All about circumcision

ralliann said:

Which was to become a JEW.

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Not all Israelites were jews, only those from Judah and Benjamin.

ralliann said:

It was the ancient Church which associated it to circumcision in infant baptism.

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It was Jesus, when He allowed John the Baptist to baptize Him to fulfill all righteousness. And then Paul spoke of being baptized into His death.

ralliann said:

Well yes, lots of Churches do not baptize infants.
The new testament Gospel to the Gentiles fulfills the promise to Abraham , in the Gentiles.

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Yeah, there's all sorts of hullaballoo about baptism...oddly, most of the most contentious discussions take place among those churches that believe it's all just symbolic anyway for some odd reason.

Fervent said:

Not all Israelites were jews, only those from Judah and Benjamin.

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I used that term to indicate an Israelite already. Modern parlance of Jew, as in the testament is the same thing. The issue was The denial of the fullness of the promises made to Abraham concerning the nations.

ralliann said:

I used that term to indicate an Israelite already. Modern parlance of Jew, as in the testament is the same thing. The issue was The denial of the fullness of the promises made to Abraham concerning the nations.

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Modern parlance aside, it's not the same thing in the Bible. Jews are specifically members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, who belonged to the southern nation. Israelites are all 12 tribes, not simply the two southern tribes. In modern times the NT appears to confuse them because the northern tribes had been thoroughly adulterated to the point that there was ethnocentric bigotry towards the Samaritans who were considered impure due to losing their tribal identities and mixing with the conquering nations. There was no issue of denial of the fullness of the promises, the issue was about gatekeeping who the people of God were and maintaining a sense of superiority by sticking with a covenant that was designed to be temporary.

Fervent said:

Modern parlance aside, it's not the same thing in the Bible. Jews are specifically members of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin, who belonged to the southern nation.

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Jew's were AKA the circumcision.

Fervent said:

Israelites are all 12 tribes, not simply the two southern tribes.

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!0 tribes were Israel. All were the circumcision

Fervent said:

In modern times the NT appears to confuse them because the northern tribes had been thoroughly adulterated to the point that there was ethnocentric bigotry towards the Samaritans who were considered impure due to losing their tribal identities and mixing with the conquering nations. There was no issue of denial of the fullness of the promises, the issue was about gatekeeping who the people of God were and maintaining a sense of superiority by sticking with a covenant that was designed to be temporary.

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You were either a Jew, the circumcision, or not a Jew, the uncircumcision. That is their IDENTITY. None know their tribal identity today..

Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

ralliann said:

Paul was concerned about the law as a means of Salvation. Adult circumcision indebted law keeping. Circumcision was a distinct covenant before the law...It concerned the firstborn by choice.

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There are two main laws, the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 which is the description of sin and the law of Moses that contained all the animal sacrifices and ordinance for circumcision's and everything else that is not in the Ten Commandments Deut 31:24-26 which was the prescription for sin

The Ten Commandments started at Creation and God reveled this right in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:11 as they always came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12

ralliann said:

Adult circumcision indebts one to keep the WHOLE LAW.

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The Ten Commandments has nothing to do with circumcision Exo 20:1-17 and started way before the requirement of circumcision. I can goive you a study on circumcision and why it was needed, although already referenced it in my post, not sure if you read it.

ralliann said:

Circumcision among Jew's is by the fathers. It is a sign and a seal of Abraham's faith. The carnal command was disannulled in the new covenant to bring in non Jew's.

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Close and agree with most of this, but it never revealed what sin is. Circumcision was the entrance to get the cure for sin in the OT. The description of sin still remains in the NC - breaking the Ten Commandments 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 the cure is different instead of having the males in our family be circumcised so they could get access to the cure the animal sacrifices taken to Jerusalem- Jesus did away with that enmity at the Cross Col 2:11-14 but its still a sin to worship other gods, its still a sin to vain God's holy name, it's still a sin to bow to idols, its still a sin to break God's holy Sabbath day, its still a sin to murder our neighbor or covet, or break the least of these commandments as Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 but instead of taking an animal for a sacrifice, Jesus became our Passover Lamb and we can go to Him when we sin, which means sorry for breaking His law and sinning, confessing and repenting which means turning from sin, and walking in His Spirit who enables us to keep His commandments 1 John 3:24 John 14:15-18. If we are still rebelling and not allowing God to define God's law and what is Sin which He does, well I do not think that's the path we ought to be taking Pro 28:13 Mat 5:19 Mat 14:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 1 John 2:4 Rev 22:15 etc but He does give us free will

SabbathBlessings said:

There are two main laws, the Ten Commandments Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 which is the description of sin and the law of Moses that contained all the animal sacrifices and ordinance for circumcision's and everything else that is not in the Ten Commandments Deut 31:24-26 which was the prescription for sin

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The law prior to Moses was the law of faith. Moses law was a law of works...

