The "watch rapture view"

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

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# 1 , And there is Greek word called Rapture !!

dan p

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

Click to expand...

It depends on how Christians interpret "watching?" If they think it is the expectation that he could come "at any time," they think this ensures that they live moral lives. They think those who lose an "imminent" expectation will let down their guard and fall into immorality or complacency.

Others think that "watching" means watching out for things that try to throw us off track. We're to watch out for our own complacency, temptations to greed, temptations to lusts of various kinds, etc. In this way we stay prepared for the coming of the Kingdom, whenever it does come. It is not on us to anticipate when it will come. But we are to stay focused on jobs we're doing for the Kingdom right now.

But you're right. We should all be able to agree on the need to stay spiritually tuned and ready for any eventuality. I just think there's a problem with watching out for current problems and looking for signs of Christ's imminent return.

If we look for his return, instead of focusing on our current ministerial needs, we will become "so heavenly minded that we are no earthly good." We will be distracted away from our current ministry to indulge in eschatological expectation, guessing what event is leading up to Antichrist's appearance, and then Christ's imminent return.

In reality, we are told that just as the Antichrist is coming, so in our own day there are antichrists that have to be avoided or neutralized. It is our time that is most precious before the end comes and Christ returns. Our ministry is not just a casual thing, but an essential thing in preparing for Christ's Return. And if ministry necessarily *precedes* Christ's Return, we must not think God will send Christ back while we're in the middle of a ministry that is preparing for it!

We should not think that looking to Christ's Coming is somehow negating what he has called us to do today. Otherwise, we will lose interest in projects that could conceivably be cut short by Christ's imminent Return. We would be like unmotivated Communist workers who become less productive with the knowledge that their pay may be taken away by the State and given to others the State considers more important.

So I'm not a guy who believes in "watching" in the sense of an imminent expectation. Rather, we keep watch for his Coming in order to properly manage our current ministry, avoiding Antichrists in our time, and learning how to cope with the evils of our own time. In this way we are always ready for the coming of the Kingdom, whenever it does come.

Dan Perez said:

# 1 , And there is Greek word called Rapture !!

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There is a Greek word (harpazo) called "catching up" in 1 Th 4:16-17, which Jerome translated as rapturo in the Latin Vulgate.

Douggg said:

Exactly.

The watch rapture view does not attempt to prove/disprove any the of popular rapture views. There will always be discussions involving the popular rapture views.

The watch rapture view is to watch/be ready and continue to watch/beady until the rapture takes place.

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According to the apostolic teaching (1 Th 4:16-17) of Jesus Christ (Lk 10:16), it takes place after the resurrection.

Douggg said:

Should the rapture not take place until the day of Jesus's second coming, then the post-trib view will have been proven to be correct. Should the rapture take place before the 70th week begins then the pre-trib view will have been proven to be correct.

The "watch rapture view" is a fresh new view which we all can adopt, without altering our position, whatever it may be, regarding the popular rapture views..

watch/be ready.

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Douggg said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

Click to expand...

What you have done is conflated the meanings of watching and being ready. For you say, "the key is to watch, be prepared (aka ready) ". Paraphrasing Jesus in verse 43 says this: If the goodman knew his house was going to be destroyed, he would be watching when the thief comes. Knowing, ala "eido", is not about when he is coming [when is he coming? ], but rather [at the time of his coming] you do not know/eido what it will be like. Meaning you have not experienced what it will be like when he comes. Watching, says Jesus, [also] is a necessary precursor to being ready.

"Be ye ready also" means in addition to watching. Just being saved, and simply believing Jesus will return, is not enough to being ready. We must be looking for the signs that Jesus said foretell of his coming. Sadly, many will not be ready to meet him when he comes. Many will fall away when tribulation and persecution comes.

Mat 13:21 KJV Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

What you have done is conflated the meanings of watching and being ready. For you say, "the key is to watch, be prepared (aka ready) ". Paraphrasing Jesus in verse 43 says this: If the goodman knew his house was going to be destroyed, he would be watching when the thief comes. Knowing, ala "eido", is not about when he is coming [when is he coming? ], but rather [at the time of his coming] you do not know/eido what it will be like. Meaning you have not experienced what it will be like when he comes. Watching, says Jesus, [also] is a necessary precursor to being ready.

