• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

Cessationism isn't biblical

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,221
1,909
60
✟218,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Agreed. Without question. Yet Christ did not reject the woman at the well, nor the centurion that sent his servant, and even commended the centurion stating He had not found such faith in Israel and immediately the servant was healed.

If you are, obviously, referring to the gentiles, I would thoroughly disagree and with a strong emphasis on the following:

Matthew 10:40
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

In addition to this He instructed specifically:

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.



God the Son sent Paul and Paul was sent to the gentiles.

Acts 22:21
Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’ ”


The mission was specific to what Jesus stated it was yes, but God's intent was that through His people the world would know His Son, meaning the purpose of being sent to Israel was to give the oracles of God and salvation to those God called first. If the intent was to literally only send Christ to the lost sheep of Israel and it never transfer into the gentiles, salvation would fall under this mission statement, but we know that isn't the case and the Lord Jesus died for all of us Jew or Gentile.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Isaiah 54:3
For you shall expand to the right and to the left, And your descendants will inherit the nations, And make the desolate cities inhabited.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

We can legalize anything we like in our own mind, but God is after the heart. His love reaches beyond Israel as He depicts clearly in the book of Jonah. The Lord heals all who come to Him and while He made Israel for a people and for them to be His chosen nation, He loves all of His children no less. For example:

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

And in action while He was on Earth on His mission:

Matthew 15:21-28
21Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The good Lord Jesus Christ was not rejecting this woman for being a gentile, He was using the general rule of thumb of His mission to test her faith. I agree He went to the Jewish people in Israel, and He did not travel outside of the country to preach. But His heart is for the world, and He is a good Father who loves all His children and ultimately it was His own plan to save all that would believe on Him and call on His name.

John 16:27
for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

Healing is for all who will come to Christ and believe.

Just so you understand brother, he will never be satisfied with your answer.
 
Upvote 0

Zceptre

Active Member
Oct 28, 2024
286
199
39
NC
Visit site
✟18,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Alright then, your doctrine is very similar to those from Word of Faith churches.
If you say so. I follow Christ.

If they are believing the Scriptures I just posted, I'd say they are believing the Bible.

I think that is extra clear water in that list of verses.
 
Upvote 0

Zceptre

Active Member
Oct 28, 2024
286
199
39
NC
Visit site
✟18,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Just so you understand brother, he will never be satisfied with your answer.
lol, and I'm not satisfied without a fight. He is fine. Maybe he needs perspective. I'm here for that. :)
You are funny to say this when I replied to him 'alright then'.
Don't mind him. He is playful and harmless. Don't tell him his poking at you worked next time. lol....
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
If you say so. I follow Christ.

If they are believing the Scriptures I just posted, I'd say they are believing the Bible.

I think that is extra clear water in that list of verses.

Christ was not speaking to you during his first coming (Matthew 15:24), so you cannot be following him by following his instructions to Israel then. I know that because you are not following his instructions in Luke 12:33.

You are supposed to follow Paul, as he follows Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), and he instructs us not to follow Christ in the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16, 2 Timothy 2:15), which was during his first coming (Romans 9:5).
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Don't mind him. He is playful and harmless. Don't tell him his poking at you worked next time. lol....

If you have engaged him in the past, you would understand that "playful and harmless" are not words that would apply to him.
 
Upvote 0

Zceptre

Active Member
Oct 28, 2024
286
199
39
NC
Visit site
✟18,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
Christ was not speaking to you during his first coming (Matthew 15:24).
If you say so. Thanks for the opinion.

You are supposed to follow Paul, as he follows Christ (1 Corinthians 11:1), and he instructs us not to follow Christ in the flesh (2 Corinthians 5:16), which was during his first coming (Romans 9:5).
1 Corinthians and 2 Corinthians are letters to specific Churches that met Paul in person and who had the privilege of having an example to follow in person. They did not have a Bible with God's Word in all its grand fullness, but rather only letters from Paul and visits... Hence...
"Imitate me, just as I also imitate Christ."


Of course, you are turning these particular Scriptures into legal clauses, and following the pattern of the Pharisees in the New Testament Gospels. This is the kind of mentality that told Christ not to heal on the Sabbath, as they had a Scripture to back up their claim it was a sin, albeit a faulty claim and a mistaken legalistic mentality.