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandments started at Creation and God reveled this right in the Ten Commandments Exo 20:11 as they always came in a unit of Ten Deut 4:13 Exo 34:28 breaking one we break them all James 2:11-12

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Whatever was of faith was inclusive to the covenant of Circumcision. It could not be abolished by a later covenant. God swore an oath.

SabbathBlessings said:

The Ten Commandments has nothing to do with circumcision Exo 20:1-17 and started way before the requirement of circumcision. I can goive you a study on circumcision and why it was needed, although already referenced it in my post, not sure if you read it.

Close and agree with most of this, but it never revealed what sin is. Circumcision was the entrance to get the cure for sin in the OT.

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Circumcision was a covenant. God did not make the covenant of Horeb with Abraham. Based upon the law of faith from the beginning. It was the covenant that brought them out of Egypt, gave them the Passocer, feast of unleavened bread, redemption of the firstborn. The sparing of their houses. A covenant of mercy.. Again, it was not, nor can these things be abolished by a later covenant.

SabbathBlessings said:

The description of sin still remains in the NC - breaking the Ten Commandments 1 John 3:4 James 2:11-12 Rom 7:7 Mat 5:19-30 the cure is different instead of having the males in our family be circumcised so they could get access to the cure the animal sacrifices taken to Jerusalem- Jesus did away with that enmity at the Cross Col 2:11-14 but its still a sin to worship other gods, its still a sin to vain God's holy name, it's still a sin to bow to idols, its still a sin to break God's holy Sabbath day, its still a sin to murder our neighbor or covet, or break the least of these commandments as Jesus taught Mat 5:19-30 but instead of taking an animal for a sacrifice, Jesus became our Passover Lamb and we can go to Him when we sin, which means sorry for breaking His law and sinning, confessing and repenting which means turning from sin, and walking in His Spirit who enables us to keep His commandments 1 John 3:24 John 14:15-18. If we are still rebelling and not allowing God to define God's law and what is Sin which He does, well I do not think that's the path we ought to be taking Pro 28:13 Mat 5:19 Mat 14:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 Mat 19:17-19 Heb 10:26-30 Mat 7:21-23 1 John 2:4 Rev 22:15 etc but He does give us free will

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Again Passover belongs to the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. As does the law of faith..
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

ralliann said:

The law prior to Moses was the law of faith. Moses law was a law of works...

Whatever was of faith was inclusive to the covenant of Circumcision. It could not be abolished by a later covenant. God swore an oath.

Circumcision was a covenant. God did not make the covenant of Horeb with Abraham. Based upon the law of faith from the beginning. It was the covenant that brought them out of Egypt, gave them the Passocer, feast of unleavened bread, redemption of the firstborn. The sparing of their houses. A covenant of mercy.. Again, it was not, nor can these things be abolished by a later covenant.

Again Passover belongs to the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision. As does the law of faith..
23 And he that doubteth is damned if he eat, because he eateth not of faith: for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.

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I find it hard to reason when someone uses their own words to address Scripture. I do not beleive they are the same. Can you please use Scripture, because your post did not address the Scriptures I posted and I find it not fruitful to debate someone who uses their own reasoning over what the Scriptures state.

ralliann said:

Jew's were AKA the circumcision.

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Jews were nationals of Judah, which was exclusively the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

ralliann said:

!0 tribes were Israel. All were the circumcision

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Nope, the 10 northern tribes are all but lost because they mixed with their Assyrian conquerors and developed into the Samaritans.

ralliann said:

You were either a Jew, the circumcision, or not a Jew, the uncircumcision. That is their IDENTITY. None know their tribal identity today..

