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The Harm Caused by Excessive Criticism of the Roman Catholic Church and Other Denominations

SabbathBlessings

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The scriptures is not a person, it cannot take the blame. This is like the samurais of bushido saying: I didn't kill him, my sword did.

Might work in bushido, but it doesnt work that way with God.
You replied to me as if I said the Word of God takes blame, but where did I say this?

The Scripture do condemn as it is God's Word, we should be convicted by God's word and make changes accordingly.

Heb 4:12 For the word of God is living and powerful, and sharper than any two-edged sword, piercing even to the division of soul and spirit, and of joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

Found right in the Word of God Exo 20:1-17 James 2:11-12 1 John 3:4

Is there a condemnation for sin? The Bible tells us there is

Heb 10:26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
Heb 10:28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
Heb 10:29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
Heb 10:30 For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY," says the Lord. And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE."

The Bible also gives us the solution as well. Its up to us what we do with His Word and how it molds our life.

The way you assess others, is the way God will in turn also assess you.
Well this would apply to you as well, but I do not beleive its the meaning behind do not judge. God tells us to judge righteously, but condemning people that they are not saved, its not our place. We all have to stand before Jesus one day soon 2 Cor 5:10. But Jesus called out sin for what it is and we should not try to make excuses for it either.
 
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seeking.IAM

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This thread reminds me of the old joke about a recently departed person arriving in heaven only to be advised to tip-toe quietly past certain rooms in heaven because those inside believe those of their expression of Christianity are the only ones there.

Let us hope we are more ecumenical and charitable in heaven than we are on earth.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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You replied to me as if I said the Word of God takes blame, but where did I say this?
You said: "The Scriptures do the condemning, we don't need to."

When someone cuts words out of a magazine to form a collage, what is created is still their opinion.

Whether you use your own words or scripture passages as a mask, you're still doing the judging.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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You said: "The Scriptures do the condemning, we don't need to."

When someone cuts words out of a magazine to form a collage, what is created is still their opinion.

Whether you use your own words or scripture passages as a mask, you're still doing the judging.
Weird, you are judging my intent (which only God knows) of why I post Scripture while preaching we shouldn’t judge. Can you find the Scripture where sharing Scripture is judging? I have not ran across it in my studies.

I can make a collage of Scripture and its still God’s Word. If I start adding my words to the Scripture than its not, so if I posted something that was not supported by the Scriptures I posted, please feel free to show me my error through Scripture. So far it’s been just vague accusations and making statements claiming I made them when I didn’t.

Can you please find one quote from me, where I judged anyone personally? If I did, I will own up to it and apologize , but if you can’t , according to Scripture, false testimony is something to take seriously. But I guess if we won’t allow His Word to convict us, it is what it is.

Guess all will get sorted out soon enough
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Weird, you are judging my intent (which only God knows) of why I post Scripture and preaching we shouldn’t judge.
I know you are but what am I theology didn't work in the first judgment in Genesis 3, and it won't work in the Judgment of revelation.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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I know you are but what am I theology didn't work in the first judgment in Genesis 3, and it won't work in the Judgment of revelation.
Sorry I have no idea what you are referring to, can you please clarify your position? And if you can post Scripture references, so we can all examine as well. Thanks
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Sorry I have no idea what you are referring to, can you please clarify your position? And if you can post Scripture references, so we can all examine as well. Thanks
My position was that your post attempted to flank my post with a red herring. I responded to the logical premise of the post. The discussion ended some posts ago.

Since neither person is willing to discuss the subject based on the other's premise, the discussion is already over.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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My position was that your post attempted to flank my post with a red herring. I responded to the logical premise of the post. The discussion ended some posts ago.

Since neither person is willing to discuss the subject based on the other's premise, the discussion is already over.
I think you need to re-read the past posts. if you are going to accuse someone of something the honest thing to do is show the post where they did so. You also claimed I said something which I never did. You didn't even acknowledge this when I pointed it out to you.
 
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Lost4words

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The Catholic church is not to blame for any heinous crimes. No. It is the 'sinners' within the church that one should blame.

I am a Catholic. I dont blame the church at all. Its the people within that went astray one has to blame.

The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It has stood the test of time. It has gone through some MIGHTY storms. It has survived. How?

Because Our Lord Jesus Christ is at the helm. The Holy Spirit dwells in the church. The Father watches over it..
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I think you need to re-read the past posts.
That never works. It has already been established that we don't view reality or God the same way. Further explanation would just be exhausting.
 
