The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

The Liturgist · Jul 3, 2025

SabbathBlessings said:
Either God doesn't keep His promises Psa 89:34 Mat 5:18 and God made the Sabbath to be contrary and against man right from Creation Col 2:14 essentially saying God was against man because He made the Sabbath for man Mark 2:27 from Creation as that is when God made the Sabbath thus saith the Lord Exo 20:11 or one is using Paul's texts out of context, even against what Paul himself taught and kept Acts 17:2 Acts 13:42, 44 Acts 18:4 and what Jesus taught and kept. Since I believe God's Word is trustworthy and we are warned the twisting of Paul writings which can be a salvation issue 2 Peter 3:16 , I am going to trust God means what He says that there is no one above to Him to edit His own Testimony Exo 31:18 and was warned would happen Dan 7:25

There is no Scripture that says the Sabbath commandment was abrogated. Using an argument from silence, especially when it goes against the God of the Universe own written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18 Isa 8:20 and what Jesus taught, who is God that became flesh, such as it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath, so Him teaching how to keep the Sabbath and keeping it Himself Luke 4:16 John 15:10 means its still God's law. Only God can remove His blessings Num 23:20 and you can search the Scriptures and will not find one thus saith the Lord or any Scripture that the one commandment God said Remember- that is holy, blessed and sanctified by the God of the Universe that we can now profane and forget. Doing the opposite of a thus saith the Lord, seems like a terrible idea. It never benefited anyone ever in Scripture, I think its very unwise to think it will benefit us now, even if its what the majority are doing. God has never had the majority mentality, its always been a remnant Rev 12:17KJV Rev 14:12 based on faithfulness and His Truth Psa 119:151

The Sabbath was still a commandment a few hours after the Cross Luke 23:56
Jesus indicated His faithful would be keeping the Sabbath some 40 years after the Cross and really until eternity Mat 24:24 Isa 66:23
And kept 60 years after the Cross Rev 1:10 because God only deemed one weekly holy day as His and only sanctified one day Gen 2:1-3 Exo 20:11 and He called it in His own words My holy day, the holy day of the Lord, thus saith the Lord Isa 58:13 so there is no other. Its not the one man assigned God, He deemed for work and labors Exo 20:9 using their own reasoning over God's own Testimony.

This disagreement is not with me. The Sabbath is a commandment of God no different than worshipping other gods or committing murder 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:1-17 and its not just a commandment for the Sabbath, it is for all days. Exo 20:8-11. God only exalted one weekly day in the Scriptures God wrote it God spoke it, it is His own Testimony Exo 31:18. Hopefully one day more people will see this instead of following the crowd. Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13. Thankfully many people are seeing the light on the Sabbath Truth.

God said not keeping the Sabbath is doing evil Neh 13:17 Isa 56:2 and is really profaning God Eze 22:26 because He set aside this sacred time for us starting at Creation when God made everything according to His perfect will. He said keeping the Sabbath is what is doing justice and righteousness Isa 56:1-2 which will not be abolished Isa 51:6 and is the foundation of His Throne Psa 89:14 so I guess the choice is which of these things we want to do. When He comes our decisions are final Rev 22:11 which I believe is soon. We can follow man-made traditions or we can obey God's commandments- His version because He is God. Even the apostles taught we ought to obey God over man. Acts 5:29

This post is not only off-topic, but it represents the very thing this thread was posted to object to. If SDAs wish to criticize the Roman Catholic Church, or if Roman Catholics wish to criticize the SDA church for that matter, they should not do it in this thread, and they should do so in a manner that takes into account the issues posed, such as the harm certain arguments cause the Eastern Orthodox and other liturgical churches.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Well, mainly the issue is whose authority do we want to accept about God - some founders of various Restorationist denominations in the 19th century whose arguments were not internally or historically consistent and who had in common mainly a deep-seated contempt for Roman Catholicism, or those traditional liturgical churches that agree with each other about most things, and are in the process of reunification rather than promoting further division due to schisms over minor issues, which continues to happen in some denominational groupings?

I didn't have a tradition, and protestant churches didn't really work out.

