sure are not shy in their attacks on Catholics and the Catholic Church. And they don't care about collateral damage to the Orthodox or other traditional Christians. The OP is right on target. And the OP has brought out exactly what it spoke against.
Just so we're clear, that wasn't intended as an attack on you or what you have said. It was meant in solidarity with you, as it is his rhetoric that made me think of that verse.
 
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chevyontheriver

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Just so we're clear, that wasn't intended as an attack on you or what you have said. It was meant in solidarity with you, as it is his rhetoric that made me think of that verse.
Oh, I know. No problem. It's others that are pulling out all the stops.
 
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Fervent

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Oh, I know. No problem. It's others that are pulling out all the stops.
I'm aware, and it's one of the major issues with protestantism and the doctrine of sola scriptura in general. Too many prophets, not enough laborers.
 
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chevyontheriver

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I'm aware, and it's one of the major issues with protestantism and the doctrine of sola scriptura in general. Too many prophets, not enough laborers.
A prophet should be very careful to only say 'Thus says the LORD' when the LORD gives the prophet the particular words. Too many take it on themselves to speak for the LORD. They might pick out words from the Bible but if it isn't what the Lord has given them they aren't speaking for God. Makes them false prophets even if they quote Scripture. Satan can quote Scripture as well.
 
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Fervent

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A prophet should be very careful to only say 'Thus says the LORD' when the LORD gives the prophet the particular words. Too many take it on themselves to speak for the LORD. They might pick out words from the Bible but if it isn't what the Lord has given them they aren't speaking for God. Makes them false prophets even if they quote Scripture. Satan can quote Scripture as well.
Agreed. In my experience, calls to prophethood aren't lifelong assignments and involve confronting specific audiences not blanket contankerousness towards other members of the faith who, in all sincerity and honest piety, happen to adhere to a different set of doctrinal and liturgical traditions. And in those limited experiences, God does the speaking.
 
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Joseph G

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Hello!






You are going full bore anti-Catholic here, aren't you? Are you enjoying it? Are you honoring God in doing so, letting out your hate of your Catholic brothers and sisters?
It's the truth spoken in love. Jesus rebuked in order to convict and set captives free - from ritualistic institutions that are so immersed in tradition that they didn't even recognize Jesus face-to-face.

I stand by every word, no matter how you misinterpret the intention. And you haven't refuted a single point.

Anyone who loves Jesus would not have just said "no-no" to the last "pope's" heresy and slapped his hand with a ruler. They would have defrocked him and run him out of town on a rail.

Agreeing with Who Jesus says He is is the core essential of saving faith. And doing the will of the Father, and obeying the Son - which the Institution is in flagrant violation of as detailed.

I encourage all genuine brothers and sisters with a personal relationship with Jesus to flee from her.

That goes for any church espousing heresy.
 
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