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SabbathBlessings

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That never works. It has already been established that we don't view reality or God the same way. Further explanation would just be exhausting.
I guess it seems okay for you to make accusations, but not show evidence or the quote of where one did what they are being accused of nor even acknowledge when they misquote someone.

Well, I tried. I still wish you well. Take care.
 
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chevyontheriver

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The Catholic church is not blame for any heinous crimes. No. It is the 'sinners' within the church that one should blame.
I think if you look at this through the lens of a 'Seventh Day' person The Catholic Church, the Orthodox, and almost all Protestant groups, and all the people within all of those groups ARE INDEED guilty of the heinous crime of worshipping on the wrong day of the week. We are all continuously sinning and to blame, not as a once in the past sin but every week we don't go to church on Saturday. But further we sin continually by belonging to either a Baptist church or Lutheran church or Orthodox church or Catholic Church. And those groups continue in sin as long as they don't convert to worshiping on Saturday. So you see we really are, in their eyes, miserable sinners attending ongoing sinful congregations. Even if only because we don't show up to church on Saturday. We can all be looked down on individually and corporately.
I am a Catholic. I don't blame the church at all. Its the people within that went astray one has to blame.
But of course. But then that's just us I guess. And most people who don't rush to blame the institution for the many and rather unsurprising sins of the members.
The gates of hell will not prevail against the church. It has stood the test of time. It has gone through some MIGHTY storms. It has survived. How?
For these Sabbatarians the gates of hell DID prevail up until the 19th century, before the eternal verities of Saturday only worship were supposedly rediscovered. And fresh and new and so clearly Biblical. To them anyhow. Which is why they feel the need to point out our errors. And have nothing to do with us.
 
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Fervent

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This thread reminds me of the old joke about a recently departed person arriving in heaven only to be advised to tip-toe quietly past certain rooms in heaven because those inside believe those of their expression of Christianity are the only ones there.

Let us hope we are more ecumenical and charitable in heaven than we are on earth.
I like to think we'll all be so shocked by just how far off the mark we were to worry about who else managed to squeek by.
 
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ralliann

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The church is being discussed on the internet and beyond this realm. We have no jurisdiction on opinions and religion is scrutinized like everything else. If you don’t like those conversations they’re easy to avoid. But you’re not going to stop them and offense is a choice. Our walk with the Lord isn’t reliant on being liked or supported.

~bella
That is all you got out of that post?
 
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Fervent

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For these Sabbatarians the gates of hell DID prevail up until the 19th century, before the eternal verities of Saturday only worship were supposedly rediscovered. And fresh and new and so clearly Biblical. To them anyhow. Which is why they feel the need to point out our errors. And have nothing to do with us.
Well, what else are they going to do when they had the authoritative words of Ellen G. White to bolster their cause and tell them what the Bible really means?
 
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ralliann

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Anyone who spends an inordinate amount of time attacking a particular denomination, particularly the Roman Catholic Church, is harming themselves and others.

With regards to themselves, they are distracting themselves from what the Greek fathers called “nepsis”, that is to say, watchfulness, over their own sins, by focusing on the alleged or historical sins of others which are in many cases literally ancient history. The time spent attacking Rome endlessly is better spent in repentence.

With regards to others, much of what they say has the effect of also causing great offense to other traditional liturgical Protestants, such as the Lutherans and High Church Anglicans, who are among the oldest Protestant denominations, and Moravians, who are the oldest Protestant denomination to preserve their own distinctive theological and liturgical identity (the Waldensians are older, but converted to Calvinism, and later embraced a hybrid Methodist doctrine in becoming the main Protestant denomination in Italy; their original beliefs were eccentric, not quite in line with later Protestantism, and from what we know about them, were quite possibly erroneous after the fashion of the Donatists). These liturgical Protestants share many beliefs with the Roman Catholic Church and many worship practices; many of them call their main Eucharistic service “the Mass” for example.

Furthermore, harm is caused to Eastern Christians - the Eastern Orthodox, Oriental Orthodox, and the Assyrian Church of the East and Ancient Church of the East. These churches were at one time in communion with Rome, but were historically independent, and later were separated in schisms, many of which are close to healing (for example, Roman Catholics and members of the Assyrian Church of the East can receive the Eucharist in all of each others parishes, and this is also true for some Oriental Orthodox parishes, and would be the case for the Eastern Orthodox, except most bishops are not prepared to allow it, but some probably do in certain parts of the world; indeed some of the EO churches with the most formidable reputations for being conservative are actually among the most liturgically relaxed.

