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Cessationism isn't biblical

RDKirk

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Oh?

Maybe that would have been what the disciples would tell you in this example if the Lord Jesus had not said otherwise?


Mark 9:21-29

21So He asked his father, “How long has this been happening to him?”

And he said, “From childhood. 22And often he has thrown him both into the fire and into the water to destroy him. But if You can do anything, have compassion on us and help us.”


23Jesus said to him, “If you can believe, all things are possible to him who believes.”


24Immediately the father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!”


25When Jesus saw that the people came running together, He rebuked the unclean spirit, saying to it, “Deaf and dumb spirit, I command you, come out of him and enter him no more!” 26Then the spirit cried out, convulsed him greatly, and came out of him. And he became as one dead, so that many said, “He is dead.” 27But Jesus took him by the hand and lifted him up, and he arose.


28And when He had come into the house, His disciples asked Him privately, “Why could we not cast it out?”


29So He said to them, “This kind can come out by nothing but prayer and fasting.”




I think it is 100% when we have 100% faith.

Also, I am aware of many many many healings. I have things not healed within my own self, but it does not change that I believe in God working today and healing many.

The doubt that says God does not heal today, is exactly the kind of doubt that impedes the healing that faith in Christ brings.

The woman that touched the hem of Lord Jesus' garments was not healed by his clothes, and certainly not doubt, but by faith.

Prayer and fasting is a means by which we increase our faith in God and His goodness and love towards us as a good Father.
I am aware of miraculous healing today, and I have had things healed miraculously within my own self.

It's an easy thing to say "...it is 100% when we have 100% faith."

But faith isn't always what people think it is.

The requirement is to have 100% faith for what is necessary for the Lord's mission.

Having 100% faith for something the Lord doesn't want or need for you to have or accomplish is useless.

When what you need is what is necessary for the Lord's mission, then you can have 100% faith to receive it.

If it's just for the desires of your own self...not so much. And that includes health.
 
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Zceptre

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It's an easy thing to say "...it is 100% when we have 100% faith."
Well that depends on who is saying it and how much pain and hardship they have endured before they said it wouldn't it? I understand what you mean in that it is easier to say things, than to do things. (At least that is how I perceived your intended meaning) But it isn't easy for everyone to say that. Even saying it can be hard for some people, like I said, depending on their life and situation.

The requirement is to have 100% faith for what is necessary for the Lord's mission.

Having 100% faith for something the Lord doesn't want or need for you to have or accomplish is useless.

When what you need is what is necessary for the Lord's mission, then you can have 100% faith to receive it.

If it's just for the desires of your own self...not so much. And that includes health.
What mission would that be?

Isn't this the mission the Lord Jesus proclaimed Himself?

Luke 4:17-19

17And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

Healing and freeing those in oppression and bondage? Such as the woman with the blood illness? (Luke 8:48)

What mission greater is there than the two commandments and the Gospel of the Kingdom preached by Lord Jesus?

What I mean is this, where is an example where the Lord Himself told someone what I quoted above that you said when they asked for healing?

The man by the pool, the blind man in Lord Jesus' own town, the man let down from the ceiling...

I also know you are referring to James 4:3 in that we pray for things and don't receive when we are lusting for things not needed, but Paul didn't say to be content in illness or sickness... he said with food and clothing to be content. (1 Timothy 6:8)

Is there an example, other than the one in Matthew 17, of a person not being healed?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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That's an argument for testing, not for cessationism. Scripture already describes sorcerers and false prophets and warns us, "Test the spirits."
That seems to be the "underlying" argument for cessationism. People don't trust, so it's wrong.
 
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RDKirk

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Well that depends on who is saying it and how much pain and hardship they have endured before they said it wouldn't it? I understand what you mean in that it is easier to say things, than to do things. (At least that is how I perceived your intended meaning) But it isn't easy for everyone to say that. Even saying it can be hard for some people, like I said, depending on their life and situation.


What mission would that be?

Isn't this the mission the Lord Jesus proclaimed Himself?

Luke 4:17-19

17And He was handed the book of the prophet Isaiah. And when He had opened the book, He found the place where it was written:

18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

Healing and freeing those in oppression and bondage? Such as the woman with the blood illness? (Luke 8:48)

What mission greater is there than the two commandments and the Gospel of the Kingdom preached by Lord Jesus?

What I mean is this, where is an example where the Lord Himself told someone what I quoted above that you said when they asked for healing?

The man by the pool, the blind man in Lord Jesus' own town, the man let down from the ceiling...

