The "watch rapture view"

The first coming of Jesus was in the first century AD. The event that some Christians call "the Rapture" is actually Jesus' second coming to earth.

At the last trumpet blast, the Christians who are alive on earth will rise to meet Jesus in the air, and then they will follow him to the Kidron Valley/Jehoshaphat Valley for the final judgment, aka the white throne/sheep and goats judgment.

The people who died before Jesus' second coming will rise from the dead at the trumpet blast, and the righteous ones of this group will then accompany Jesus to earth to meet with the righteous ones who will ascend to meet them in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus' first coming to earth was at his incarnation. Jesus will physically return to earth only once more, and it will be at the end of time.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

PesachPup said:

You have reversed the meanings that I posted for eido and ginosko.

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Strong's Greek: 1097. γινώσκω (ginóskó) -- To know, to come to know, to recognize, to perceive ginosko
1. to learn to know...
2. to know, understand, perceive, have knowledge of...
The word can describe marital intimacy (Matthew 1:25), household familiarity (Luke 16:4), or the servant’s awareness of a master’s will (Luke 12:47–48). Behind each use lies the covenant idea that genuine knowledge binds persons together. The fullest realization of that bond is the believer’s union with Christ: “I am the good shepherd. I know My sheep and My sheep know Me” (John 10:14).

Strong's Greek: 1492. εἴδω (eidó) -- To see, to know, to perceive, to be aware eido
1. to perceive (with the eyes)...
2. ...to perceive by any of the senses: Matthew 27:54; Mark 15:39; Luke 17:15...
3. ...to perceive, notice, discern, discover...
4. to see, i. e. to turn the eyes, the mind, the attention to anything5. to experience, τί, any state or condition...
5. to experience...

You referenced two passages in particular...

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV 8 ...11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, KNOW/ginosko the Lord: for all shall KNOW/eido me, from the least to the greatest.

Speaking of knowing the Coming of Christ we have the word "eido." See Mat 24.36,42,43.

And we have "eido" contrasted with "ginosko" in Heb 8.

Heb 8.11 No longer will they teach their neighbor,
or say to one another, ‘Know (ginosko) the Lord,’
because they will all know (eido) me,
from the least of them to the greatest.

But this is a far cry from saying that the OT was intended to provided only a deficient knowledge of God. It just happens that it *can be deficient* if it isn't attached to a full and lasting spiritual recognition.

Neither does "eido" necessarily convey a true spiritual recognition because when no spiritual understanding is permanently drawn from a sensual experience of Christ, there is no lasting or full spiritual enlightenment.

Heb 6.4 It is impossible for those who have once been enlightened, who have tasted the heavenly gift, who have shared in the Holy Spirit, 5 who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the powers of the coming age 6 and who have fallen away, to be brought back to repentance. To their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace.

So, as I said, you are trying to establish a particular contextual use for eido and ginosko in Heb 8 and then applying it as a dichotomy between OT knowing and NT knowing. That doesn't follow.

What matters is that we take our "ginosko" and bring it into an "eido" knowing that is full and lasting. And it "lasts" only under the New Covenant not because it is more "spiritual," but only because Christ's blood has made us to know it as a completed sacrifice, enabling us to access God's Spirit in perpetuity.

I wanted you to get back to the "watching" part of the exchange, but you are caught up on this dichotomy between "ginosko" and "eido," and then trying to interpret passages based on that particular distinction. As I said, it doesn't work for me, because words can mean different things in different contexts.

Jan001 said:

The first coming of Jesus was in the first century AD. The event that some Christians call "the Rapture" is actually Jesus' second coming to earth.

At the last trumpet blast, the Christians who are alive on earth will rise to meet Jesus in the air, and then they will follow him to the Kidron Valley/Jehoshaphat Valley for the final judgment, aka the white throne/sheep and goats judgment.

The people who died before Jesus' second coming will rise from the dead at the trumpet blast, and the righteous ones of this group will then accompany Jesus to earth to meet with the righteous ones who will ascend to meet them in the air.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 We do not want you to be unaware, brothers, about those who have fallen asleep, so that you may not grieve like the rest, who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose, so too will God, through Jesus, bring with him those who have fallen asleep. 15 Indeed, we tell you this, on the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will surely not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord himself, with a word of command, with the voice of an archangel and with the trumpet of God, will come down from heaven, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. Thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore, console one another with these words.

1 Corinthians 15:51-53 Behold, I tell you a mystery. We shall not all fall asleep, but we will all be changed, 52 in an instant, in the blink of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For that which is corruptible must clothe itself with incorruptibility, and that which is mortal must clothe itself with immortality.

John 5:28-29 Do not be amazed at this, because the hour is coming in which all who are in the tombs will hear his voice 29 and will come out, those who have done good deeds to the resurrection of life, but those who have done wicked deeds to the resurrection of condemnation.

Jesus' first coming to earth was at his incarnation. Jesus will physically return to earth only once more, and it will be at the end of time.

Hebrews 9:27-28 Just as it is appointed that human beings die once, and after this the judgment, 28 so also Christ, offered once to take away the sins of many, will appear a second time, not to take away sin but to bring salvation to those who eagerly await him.

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I don't know much about final judgment taking place in the Kidron Valley, but basically I agree with you. I'm Postrib. The big event takes place in the last hour of this age, when Jesus returns with us. But when he comes he must 1st resurrect the departed saints and then gather us up by angels to be with him as he returns. It all takes place within a single second. No itinerary necessary--no multiple destinations or connecting flights.

RandyPNW said:

I don't know much about final judgment taking place in the Kidron Valley, but basically I agree with you. I'm Postrib. The big event takes place in the last hour of this age, when Jesus returns with us. But when he comes he must 1st resurrect the departed saints and then gather us up by angels to be with him as he returns. It all takes place within a single second. No itinerary necessary--no multiple destinations or connecting flights.

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In a mere blink of an eye!

Scholars believe that the present Kidron Valley is where the Valley of Jehoshaphat was located.

We do know that only the righteous may enter into the third heaven and thereby see God the Father's face, so the judgment cannot possibly be held in the third heaven. Jesus will make his judgment throne appear wherever he desires the judgment to be.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the clean of heart, for they will see God.

Joel 4:2 I will gather all the nations and bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat. There I will enter into judgment with them on behalf of my people, my heritage, Israel; Because they scattered them among the nations, they divided up my land.

Matthew 25:31-32 When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit upon his glorious throne, 32 and all the nations will be assembled before him. And he will separate them one from another, as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.

Joel 4:12 Let the nations rouse themselves and come up to the Valley of Jehoshaphat; For there I will sit in judgment upon all the neighboring nations.