"Be ye ready also" means in addition to watching. Just being saved, and simply believing Jesus will return, is not enough to being ready. We must be looking for the signs that Jesus said foretell of his coming. Sadly, many will not be ready to meet him when he comes. Many will fall away when tribulation and persecution comes.

Mat 13:21 KJV Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended.

Be Blessed
The PuP

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In my view, Jesus was using "watching" as a synonym for "being ready." If we "watch" we are in fact getting "ready" as Jesus used the term.

But as you say, these concepts are not necessarily the same unless used in a context that joins them. In this case, "watching" is "being ready."

But outside of how Jesus is using "watching," it can fall woefully short of "being ready." For example, I could be engaged in all kinds of eschatological preparation by drawing up prophetic maps, interpreting current events, and even selling some of my material belongings. But if we are not walking in step with the Lord spiritually we are not really "being ready." We are just engaging in a "prophetic watch."

Sentry duty is not necessarily "getting ready." To get ready properly we have to be walking with the Lord, and not just engaging our minds in developing prophetic calendars and schemes. To try to anticipate the signs and times in this way goes against what Jesus specifically said regarding anticipating his Return.

We are *not* to know times and seasons as our main focus in order to get ready for his Coming. Rather, we are to be engaged in the ministry we are called to presently in specific preparation for that event. We bring the message of warning to the world first, and then comes the end.

What Jesus told his Disciples of in the Olivet Discourse was a different context from his Coming, though Jesus compared these events. But in the case of the fall of the Temple, Jesus warned his Disciples that the time for that to happen had already come, that it would happen in *their generation."

But by contrast Jesus' Return is going to follow a long Jewish Exile and Diaspora that necessarily precedes his Coming. He will not Come until after they have been sent into Exile for the longest punishment in the history of the Jews. Only then will he Return.

In the meantime it is our duty to continue with this job of testifying to the Gospel and warning the world of coming Judgment. He will not come until God sees fit to do so.

To be ready for that event we are now given opportunity to relay the message that we can be converted spiritually in order to repent and be spared God's hostility towards Sin. To be "ready" therefore is to be *converted* and to remain true to this conversion spiritually and morally.

RandyPNW said:

In my view, Jesus was using "watching" as a synonym for "being ready." If we "watch" we are in fact getting "ready" as Jesus used the term.

But as you say, these concepts are not necessarily the same unless used in a context that joins them. In this case, "watching" is "being ready."

But outside of how Jesus is using "watching," it can fall woefully short of "being ready." For example, I could be engaged in all kinds of eschatological preparation by drawing up prophetic maps, interpreting current events, and even selling some of my material belongings. But if we are not walking in step with the Lord spiritually we are not really "being ready." We are just engaging in a "prophetic watch."

Sentry duty is not necessarily "getting ready." To get ready properly we have to be walking with the Lord, and not just engaging our minds in developing prophetic calendars and schemes. To try to anticipate the signs and times in this way goes against what Jesus specifically said regarding anticipating his Return.

We are *not* to know times and seasons as our main focus in order to get ready for his Coming. Rather, we are to be engaged in the ministry we are called to presently in specific preparation for that event. We bring the message of warning to the world first, and then comes the end.

What Jesus told his Disciples of in the Olivet Discourse was a different context from his Coming, though Jesus compared these events. But in the case of the fall of the Temple, Jesus warned his Disciples that the time for that to happen had already come, that it would happen in *their generation."

But by contrast Jesus' Return is going to follow a long Jewish Exile and Diaspora that necessarily precedes his Coming. He will not Come until after they have been sent into Exile for the longest punishment in the history of the Jews. Only then will he Return.

In the meantime it is our duty to continue with this job of testifying to the Gospel and warning the world of coming Judgment. He will not come until God sees fit to do so.