When this is the reality of the heart of Christ Jesus concerning all God's children young and old:

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”

If you have engaged him in the past, you would understand that "playful and harmless" are not words that would apply to him.
Well time tells all things. So far, he hasn't been too bad of an apple in my approximation. Maybe he will go rogue, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. You still gave him a heads up that the poking at you affected you, if he is poking at you of course. lol

Forgive. Maybe he needs a Christ-like example to say "Father forgive him, he doesn't know what he is doing."

I'll beat him up a little bit when I catch him stepping over the "oh no you didn't" tape. :thumbsup:
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You still gave him a heads up that the poking at you affected you, if he is poking at you of course. lol

If it really affected me, I would have used words other than "funny". :p
 
  • Haha
Reactions: Zceptre
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
41,934
22,571
US
✟1,713,458.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Yes I can certainly accept that he probably did not.

But from John 20:30 reminded us, there were so many other signs, including healing, that Jesus did that was not written down.


Would you agree with me, however, that his purpose and mission in doing those healings in his first coming is
  • Only to Israel (Matthew 10:5-8, Matthew 15:24)
  • to proclaim to them he was indeed the Christ that was prophesied to them? (Luke 7:19-22).
If not, could you share your understanding on what that purpose and mission is?
You're pursuing a tangent from the point of the thread.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You're pursuing a tangent from the point of the thread.

You said he healed according to his purpose and mission, so I am asking you to clarify what you think that was during his first coming.

If he is no longer doing that purpose and mission today, then by your reasoning, healing won't happen. That is what this thread is about.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,221
1,909
60
✟218,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
Well time tells all things. So far, he hasn't been too bad of an apple in my approximation. Maybe he will go rogue, but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt. You still gave him a heads up that the poking at you affected you, if he is poking at you of course. lol

Forgive. Maybe he needs a Christ-like example to say "Father forgive him, he doesn't know what he is doing."

I'll beat him up a little bit when I catch him stepping over the "oh no you didn't" tape. :thumbsup:

-- Come back to reality.

He has an unhealthy obsession with Israel. His personal beliefs are a true outlier, he's the only one on here and elsewhere that I've found that believes the way he does.
 
Upvote 0

Gregory Thompson

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.
Site Supporter
Dec 20, 2009
30,080
8,470
Canada
✟874,982.00
Country
Canada
Faith
Christian Seeker
Marital Status
Married
biblically speaking should there be people that don't operating in the gifts?
Jesus taught about people who didn't use their gifts. They get taken from them and given to people who will use them. This happens all the time.
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
-- Come back to reality.

He has an unhealthy obsession with Israel. His personal beliefs are a true outlier, he's the only one on here and elsewhere that I've found that believes the way he does.

Exodus to the first half of acts was about Israel so I guess God is equally obsessed (Romans 9:1-5)
 
Upvote 0

ARBITER01

Legend
Aug 12, 2007
14,221
1,909
60
✟218,254.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Republican
biblically speaking should there be people that don't operating in the gifts?

Good question.

Should there be? Not really, but not everyone has an ambition to be Christ-like.
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
41,934
22,571
US
✟1,713,458.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You said he healed according to his purpose and mission, so I am asking you to clarify what you think that was during his first coming.

If he is no longer doing that purpose and mission today, then by your reasoning, healing won't happen. That is what this thread is about.
His healing then was to identify Himself as the Messiah.

Today: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."
 
Upvote 0

Zceptre

Active Member
Oct 28, 2024
286
199
39
NC
Visit site
✟18,880.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Celibate
-- Come back to reality.

He has an unhealthy obsession with Israel. His personal beliefs are a true outlier, he's the only one on here and elsewhere that I've found that believes the way he does.
Yes, it seems the legalism is a bit intense. The Scriptures are clear though, and the heart of stone will be replaced with a heart of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26), once the legalism points its finger back at the one who is holding on to it too tightly.

If he is genuine in his search to follow Christ, he will find his way out of it, being that is not what we are called to, and the mentality prevalent in Israel in Lord Jesus' day.

But we have died, and our life is hidden in Christ, no longer bound to the law. (Colossians 3:3)

Romans 7:1-6
1Do you not know, brothers (for I am speaking to those who know the law), that the law has authority over a man only as long as he lives? 2For instance, a married woman is bound by law to her husband as long as he lives. But if her husband dies, she is released from the law of marriage. 3So then, if she is joined to another man while her husband is still alive, she is called an adulteress; but if her husband dies, she is free from that law and is not an adulteress, even if she marries another man.