I tend to look at church history using a fulfillment of scripture paradigm. There is a longer explanation but the below is how it relates to the state of the church.

Protestants are like the 10 tribes that separated from Benjamin and Judah.

Roman Catholicism is Judah.

Orthodox is Benjamin.

In that sense, I'm not sure if the church can become one, but it doesn't hurt to try.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 3, 2025

Fervent said:
Well, what else are they going to do when they had the authoritative words of Ellen G. White to bolster their cause and tell them what the Bible really means?

Much like the Catholic church.

People claim this about SDA's yet every SDA who posts here only posts from the Bible and believes what God said without editing Him. Fun fact, most Adventists who become Adventists do so from the Bible alone and never read a book from EGW. I know that was also my case, I never read an EGW book until years after becoming an SDA.

At least EGW tells us to test everything from the Bible and puts authority and light back on God's Word.

SabbathBlessings · Jul 3, 2025

Gregory Thompson said:
Protestants are like the 10 tribes that separated from Benjamin and Judah.

Or the daughters indicated in Revelation

SabbathBlessings · Jul 3, 2025

The Liturgist said:
This post is not only off-topic, but it represents the very thing this thread was posted to object to. If SDAs wish to criticize the Roman Catholic Church, or if Roman Catholics wish to criticize the SDA church for that matter, they should not do it in this thread, and they should do so in a manner that takes into account the issues posed, such as the harm certain arguments cause the Eastern Orthodox and other liturgical churches.

Thanks, will do.

Joseph G · Jul 3, 2025

The Liturgist said:
Yes, and that is the point of this thread - rather than members of denomination A relentlessly criticizing denomination B, we should be doing that. I would rather be sharing the beauty of the traditional liturgies with members of the forum than defending Roman Catholics from false accusations, or defending Adventists and others from equally false accusations.

Liturgies?

I'm talking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You know, what He promised us upon our confession of faith.

So again I would ask:

Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

biblegateway.com

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

"There are three aspects to Christian liturgy: the celebration of divine worship, the proclamation of the Gospel, and active charity" (CCC, §1070).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

Joseph G · Jul 3, 2025

Gregory Thompson said:
"There are three aspects to Christian liturgy: the celebration of divine worship, the proclamation of the Gospel, and active charity" (CCC, §1070).

Catechism of the Catholic Church - IntraText

And again...

Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

biblegateway.com

chevyontheriver · Jul 3, 2025

Fervent said:
Well, what else are they going to do when they had the authoritative words of Ellen G. White to bolster their cause and tell them what the Bible really means?

Ellen G White IS inspired, after all. According to the SDA. More infallible than any pope ever claimed to be.

chevyontheriver · Jul 3, 2025

Joseph G said:
And again...

Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

It's far more fun to attack the Catholic Church than to do any of that. Which was kind of like the point of the initial post. And low and behold a bunch of attacking the Catholic Church ensued. Which backhandedly attacks the Orthodox and even most Protestants in the process. It's a whole cottage industry. In the mean time the more traditional Christians keep praying and hearing the Bible read and walking the walk quietly and wishing the attackers would get over it. Knowing they can't and won't.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

Joseph G said:
And again...

Hey, does anybody want to talk about their personal walk with Jesus? The latest bit of wisdom about God as revealed by His indwelling Holy Spirit? The incredible interconnectedness of canonical Scripture such as prophecies fulfilled? Praise reports? Prayer requests? The will of the Father and the commands of the Son?

Jesus?

biblegateway.com

I wouldn't mind, but that is not the topic of the thread. That sounds like a good OP for deeper fellowship.

The Liturgist · Jul 3, 2025

Joseph G said:
I'm talking about a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. You know, what He promised us upon our confession of faith.

Me too. That is what liturgical worship provides, a means to encounter our Lord, God and Savior Jesus Christ in person, even in His very flesh and blood, according to His own words in Matthew 18:20, 1 Corinthians 11:23-26 (and synoptic equivalents, also Luke 24:35 and John 6 (entire) and Matthew 28:19 and other relevant parts of 1 Corinthians 11 in the case of the Baptismal liturgy.