To be ready for that event we are now given opportunity to relay the message that we can be converted spiritually in order to repent and be spared God's hostility towards Sin. To be "ready" therefore is to be *converted* and to remain true to this conversion spiritually and morally.

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There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

He said that we would [know-get an intellectual assent] to when his coming is near (ginosko) when we SEE "know/eido" [sensually experience] all these things. Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1, that they (their generation) would NOT KNOW [intellectually assend to] the times and seasons of his return. Why? Because they would not be experiencing "all these things". It didn't preclude them from watching. It may or may not be our generation, but the generation that does experience ALL these things, will intellectually assend to knowing that his coming is near! How will they know? By watching for the signs that Jesus foretold!

Mat 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be FULFILLED. (Be known).

FULFILLED, ginomai. having knowledge of it coming to pass...seeing it happen! By watching!

The question then arises, "Why does he want us to know when his coming is near? [Thru. Watching]? So that we can be ready to stand before the Son of man!

Luk 21:36 KJV Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

There is a difference between "knowing" by intellectual assent (ginosko) and "knowing" through an experience of the senses (eido). Both of them are used in the discourse. And both words are used in Matthew 24:33.
Mar 13:29 ISV In the same way, when you SEE (eido) these things taking place, you will know that the Son of Man is near, right at the door.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

He said that we would [know-get an intellectual assent] to when his coming is near (ginosko) when we SEE "know/eido" [sensually experience] all these things. Jesus told the disciples in Acts 1, that they (their generation) would NOT KNOW [intellectually assend to] the times and seasons of his return. Why? Because they would not be experiencing "all these things". It didn't preclude them from watching. It may or may not be our generation, but the generation that does experience ALL these things, will intellectually assend to knowing that his coming is near! How will they know? By watching for the signs that Jesus foretold!

Mat 24:34 KJV Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be FULFILLED. (Be known).

FULFILLED, ginomai. having knowledge of it coming to pass...seeing it happen! By watching!

The question then arises, "Why does he want us to know when his coming is near? [Thru. Watching]? So that we can be ready to stand before the Son of man!

Luk 21:36 KJV Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

Be Blessed
The PuP

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I agree that there is a difference between knowing by senses, and thus preparing, and knowing intellectually. But they can also be the same thing. This would be a distinction without a difference.

That is, I can intellectually assent to Jesus' Coming and at the same time recognize with my eyes physical evidence that his Coming is near, though that is not yet possible--we see nothing that suggests he is coming in the immediate moment.

What we must recognize is the difference between the need to physically prepare for and physically see things that are happening now, and things that are distant and in the future. The things that are happening now are our priority, and not the distant things.

I suggest that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was comparing the relatively imminent judgment against the Jews in 70 AD and the 2nd Coming Jesus' Disciples were asking him about. The one event was already up on the calendar and had to be physically prepared for. The other event was distant and not important to try to physically prepare for or anticipate. Distant things are subject to "times and seasons" that are under the Father's care, and not our present concern (Acts 1.7).

We prepare for that distant event, ie Christ's Coming strictly by remaining ready spiritually, as always, continuing to walk in our converted lifestyle, remaining true to Christ. If we remain true to him today we are ready today, even if the event remains a long ways off.

We cannot prepare for that event physically but it is not yet of curremt concern. It belongs to the "times and seasons" category that we are not to try to anticipate and physically see or prepare for.

The lesson is, I think, to be engaged in things that are happening now, or about to happen imminently, just as Jesus' Disciples had to prepare for the relatively imminent event of 70 AD. The things that are far off we don't need to speculate on because our higher priority is in doing things now that must precede Christ's Coming.

We must preach the Gospel of conversion and we must warn the world of God's judgment against their Sin. This is our priority and must precede the actual time of Christ's Return.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

Matthew 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


So since we are currently in a pre-70th week time status, the rapture could happen pre-70th week.

Click to expand...

No, we are not in a pre-70th week time status. The 70th week was fulfilled long ago.

Douggg said:

Should the rapture not take place as the 70th week begins, then we should continue to watch - as the resurrection/rapture is even closer.