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You speak of things you have no knowledge of. Most Jews are able to identify their tribe, which is either Benjamin or Judah. The 1st century attitudes do not render all of Israel Jews, nor does it speak to the entirety of circumcision and the various tensions that existed historically.

ralliann said:

Eph 2:11 ¶ Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

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What is this meant to prove, exactly?

Fervent said:

Jews were nationals of Judah, which was exclusively the tribes of Judah and Benjamin.

Nope, the 10 northern tribes are all but lost because they mixed with their Assyrian conquerors and developed into the Samaritans.

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They are not "lost". The uncircumcision were no longer JEWS/ISRAELITES.

Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.


Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

Paul as well as the other apostles spoke ot the circumcision, vs uncircumcision.


Ga 2:7 But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;
Php 3:3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

ralliann said:

They are not "lost". The uncircumcision were no longer JEWS/ISRAELITES.

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Jews are a specific subset of Israelites and don't exhaust the term, and Jesus seemed to recognize the heritage of the Samaritans as a distinct group that wasn't quite gentile but was outside of Judaism. But I suppose you know better.

Fervent said:

Jews are a specific subset of Israelites and don't exhaust the term, and Jesus seemed to recognize the heritage of the Samaritans as a distinct group that wasn't quite gentile but was outside of Judaism. But I suppose you know better.

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God says
Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Paul says
Ro 11:1 I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.

ralliann said:

God says
Ge 17:14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

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And this applies to the Samaritans how, exactly? You do realize they practiced circumcision, even though they were not Jews, correct?

Fervent said:

And this applies to the Samaritans how, exactly? You do realize they practiced circumcision, even though they were not Jews, correct?

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They are Samaritans, not Jew's not Israelites. Many Americans are circumcised as will. It did not make them Jew's. I had my son's circumcised. They are not Jew's. If they want to become Jew's, they can go and get ritually circumcised to be recognized as a Jew.

ralliann said:

They are Samaritans, not Jew's not Israelites. Many Americans are circumcised as will. It did not make them Jew's. I had my son's circumcised. They are not Jew's. If they want to become Jew's, they can go and get ritually circumcised to be recognized as a Jew.

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Not Jews, but the Samaritans are the descendents of the 10 northern tribes of Israel and follow the Torah which is precisely why they were circumcised in the same manner as the Jews. Jewish bigotry in the 1st century doesn't change their heritage, nor does it make Israel entirely comprised of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin(the Jews).

Fervent said:

Not Jews, but the Samaritans are the descendents of the 10 northern tribes of Israel and follow the Torah which is precisely why they were circumcised in the same manner as the Jews. Jewish bigotry in the 1st century doesn't change their heritage, nor does it make Israel entirely comprised of the tribes of Judah and Benjamin(the Jews).

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They have no tribal affiliation. They are not named on the breastplate of Judgment of the high priest. The representative agent whereby the appear before God. They beget Samarian children. They are not heirs within a tribe.
Ezek 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Daughters that become heirs keep with the tribe of their fathers in marriage

2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.
3 And if they be married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then shall their inheritance be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and shall be put to the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall it be taken from the lot of our inheritance. 4 And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.

4 And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.

JohnClay said:

Then there's this:
1 Samuel 18:25-27

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Dead men feel no pain.
Taking the foreskin of dead men, is like taking the sandals from their feet.
It was nothing, other than fulfilling a request which demonstrated that God was with him, and could deliver him, even from an army that would have been impossible to beat with just a few men.
David delivered double the amount to prove it.

JohnClay said:

I think the Bible is an interesting collection of very different things - like those insightful verses about circumcision after 8 days then what seems to be genocide in Deuteronomy 20:16-18 and vulgar parts like Ezekiel 23:20 (both of which I'm making a game about).

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Do you know why those "genocides" took place?
The Bible tells us what they were, and why God had them executed.
There were judgments, carried out to wipe out every trace of vile practices that could be spread, and every element that might raise its 'ugly' head in the future. Exodus 17:14-16; Deuteronomy 7:22-26; Deuteronomy 18:9-14; Deuteronomy 20:16-18

It's good the Bible gives us those "vulgar parts", since it's no different today, and we can learn from lessons of the past, without the need for personal, experience.
Here, God let's us know how he feels about prostitution, and the lust of the phallus.