Liturgical worship is the means of walking with Christ, and is also where we make our confession of faith, when we recite the Symbol of Faith, the Nicene Creed, and also in the Western churches the Apostles’ Creed and the Athanasian Creed (which are recognized as valid in the Eastern church, sans the filioque in the case of the Athanasian Creed, which is included in our Psalters, but not used liturgically).

The idea that non-liturgical churches have a monopoly on walking with Christ is what I object to.

chevyontheriver said:
It's far more fun to attack the Catholic Church than to do any of that. Which was kind of like the point of the initial post. And low and behold a bunch of attacking the Catholic Church ensued. Which backhandedly attacks the Orthodox and even most Protestants in the process. It's a whole cottage industry. In the mean time the more traditional Christians keep praying and hearing the Bible read and walking the walk quietly and wishing the attackers would get over it. Knowing they can't and won't.

There are aliturgical, low church Christians who never give us any trouble; most of them in fact. One of my favorite members of the forum is an elderly American Baptist minister @Der Alte who is very knowledgeable about the Greek text in Scriptures and does a splendid job debunking Universalists in CCT, and an elderly British baptist minister whose name I can’t recall, who joined fairly recently, who are quite nice.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

chevyontheriver said:
It's far more fun to attack the Catholic Church than to do any of that.

I've had some heated debates over the years about the Mary issue and noticed how I react when it comes up resembles the less favorable side of James chapter 3.

So I just put it in the category of things I do not understand.

I have stopped debating this issue.

Fun based on malice really burns the soul, not fun at all I'd say.

The Liturgist · Jul 3, 2025

Gregory Thompson said:
I wouldn't mind, but that is not the topic of the thread. That sounds like a good OP for deeper fellowship.

In a sense it is, because if people would cease engaging in endless repetitive polemics against the Roman Catholic Church or other denominations and focus on the non-polemical exchange of information and fellowship we would all be happier. This doesn’t mean not criticizing the denominations in a friendly and constructive way; I promised a Roman Catholic friend @Xeno.of.athens to post a thread in traditional Theology in which I will criticize the 1969 Missal and other post Vatican II liturgical developments (but not all of them, for example, most Eastern Catholic churches saw liturgical improvements after Vatican II, with the notable exception of the Maronites, who were far more adversely affected than the Roman Rite by post-conciliar liturgical reforms, but the people responsible for those reforms were different from the people doing other things.

ralliann · Jul 3, 2025

Gregory Thompson said:
I've had some heated debates over the years about the Mary issue and noticed how I react when it comes up resembles the less favorable side of James chapter 3.

So I just put it in the category of things I do not understand.

I have stopped debating this issue.

Fun based on malice really burns the soul, not fun at all I'd say.

Ah, I can relate to this.
I have an issue with a few things like this as well. I have my own views about it, where I do look for the future possibility to approach it in ecumenical dialogue. Personally, I have had had hope for these things in Rome's interest and approach with Messianic Jew's, Hebrew Catholics. Hebrew protestants etc.
Until such time all I can do is pray about it and ask for those that do these things to pray for me...What else to do with my conscience concerning these things? "help mine unbelief"

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

The Liturgist said:
In a sense it is, because if people would cease engaging in endless repetitive polemics against the Roman Catholic Church

Yeah, when I read the post I looked up "what is liturgy" and found a number of answers that seemed to say, "you two seem to be talking about the same thing."

The catechism quote seemed more helpful since it was authoritative and linked to the vatican.

So I agree that it is related in the sense that a lot of arguments start due to a lack of recognition of similarities.

ralliann · Jul 3, 2025

ralliann said:
Ah, I can relate to this.
I have an issue with a few things like this as well. I have my own views about it, where I do look for the future possibility to approach it in ecumenical dialogue. Personally, I have had had hope for these things in Rome's interest and approach with Messianic Jew's, Hebrew Catholics. Hebrew protestants etc.
Until such time all I can do is pray about it and ask for those that do these things to pray for me...What else to do with my conscience concerning these things? "help mine unbelief"

For anyone interested, here is what I am talking about

Association of Hebrew Catholics
https://www.hebrewcatholic.net › fr-antoine-levy

Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P. – Association of Hebrew Catholics

Fr. Antoine Levy is a Dominican priest and a professor of theology who studies Jewish-Christian relations and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group and a speaker at various …

Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P.