My point is - don't be so dogmatic (as to insisting pre-trib, mid-trib, pre-wrath, post trib timing). The key is to watch, be prepared, Matthew 24:44

Click to expand...

You say don't be dogmatic about pre-trib, etc. while being dogmatic about us supposedly being in a pre-70th week time status. If you really don't want the timing of the trib to have anything to do with the point you're making, then don't talk about any supposed pre-70th week time status, either.

Douggg said:

Matthew 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

We all should be able to adopt the "watch rapture view".

Click to expand...

What do you think we should be doing to watch and be ready, Douggg? It's strange that you would talk about this "watch rapture view" without even explaining what you think that means exactly.

RandyPNW said:

I agree that there is a difference between knowing by senses, and thus preparing, and knowing intellectually. But they can also be the same thing. This would be a distinction without a difference.

That is, I can intellectually assent to Jesus' Coming and at the same time recognize with my eyes physical evidence that his Coming is near, though that is not yet possible--we see nothing that suggests he is coming in the immediate moment.

What we must recognize is the difference between the need to physically prepare for and physically see things that are happening now, and things that are distant and in the future. The things that are happening now are our priority, and not the distant things.

I suggest that in the Olivet Discourse Jesus was comparing the relatively imminent judgment against the Jews in 70 AD and the 2nd Coming Jesus' Disciples were asking him about. The one event was already up on the calendar and had to be physically prepared for. The other event was distant and not important to try to physically prepare for or anticipate. Distant things are subject to "times and seasons" that are under the Father's care, and not our present concern (Acts 1.7).

We prepare for that distant event, ie Christ's Coming strictly by remaining ready spiritually, as always, continuing to walk in our converted lifestyle, remaining true to Christ. If we remain true to him today we are ready today, even if the event remains a long ways off.

We cannot prepare for that event physically but it is not yet of curremt concern. It belongs to the "times and seasons" category that we are not to try to anticipate and physically see or prepare for.

The lesson is, I think, to be engaged in things that are happening now, or about to happen imminently, just as Jesus' Disciples had to prepare for the relatively imminent event of 70 AD. The things that are far off we don't need to speculate on because our higher priority is in doing things now that must precede Christ's Coming.

We must preach the Gospel of conversion and we must warn the world of God's judgment against their Sin. This is our priority and must precede the actual time of Christ's Return.

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Looking strictly at English translations of the Bible, we find that the word "know" is used distinctively WITH and WITHOUT difference. E.g., if someone were to say, "I know the 45th POTUS". Without additional info, we don't know if they have personally met Mr. Trump, or if this is simply based on historical narratives. But if someone were to say, "I know the 16th POTUS", we know that this can only be based on historical knowledge, and not on a personal encounter with Lincoln. But we must be careful not to give this a generalized application to the Greek text, when it is translated to English. It is two different words and not just one...ginosko and eido.

The clearest distinction that I can give of their distinctive differences (but translated into the same English word) is found in Hebrews 8.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV 8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah: 9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord. 10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: 11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, KNOW/ginosko the Lord: for all shall KNOW/eido me, from the least to the greatest.

Under the old covenant, the children of Israel were to teach their children (through intellectual assent) to KNOW the Lord. But under the new covenant, KNOWLEDGE of the Lord is based on a personal relationship, a salvation experience where his laws are written on people's hearts.

So, a distinguished indifference can occur if we don't pay attention to the different words that are translated into our English word "know". I would thus disagree with the view that makes them distinctively indifferent. And it thus makes a difference in our interpretive understandings.

Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

Looking strictly at English translations of the Bible, we find that the word "know" is used distinctively WITH and WITHOUT difference. E.g., if someone were to say, "I know the 45th POTUS". Without additional info, we don't know if they have personally met Mr. Trump, or if this is simply based on historical narratives. But if someone were to say, "I know the 16th POTUS", we know that this can only be based on historical knowledge, and not on a personal encounter with Lincoln. But we must be careful not to give this a generalized application to the Greek text, when it is translated to English. It is two different words and not just one...ginosko and eido.