I also know you are referring to James 4:3 in that we pray for things and don't receive when we are lusting for things not needed, but Paul didn't say to be content in illness or sickness... he said with food and clothing to be content. (1 Timothy 6:8)

Is there an example, other than the one in Matthew 17, of a person not being healed?
Paul himself. Whether his problem was physical or not, it remains that his prayer to have that problem removed from him did not result in the problem being removed from him.

Apparently, also Timothy.
 
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Zceptre

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Paul himself. Whether his problem was physical or not, it remains that his prayer to have that problem removed from him did not result in the problem being removed from him.

Apparently, also Timothy.
As for Paul's thorn, it seems to me people are clearly disconnecting the passage at verse 7 from the first 6 verses of Chapter 12 in 2nd Corinthians. If one reads the passage in context, as if one would read a letter, which it is... he begins by describing his experience in Lystra being stoned to death ("whether in the body or out of the body" - this is first person descriptive) in which he was harassed by the Jewish people there who did not want his message and who stoned him, then in verse 7 he continues to add to the already built foundation of the story with "a messenger of Satan" in that the people were rejecting his message and not only harassing him for it, but even to to the point of stoning him violently... Hence, the ending of the short story based on his wording in verse 10, "Therefore," and continues by describing (all) the things he has suffered and listing 3 of the 5 being related to people. (reproaches, persecutions, distresses[distresses can be argued not people related])

I think it was both, more so... all of the above. But nevertheless it's relevant.

I think the healed or not healed situation (each specific case) is more complex than we can estimate necessarily, being we are not God. But we are called to faith, not to doubt.

I think the book of Job has a strong insight into why many of the people suffering physical ailments are not healed at times, and simply put, God is blessing those that He can because our curses are turned into blessings through the blood of Christ. (Matthew 5:12 & Job 2:6 & Job 42:10)

I truly believe there are also thousands of people who suffer things God is willing to heal everyday and it is their doubt, like in Matthew 17, that prevented the healing.

Chapter 11 of Hebrews hammers this to the floor with an intensity, and Hebrews 11:6 plainly states God rewards those who seek Him with faith, which is the opposite of doubt.
 
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ARBITER01

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ARBITER01

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Now to present the other side of the "controversy"

The people stating they represent the biblical gifts have many fruits of occultism.

For example: When tongues events do not involve translation and include animal noises, this sounds like Shamanism, not the tongues of pentecost. As the bible teaches, test everything, keep to the good, avoid the appearance of evil.

Another example: Prophets rise up and act more like fortunetellers and double down when they're wrong.

Another example: healings are performed but people feel a burning in their hands taking on the appearance of buddhist practices like "Reiki."

During worship services people fall on the ground and start acting like a demon is being cast out of them, but based on the above indicators it is difficult to tell if a demon is going out or in.

I also believe God still gives gifts like at the beginning of the New Testament, but testing whether it is of God is essential.

Just so you know, the churches that are operating correctly in the gifts are not on youtube.

I do agree though. We must discern things, but we must also ensure we are understanding the proper function of those things according to scripture.
 
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Guojing

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Or,....................... I don't try to insert scripture sections into the conversation that have nothing to do with the topic.

His first coming was only to Israel, in those 3 passages, is relevant to why Jesus did so much healing among them, and why we cannot just assume that he will therefore continue to do so for us gentile believers.

I mean, Matthew 10:5-8 even had Jesus explicitly restricting the healing that the 12 would do, to only among the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which reinforced the meaning of Matthew 15:24.

That passage also let us all know, that the healing that they would do is linked to the gospel of the kingdom to the nation of Israel: that their promised Messiah is finally here and ready to usher believers into that promised kingdom.

And you so confidently can say they have nothing to do with the topic of healing.
 
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Guojing

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To set an example, of course.

Would you allow the possibility that those healings were a sign to the nation of Israel, that he was indeed the Christ that was prophesied to them? (John 20:30-31)

That is what the Lord Jesus said Himself.

Matthew 16:24
Then Jesus said to His disciples, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow Me.

John 14:12
“Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do he will do also; and greater works than these he will do, because I go to My Father.

Do you know who Jesus was NOT speaking to in those passages? (Matthew 15:24).
 
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Guojing

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Having 100% faith for something the Lord doesn't want or need for you to have or accomplish is useless.

When what you need is what is necessary for the Lord's mission, then you can have 100% faith to receive it.

If it's just for the desires of your own self...not so much. And that includes health.

I guess you are saying "God can heal today but does not mean he will always heal"?
 
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Guojing

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18“The Spirit of the Lord is upon Me,
Because He has anointed Me
To preach the gospel to the poor;
He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted,
To proclaim liberty to the captives
And recovery of sight to the blind,
To set at liberty those who are oppressed;
19To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.”

Do you know of Daniel's 70 week prophecy?