Fr. Antoine Levy OP is Professor at the University of Eastern Finland (School of Theology) and Director of the Helsinki Studium Catholicum. He was born in Paris in 1962. He was raised in a non-religious Zionist home. He discovered Christian faith while studying Philosophy at the Sorbonne and at the École Normale Supérieure (St. Cloud). After receiving Baptism in the Catholic Church, he entered the Dominican Order in 1990.
Fr. Antoine is the author of a monograph on St.Maximus the Confessor and St. Thomas Aquinas, and has published journal articles in French, English, and Finnish on a variety of subjects including Patristics, Medieval theology, Orthodox spirituality, Russian political philosophy, and Messianic Judaism. He is also a member of the Roman Catholic-Messianic Jewish Dialogue Group.
The following talks were given at the Helsinki Consultation on Jewish Continuity in the Body of Christ
Ami Israel as the Founding Principle of a Messianic Ecclesiology, Paris 2011
Torah is the Way, Berlin 2012
Tying and untying shoes: a Church-Jew Messianic approach to Torah fulfillment, Oslo 2013
Church Jews: Self-betrayal or Divine Vocation?, Netherlands 2014
Christophoric Flesh, Moscow 2015
Messianic Judaism – The Ecumenical Factor

His book after years of dialogue in this group

The orthodox are also involved with this

Joseph G · Jul 3, 2025

chevyontheriver said:
It's far more fun to attack the Catholic Church than to do any of that. Which was kind of like the point of the initial post. And low and behold a bunch of attacking the Catholic Church ensued. Which backhandedly attacks the Orthodox and even most Protestants in the process. It's a whole cottage industry. In the mean time the more traditional Christians keep praying and hearing the Bible read and walking the walk quietly and wishing the attackers would get over it. Knowing they can't and won't.

If an Institution, by its decrees and practices, is operating in clear violation of Holy Scripture, it is certainly directed by God to be subject to open rebuke and admonishment.

There is a vast difference between giving lip service to God, and obeying Him. Especially in regards to respecting the teachings of His Son, Jesus Christ.

Just one example (of many), and certainly central to an expression of genuine Christian faith. It concerns just Who Jesus is - which is the core essential to acknowledge before a lost, deceived world.

The last "pope" openly declared that all religions lead one to the same "god". I will be happy to provide the vid if necessary.

And worshippers of the "pope" and an Institution's traditions do not even blink an eye.

Whereas Jesus says:

John 14:6
"Jesus answered, “I am the Way and the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me."

Who is lying and Who is telling the Truth? Jesus? Or the "pope"?

Should we who love Jesus and are intimate with Him just giggle and go along to get along? Would that be loving? Is that what Jesus did with the scribes and the Pharisees and idol worshippers?

BNR32FAN · Jul 3, 2025

Fervent said:
Well, what else are they going to do when they had the authoritative words of Ellen G. White to bolster their cause and tell them what the Bible really means?

Well they could examine some of the other claims she made like how eating meat and cakes defiles a person and compare them to scripture. If she’s supposed to be a prophetess she shouldn’t be making statements that are contradictory to scripture. In Leviticus 24 the Israelites were commanded by God to bake 12 cakes every Sabbath day and Aaron and the Levites were commanded to eat them. And everybody knows that God told the Israelites which meat would defile them and which meat would not and even commanded every single one of the Israelites to eat an entire goat or lamb every Passover and on top of all that Jesus ate fish with His apostles after His resurrection. It’s not as if it’s difficult to spot the errors in her theology, 98% of Christians have managed to recognize them.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 3, 2025

The popes are the fulfillment of the kings in the bible.

Once the sequence reaches the end .. who knows what will happen?

what does freedom from a script even look like?

The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

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Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P. – Association of Hebrew Catholics​

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Fr. Antoine Levy, O.P. – Association of Hebrew Catholics

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