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I have no trouble understanding that more than one Greek word can have the same English word they're being translated into. There are different kiinds of "knowing." A more intimate "knowing," however, does not carry the context of Heb 8 into Mat 24. One can know God intimately and have an intimate awareness of something--the contexts are different.

Transferring the context with a particular word into a different context falls under the category of "Interpretive Fallacy." We can learn about the meaning of a word, but we also have to respect how it is used in context. Context is king.

You did not address my position at all--just focused on the meaning of "knowing." You did not address how "knowing" affects my position on these things at all. You did not show how your view of "knowledge" delegitimizes my interpretation of what Jesus said about "watching."

Douggg said:

Watch for Jesus sent by the Father to rapture us up from this earth as something good, the blessed hope, which we are blessed with the redemption of our bodies, and be taken by Jesus to heaven, to forever be with Him.

How to make sure that we are ready..... by being saved in Christ and to love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your mind. And love your neighbor as your self. (Matthew 22:37-39)

Jesus looked up to heaven when he prayed. Watching for the Father to send Jesus to take us up from this earth, involves praying looking up to heaven as Jesus did, thanking the Father in advance, praising His holy name, for what He is going to do - redeem our bodies, and end our troubles in this life.

Also, pray with our heads bowed, humble before the Lord.

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I don't think we are expected to look up towards heaven watching for Jesus to return. It's fine if you want to do that, but that's not what He said to do. He talked about watching that we are not deceived (Matthew 24:4) and being about our Master's business until He comes (Matthew 24:42-51).

But, what you said about how to make sure that we are ready is good. Loving God with all our heart, soul and mind and loving our neighbor as ourselves is certainly a great way to make sure that we are ready.

Here are other things that scripture says about being ready for His coming and the rapture:

Revelation 16:15 “Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

Jesus was speaking figuratively here about watching and being ready for when He comes as a thief. What was He talking about? I think He was talking about the same kind of things that Paul and Peter wrote about in terms of watching and being ready for the coming of Christ when He comes as a thief and the rapture occurs so that we are not overtaken by His wrath:

1 Thessalonians 5:2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape. 4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, so that this Day should overtake you as a thief. 5 You are all sons of light and sons of the day. We are not of the night nor of darkness. 6 Therefore let us not sleep, as others do, but let us watch and be sober. 7 For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk are drunk at night. 8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him. 11 Therefore comfort each other and edify one another, just as you also are doing.

2 Peter 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?

What we are to watch is to not allow ourselves to be deceived (Jesus said watch that you are not deceived in Matthew 24:4) and to make sure we are in the spiritual light instead of spiritual darkness. To be ready for when Jesus comes unexpectedly as a thief in the night when the rapture occurs and His wrath comes down requires us to "be sober" by "putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation". And we should "comfort each other and edify one another". We need to be taking part "in holy conduct and godliness" while we make ourselves ready for His coming as a thief in the night when the rapture occurs and He takes vengeance on those who are not ready by destroying them with "sudden destruction" by fire from which "they shall not escape".

RandyPNW said:

I have no trouble understanding that more than one Greek word can have the same English word they're being translated into. There are different kiinds of "knowing." A more intimate "knowing," however, does not carry the context of Heb 8 into Mat 24. One can know God intimately and have an intimate awareness of something--the contexts are different.

Transferring the context with a particular word into a different context falls under the category of "Interpretive Fallacy." We can learn about the meaning of a word, but we also have to respect how it is used in context. Context is king.

You did not address my position at all--just focused on the meaning of "knowing." You did not address how "knowing" affects my position on these things at all. You did not show how your view of "knowledge" delegitimizes my interpretation of what Jesus said about "watching."