4Therefore, my brothers, you also died to the law through the body of Christ, that you might belong to another, to Him who was raised from the dead, in order that we might bear fruit to God. 5For when we lived according to the flesh, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies, bearing fruit for death. 6But now, having died to what bound us, we have been released from the law, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit, and not in the old way of the written code.

Legally, Christ destroyed the law owning you, so that He could directly own you. (Colossians 2:14) God prophesied/predicted Him doing this through the Lord Jesus in the Old Testament, and stated that we would follow His ways beyond needing written laws, for His Spirit inside us would lead us directly. (Ezekiel 26:27)

We are not under the law that brings death (Romans 7:9 - Romans 7:10 - Romans 7:11), but under the law of grace and mercy (Romans 6:14 - John 8:11 - Matthew 9:13 - Ephesians 2:8).

Therefore, I am a Son of God through Christ who lives in me. (Galatians 3:26 - Galatians 2:20)

Meaning this idea that was presented that Christ isn't speaking to me (which he assumed I am a gentile), means he thinks we are gentiles in the eyes of Christ. But Rahab was adopted out of Jericho as a child of God and was no longer a Canaanite, but an Israelite, and not only an Israelite, but one of the people God used to bring about the Savior listed in the Savior's Genealogy. (Matthew 1:5 - Hebrews 11:31)

The heart of God is worlds above what we think it is, and this is why I say God would heal more people if they had more faith, such as the woman from Canaan who Lord Jesus commended for her great faith and healed her daughter. (Matthew 15:28)

God is not hard hearted and far from us, nor is he stiff and uptight like the people we encounter here. He is a God of justice and Holy, yes, but He is also righteous not full of rightness. There is a big difference between those two things, because if Christ came RIGHT then we are all WRONG before God's throne.

But this is not the case, Christ is RIGHTEOUS in that He makes our wrongs right. He heals and forgives others their faults and mistakes when they see their error and come to Him for help, desiring that which is good.

Telling people that God's not speaking to them puts a barrier between them and God and is not what God wants. God wants people to go to Him, and His heart is for them and their good, not against them like people think or are afraid of. The Father sent the Son because He loves us, not out of obligation.

Satan loves to tell people they are not in God's family, and to convince them to give up and accept being sick, or their situation, or accept the sin they are stuck in.

God doesn't want that, as God is love (1 John 4:8) and love doesn't seek to serve itself (1 Corinthians 13:5) but takes joy and serving others (Mark 10:45).


This means concerning healing, that Christ came to Earth to both heal and save, as the example of Christ from the Old Testament revealed by Christ directly is the snake lifted in the wilderness to heal the children of Israel bit by "fiery serpents." (John 3:14)

Putting a barrier between people and God of legalism is directly opposite the heart of God and hinders faith that brings healing. (Mark 11:23 - Hebrews 11:6)

Matthew 19:14
But Jesus said, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of heaven.”
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
His healing then was to identify Himself as the Messiah.

Today: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."

By this quote, you are saying that healing is no longer present today because "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."?
 
Upvote 0

Guojing

Well-Known Member
Apr 11, 2019
13,005
1,390
sg
✟268,669.00
Country
Singapore
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
But Rahab was adopted out of Jericho as a child of God and was no longer a Canaanite, but an Israelite, and not only an Israelite, but one of the people God used to bring about the Savior listed in the Savior's Genealogy. (Matthew 1:5 - Hebrews 11:31)

You cannot use Rahab as an example for us today.

Under Israel's covenant, one can become part of Israel by willing to undergo physical circumcision (for males) and follow the Law of Moses (Exodus 12:48)

Many gentiles did that in the OT, and thus they are no longer gentiles but Jews (Esther 8:17)

Thank God that we males don't have to follow that today, thanks to gospel of grace revealed to our apostle Paul (Romans 11:11).

We do not need to join Israel to be saved, unlike Rahab.

But of course, the side effect of that is that we no longer could have the signs of Israel today, including the gift of healing. We walk by faith, not by sight (2 Corinthians 5:7)
 
Upvote 0

RDKirk

Alien, Pilgrim, and Sojourner
Site Supporter
Mar 3, 2013
41,934
22,571
US
✟1,713,458.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
By this quote, you are saying that healing is no longer present today because "blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed."?
I'm saying it was never Jesus' mission to heal everyone, and it's not today.
 
Upvote 0