Do you know why Mary was not surprised at all that the Messiah was coming, at that time when Gabriel appeared to her?

She is only asking how can he come from her womb, since she was a virgin
 
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Guojing

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ARBITER01

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His first coming was only to Israel, in those 3 passages, is relevant to why Jesus did so much healing among them, and why we cannot just assume that he will therefore continue to do so for us gentile believers.

I mean, Matthew 10:5-8 even had Jesus explicitly restricting the healing that the 12 would do, to only among the lost sheep of the house of Israel, which reinforced the meaning of Matthew 15:24.

That passage also let us all know, that the healing that they would do is linked to the gospel of the kingdom to the nation of Israel: that their promised Messiah is finally here and ready to usher believers into that promised kingdom.

And you so confidently can say they have nothing to do with the topic of healing.

Sorry, I'm not interested in talking about Israel. I'd like to stay on topic instead of straying into personal beliefs that are a distraction.
 
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Guojing

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Sorry, I'm not interested in talking about Israel. I'd like to stay on topic instead of straying into personal beliefs that are a distraction.

Alright then, this topic always comes out regularly, so by debating our respective beliefs and doctrines, it always helps everyone to understand the different perspectives that the Body of Christ has.
 
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Zceptre

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Would you allow the possibility that those healings were a sign to the nation of Israel, that he was indeed the Christ that was prophesied to them? (John 20:30-31)
Agreed. Without question. Yet Christ did not reject the woman at the well, nor the centurion that sent his servant, and even commended the centurion stating He had not found such faith in Israel and immediately the servant was healed.
Do you know who Jesus was NOT speaking to in those passages? (Matthew 15:24).
If you are, obviously, referring to the gentiles, I would thoroughly disagree and with a strong emphasis on the following:

Matthew 10:40
“He who receives you receives Me, and he who receives Me receives Him who sent Me.

In addition to this He instructed specifically:

Matthew 28:20
teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen.



God the Son sent Paul and Paul was sent to the gentiles.

Acts 22:21
Then He said to me, ‘Depart, for I will send you far from here to the Gentiles.’ ”


The mission was specific to what Jesus stated it was yes, but God's intent was that through His people the world would know His Son, meaning the purpose of being sent to Israel was to give the oracles of God and salvation to those God called first. If the intent was to literally only send Christ to the lost sheep of Israel and it never transfer into the gentiles, salvation would fall under this mission statement, but we know that this isn't the case and the Lord Jesus died for all of us Jew or Gentile.

John 1:29
The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him, and said, “Behold! The Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world!

Isaiah 54:3
For you shall expand to the right and to the left, And your descendants will inherit the nations, And make the desolate cities inhabited.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

Romans 2:29
but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God.

We can legalize anything we like in our own mind, but God is after the heart. His love reaches beyond Israel as He depicts clearly in the book of Jonah. The Lord heals all who come to Him and while He made Israel for a people and for them to be His chosen nation, He loves all of His children no less. For example:

Romans 10:13
For “whoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.”

And in action while He was on Earth on His mission:

Matthew 15:21-28
21Then Jesus went out from there and departed to the region of Tyre and Sidon.
22And behold, a woman of Canaan came from that region and cried out to Him, saying, “Have mercy on me, O Lord, Son of David! My daughter is severely demon-possessed.”
23But He answered her not a word.
And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, “Send her away, for she cries out after us.”
24But He answered and said, “I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.”
25Then she came and worshiped Him, saying, “Lord, help me!”
26But He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the little dogs.”
27And she said, “Yes, Lord, yet even the little dogs eat the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.”
28Then Jesus answered and said to her, “O woman, great is your faith! Let it be to you as you desire.” And her daughter was healed from that very hour.

The good Lord Jesus Christ was not rejecting this woman for being a gentile, He was using the general rule of thumb of His mission to test her faith. I agree He went to the Jewish people in Israel, and He did not travel outside of the country to preach. But His heart is for the world, and He is a good Father who loves all His children and ultimately it was His own plan to save all that would believe on Him and call on His name.

John 16:27
for the Father Himself loves you, because you have loved Me, and have believed that I came forth from God.

Healing is for all who will come to Christ and believe.
 
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Guojing

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Jesus did not heal everyone in Israel.

Yes I can certainly accept that he probably did not.

But from John 20:30 reminded us, there were so many other signs, including healing, that Jesus did that was not written down.
He healed as many as necessary according to His purpose and mission.

Would you agree with me, however, that his purpose and mission in doing those healings in his first coming is
  • Only to Israel (Matthew 10:5-8, Matthew 15:24)
  • to proclaim to them he was indeed the Christ that was prophesied to them? (Luke 7:19-22).
If not, could you share your understanding on what that purpose and mission is?
 
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