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Eido/Knowing (definition) the Lord, is not about intimacy, even though it is an intimate thing. It, is defined as an experience of the senses. Intimacy is just one of many ways we can have an experience of the senses. After all, we have 5 known physical senses. Knowing, [eido] in the discourse, is not about intimacy. It involves all of the senses, nor simply intimacy. Often, but not extensively, eido is translated using one of the simple senses...seeing.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see (eido) all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So, It makes no sense to define eido as intimacy. In Heb 8 it's about a personal relationship with the Lord... an experience of the senses. And, in Matthew 24, (agreeing with you) it makes no sense to define it as intimacy. But rather an experience of the senses. [You] thinking I'm guilty of Interpretive Fallacy keeps you from understanding Matt 24, imo. "This generation " shall see all these things.
Be Blessed
The PuP

RandyPNW said:

You did not address my position at all--just focused on the meaning of "knowing." You did not address how "knowing" affects my position on these things at all. You did not show how your view of "knowledge" delegitimizes my interpretation of what Jesus said about "watching."

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When Jesus says the following:

Mat 24:33-34 KJV 33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see ALL THESE THINGS, know that it is near, even at the doors. 34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till ALL THESE THINGS be fulfilled.

I emphasize "all these things" to make my point.
V.33- " ... when ye shall SEE 'all these things..." The word [see] used is the word eido. Meaning, when you experience with the senses, all these things. It's most notably not ginosko. Meaning you have to be there to experience all these things. It's not something you can learn (intellectually assent to) through some historical account. Then Jesus goes on to say, "... this generation shall see ALL THESE THINGS fulfilled..." This [ONE!] generation shall witness all these things fulfilled. Adding up "seeing" and "this generation", places all these things to be fulfilled together. It's either all been fulfilled, or will all be fulfilled in the future. You can't straddle the fence and say some now (70 AD) and some later (in our future). You place the events to be fulfilled (in part) at different times. It can only be one or the other.
Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

Eido/Knowing (definition) the Lord, is not about intimacy, even though it is an intimate thing. It, is defined as an experience of the senses. Intimacy is just one of many ways we can have an experience of the senses. After all, we have 5 known physical senses. Knowing, [eido] in the discourse, is not about intimacy. It involves all of the senses, nor simply intimacy. Often, but not extensively, eido is translated using one of the simple senses...seeing.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall see (eido) all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

So, It makes no sense to define eido as intimacy. In Heb 8 it's about a personal relationship with the Lord... an experience of the senses. And, in Matthew 24, (agreeing with you) it makes no sense to define it as intimacy. But rather an experience of the senses. [You] thinking I'm guilty of Interpretive Fallacy keeps you from understanding Matt 24, imo. "This generation " shall see all these things.
Be Blessed
The PuP

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My focus was not on "knowing" meaning "intimacy." My focus was on my position, eg "seeing this generation" is a matter of practical preparation for things viewed as actually happening preliminary to an historical event.

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

You say "eido" is not about intimacy. It is the *context* that determines whether the word applies to intimately knowing God or not.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV 8 ...11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, KNOW/ginosko the Lord: for all shall KNOW/eido me, from the least to the greatest.

You say "ginosko" has to do with intimately knowing God, or a personal knowledge of God. Again, "ginosoko" is applied based on *context* and does not have to have anything to do with God at all.

I believe that the contexts of these two passages are different, one to do with Roman armies marching close to Jerusalem and the other having to do with coming to know God more intimately through His acts of national salvation. They are two different words for "knowing" but they both have to do with coming to understand something.

The Roman armies were marching nearby, and the Jews knew it and saw it. Jesus' Disciples were instructed to prepare to leave, in order to avoid the judgment that was coming upon unbelieving Jews.

You were bringing up different Bible passages that discussed different ways of "knowing," and my point was that *context* is king and should determine how "knowing" is being used. We cannot take a single word and carry its context into a completely different context. That is the "Interpretive Fallacy."

When you say "under the new covenant, KNOWLEDGE of the Lord is based on a personal relationship, a salvation experience where his laws are written on people's hearts" you are identifying this kind of "knowing" with a more "intimate knowledge of God," which is not what it has to mean. The context "knowing" as applied here cannot carry the same context into all other prophecies.

For example, I may find the word for "come" to apply to Jesus' Coming. In another context the same word may simply refer to someone's "presence"--not having to do with Christ's Coming at all. We cannot say that every place "come" is used it refers to "Christ's Coming" simply because in some places in the Bible it applies in that context.