One part of the Bible, I really like, that gives God's view, is Genesis 3:7, 21
So, when we see people in skimpy wear, we don't need to guess if we ought to follow suit.

JohnClay said:

I haven't read it cover to cover and still find new interesting things from time to time.

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I hope you do eventually read it cover to cover, but at the same time, I hope you do get help studying it, because, reading it through, and not understanding its messages, leaves us as if we haven't read it, even though we started from Genesis, and went through to Revelation.

JohnClay said:

I think it's good that people faithfully pass the Bible text down rather than removing the parts that seem problematic.

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I agree.
That's one very powerful proof of its authenticity.
I was reading a passage the other day... I don't remember it now, but I was thinking, Wow. If a religious people did this, they would not record it for everyone to read and see that they were really so disobedient... but it's all there.
Nothing was hidden/

So, there is the scientific and historical accuracy, the candor, the reliability, as seen in fulfilled prophecy, and the practicality, and there remains the criticism, of course.
However, millions of people who accept the Bible as divinely inspired, started out as critics of it.
That's the beauty of knowledge. It increases.

About circumcision, though, I was not aware of all the benefits mentioned by the CDC.
Highly intelligent people know that we grow in knowledge, and understanding, and over the years, so much has come to light that agrees with the Bible, and one would think that more people would consider taking up the Bible, with the consideration that God is.
In reality, though, human nature tend more toward pride than toward humility.
We humans are a work in progress. For this, I appreciate God's patience. 2 Peter 3:9

Not to swing off topic... I was wondering... are you using a game engine to make your game, or coding?

ralliann said:

They have no tribal affiliation. They are not named on the breastplate of Judgment of the high priest. The representative agent whereby the appear before God. They beget Samarian children. They are not heirs within a tribe.
Ezek 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.

Daughters that become heirs keep with the tribe of their fathers in marriage

2 And they said, The LORD commanded my lord to give the land for an inheritance by lot to the children of Israel: and my lord was commanded by the LORD to give the inheritance of Zelophehad our brother unto his daughters.
3 And if they be married to any of the sons of the other tribes of the children of Israel, then shall their inheritance be taken from the inheritance of our fathers, and shall be put to the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall it be taken from the lot of our inheritance. 4 And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.

4 And when the jubile of the children of Israel shall be, then shall their inheritance be put unto the inheritance of the tribe whereunto they are received: so shall their inheritance be taken away from the inheritance of the tribe of our fathers.

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They may have lost their tribal identities due to the Assyrian occupation, but that doesn't alter the fact that Israel is more than just the tribes of Judah and Benjamin that make up the Jews. Ephraim and Mannasseh are just as much Israelites as Judah and Benjamin regardless of 1st century bigotry among the Jews.

@JohnClay, is this subforum for debating Christian Theology, or addressing non-Christian Seekers asking questions about those aspects of the Christian faith which seem hard to understand or accept?
You'd better take reign of the thread, before it runs "Helter Skelter" into a never ending theological 'boxing match' about the Ten Commandments.

Fervent said:

They may have lost their tribal identities due to the Assyrian occupation, but that doesn't alter the fact that Israel is more than just the tribes of Judah and Benjamin that make up the Jews. Ephraim and Mannasseh are just as much Israelites as Judah and Benjamin regardless of 1st century bigotry among the Jews.

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You don't "lose" it. Samaritans never had tribal identity. They are SAMARITANS. The twelve tribes each were given a portion of inheritance, from their fathers. The twelve patriarchs.. Either you are an heir or you are not. The entire nation enjoys the fulness of the blessing together benefitting from the blessings of each tribe together.

ralliann said:

You don't "lose" it. Samaritans never had tribal identity. They are SAMARITANS. The twelve tribes each were given a portion of inheritance, from their fathers. The twelve patriarchs.. Either you are an heir or you are not. The entire nation enjoys the fulness of the blessing together benefitting from the blessings of each tribe together.

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You do realize Samaria was the capital of Israel(the northern nation), do you not? The Samaritans lost their ability to identify specific tribes because they were thoroughly occupied by Assyria for hundreds of years but they remained the descendents of the 10 tribes that made up Israel(the northern kingdom) which had Samaria as its capital.