The problem is that a great many anti-Catholic polemics were written by people unaware of the Eastern churches, or the history of the early church; for example, they were unaware that most of those present at the Council of Nicaea were Greek, with a Roman Emperor and two Roman legates among the 318 bishops who signed the Nicene Creed. There were also probably some Syriac Fathers, who did attend at some ecumenical synods, and perhaps even an Armenian, Ethiopian or Georgian (Ethiopia and Georgia were either the fourth or fifth countries to convert entirely to Christianity, or the fifth and sixth to embrace it officially, counting Rome; I forget the order in which they converted, but the basic order was the City State of Edessa in 301 AD, followed by the Kingdom of Armenia in 306 AD, the Roman Empire in 314 AD with the conversion of St. Constantine, the Edict of Milan and the defeat of the pagan co-emperor Licinius, who was a known persecutor of Christians (interestingly, St. Constantine’s mother St. Helena had been Christian for some time); followed by Georgia and Ethiopia.

Some people falsely claim that Constantine imposed all of these doctrine on the churches, which is hugely offensive to Eastern Christians who were persecuted by Arian Emperors like Constantius, and who had been involved in the Council of Nicaea and the later Ecumenical Synods, all of which were held in the East, in Constantinople or elsewhere in Asia Minor.

Lastly, the attacks against the Roman Church are scurrilous in many cases, ignoring the extremely important humanitarian work performed by the RCC, which is the largest charitable organization on Earth, with operations that as an Orthodox I greatly admire; due to communism nearly all Orthodox hospitals and universities in Eastern Europe were seized, leaving only some facilities in the Middle East (in particular, orphanages in Egypt, which are necessary because the Muslims cruelly oppose their religion’s objection to adoption on all orphaned children in Egypt, not just Muslims but the Christians who comprise over 10% of the population, including Coptic Catholics as well as Coptic Orthodox and Alexandrian Greek Orthodox.

The Roman Catholic Church was also indispensible in procuring the repeal of Roe v. Wade in the United States and has stood with other traditional Christian churches in opposing abortion, euthanasia and other contemporary evils.

Thus perhaps we should consider the beam in our own eye before complaining about the splinter in the eye of Roman Catholics, and cease constant and unwarranted criticism of their denomination.
I am not Catholic but do I think this, in my long time in Protestantism. The historical churches of which you mention truly sought to reform, with a strong desire to maintain unity. A responsibility to it. Staying close to their origins, they examined their own thoughts, and struggled among each other. Today not as much desire goes into a mind of reform . They just walk away in complain about the other and move on. The historic Church took division as a serious matter, to be avoided with serious internal self examination..Looking inward first. Today, a sense of the ease of walking away in judgement the other is wrong and I am right. It just seems normal for some. Just create your own group that is right, and see the other as wrong. Ecumenism is IMO, is a better thing. To find unity is the best.
That is what I admire about the historic liturgical churches. I suppose, we could even be thankful for...Unity is an important aspect.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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"let God be true, but every man a liar" Some saying, in some old book, that doesn't end up applying to all humans, just all except the person speaking. If this were a card game, I'd win ....

However, we're all wrong, and God is right .. when there are centuries and millennia of traditions at stake, who can accept this saying?
 
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The Liturgist

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The Liturgist

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"let God be true, but every man a liar" Some saying, in some old book, that doesn't end up applying to all humans, just all except the person speaking. If this were a card game, I'd win ....

However, we're all wrong, and God is right .. when there are centuries and millennia of traditions at stake, who can accept this saying?

Well, mainly the issue is whose authority do we want to accept about God - some founders of various Restorationist denominations in the 19th century whose arguments were not internally or historically consistent and who had in common mainly a deep-seated contempt for Roman Catholicism, or those traditional liturgical churches that agree with each other about most things, and are in the process of reunification rather than promoting further division due to schisms over minor issues, which continues to happen in some denominational groupings?
 
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The Liturgist

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This thread reminds me of the old joke about a recently departed person arriving in heaven only to be advised to tip-toe quietly past certain rooms in heaven because those inside believe those of their expression of Christianity are the only ones there.

Which is ironic, because the point of this thread was to discourage that kind of thing.
 
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