The same thing applies to "knowing." The word may apply in Heb 8 to "intimately know God" via His works of Salvation. But that does not mean that "seeing the generation of Christ literally unfold" in Matt 24 has a thing to do with "intimately witnessing God's acts of Salvation" as if it indicates a more carnal way of knowing God.

The context there has nothing to do with "knowing God" at all! It is just "understanding" something--a completely different context. You cannot compare the words "eido" and "ginosko" simply by showing them in different contexts as if they are comparing different ways of knowing God in every context. Heb 8 does *not* show "ginosko" to be a superior form of knowing God to "eido."

It is my position that "seeing the generation of Christ literally unfold" in Matt 24 has to do with Jesus' Disciples witnessing the appearance of Roman armies on the horizon, soon to come and bring judgment upon the rebellious Jews. Your explanation of how these different forms of "knowing" applies is confused and mixes contexts in order to prove your point.

You are trying to determine the definition of words based on their context when that is not how words are defined. Words can be applied in many different contexts. Therefore, words are defined by an appraisal of all the contexts they may apply in.

You apply "ginosko" as an intimate knowledge of the Lord. But it applies well outside of that, as well. You apply "eido" as a more carnal knowledge of the Lord. But it applies well outside of that, as well. We should not compare different contexts to define these words and their differences--it just confuses things.

RandyPNW said:

Mat 24:33 KJV So likewise ye, when ye shall SEE all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

You say "eido" is not about intimacy. It is the *context* that determines whether the word applies to intimately knowing God or not.

Heb 8:8-11 KJV 8 ...11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, KNOW/ginosko the Lord: for all shall KNOW/eido me, from the least to the greatest.

You say "ginosko" has to do with intimately knowing God, or a personal knowledge of God. Again, "ginosoko" is applied based on *context* and does not have to have anything to do with God at all.

Click to expand...

You have reversed the meanings that I posted for eido and ginosko.

Eido is that of an experience with the senses, of which I said, intimacy is one of many kinds of sensual experiences, along with seeing.
And ginosko is knowledge by intellectual assent, ala learning or teaching. In Hebrews 8:11, knowledge of God is/ was gained through the teaching of the law. The point made in that passage is, when God makes his covenant with the whole house of Israel and Judah, it won't be "... know/ ginosko the lord..." because every man will know/eido the Lord. I.e., the new covenant is about having a personal/ sensual experience... via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Under the old covenant, men only "knew" of God what they had been taught, ala ginosko. There was no holy spirit in dwelling under the old covenant. Their knowledge of God came from teaching the laws of the old covenant. So you have it backwards. I hope you can understand what I'm saying, and not think that I'm misconstruing things.
In simple terms:

Eido means to "know" something through an experience of the senses.
Ginosko means to "know" something through teaching or learning.

Be Blessed
The PuP

PesachPup said:

You have reversed the meanings that I posted for eido and ginosko.

Eido is that of an experience with the senses, of which I said, intimacy is one of many kinds of sensual experiences, along with seeing.
And ginosko is knowledge by intellectual assent, ala learning or teaching. In Hebrews 8:11, knowledge of God is/ was gained through the teaching of the law. The point made in that passage is, when God makes his covenant with the whole house of Israel and Judah, it won't be "... know/ ginosko the lord..." because every man will know/eido the Lord. I.e., the new covenant is about having a personal/ sensual experience... via the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Under the old covenant, men only "knew" of God what they had been taught, ala ginosko. There was no holy spirit in dwelling under the old covenant. Their knowledge of God came from teaching the laws of the old covenant. So you have it backwards. I hope you can understand what I'm saying, and not think that I'm misconstruing things.
In simple terms:

Eido means to "know" something through an experience of the senses.
Ginosko means to "know" something through teaching or learning.

Be Blessed
The PuP

Click to expand...

Sorry that I misconstrued what you were saying. I've been very busy lately. I'll try to do justice to the subject when I have more time. For what it's worth, I do not feel that the Old Covenant and New Covenant ways of knowing are different, and that one Greek word can be associated with one Covenant and the other Greek word associated with the other Covenant. But I'll get back when I can.