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Is Joanna Luke's Key Witness?

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I came across this recent podcast episode from Christian apologist, Frank Turek, where he interviews Shane Rosenthal about his new book, "Luke's Key Witness."

The new book posits that some evidence may point to Joanna, who was a disciple of Jesus during His 1st advent, as being one of the people from whom Luke drew information for his Gospel. I found this interesting and hadn't heard it before, so I'm posting it here in case any of the rest of you would like to listen in on the discussion. (The video is set at the 12:30 minute mark because that's where the main conversation for the book actually picks up].

Who is Luke's Key Witness? with Shane Rosenthal​


 

The Liturgist

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No, it was St. Paul, according to the Early Church Fathers, whose account of the history of the Gospels I trust more than contemporary opinions, which are basically well-educated guesses, but as I see it, one would have to show the Patristic account of a Pauline provenance to St. Luke’s narration to be wrong as part of creating a compelling alternate case.

This is not to say St. Luke did not have other sources, for example, the Theotokos, whose physician he was (St. Luke was also one of the Seventy, like St. Mark, who was the owner of the Cenacle where the last supper was held; there are two possible locations for this, one popularized by the Crusaders who built an impressive gothic church there, disputed with the Muslims and the Jews, who claim it is the tomb of St. David (and I think they’re right), and another which is a humble building containing a Syriac Orthodox monastery and the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, which I suspect is the real deal.
 
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No, it was St. Paul, according to the Early Church Fathers, whose account of the history of the Gospels I trust more than contemporary opinions, which are basically well-educated guesses, but as I see it, one would have to show the Patristic account of a Pauline provenance to St. Luke’s narration to be wrong as part of creating a compelling alternate case.
The thing is, someone who engages Historiography and not just Hagiography will go beyond mere Church Tradition to find evidences for which the Church in earlier times may have never known about. That's just how historical investigation works.
This is not to say St. Luke did not have other sources, for example, the Theotokos, whose physician he was (St. Luke was also one of the Seventy, like St. Mark, who was the owner of the Cenacle where the last supper was held; there are two possible locations for this, one popularized by the Crusaders who built an impressive gothic church there, disputed with the Muslims and the Jews, who claim it is the tomb of St. David (and I think they’re right), and another which is a humble building containing a Syriac Orthodox monastery and the Syriac Orthodox Patriarch of Jerusalem, which I suspect is the real deal.

None of this addresses whether or not the contents in the video are correct or not. All you're expressing here is that you have a dislike for their current avenue of study. Expressing yourself in this way doesn't show that you're correct or that they're utterly incorrect.

The truth is, we don't know that Joanna was a source, but as a historically minded philosopher who understands how historical investigation works, I can see how Joanna could have been one of the sources, in addition to Paul and who knows how many other Christians still living in the later 1st century.
 
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The Liturgist

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The thing is, someone who engages Historiography and not just Hagiography will go beyond mere Church Tradition to find evidences for which the Church in earlier times may have never known about.

Keyword “may.”

Also I’m not talking about Hagiography but about historical documents by the early church; dismissing all Patristic writing as Hagiographic is simply wrong, and it also results in discarding all of the doctrinally orthodox Christian writers about Christianity, so one is left with texts by heretics like the Valentinians, Ophites and Manicheans, and texts by non-Christians.

Interestingly a small minority of Patristic writing can be regarded as Hagiographic, primarily hymns about the martyrs and the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the vast majority of these postdate the fifth century.

The only major Patristic writings we could regard as hagiographic outside the realm of the martyrologies, synaxaria and so on, which I was not referring to, by the way, are works such as The Life of Anthony by St. Athanasius. However, calling this hagiographic is misleading, since while this work contributed to the veneration of St. Anthony and St. Paul the Hermit and the Desert Fathers as saints, it was not composed after they were already venerated; furthermore, St. Athanasius can be regarded as a reliable historical source because he was protodeacon and later patriarch of the Church of Alexandria for most of St. Anthony’s life, with personal knowledge of him, and thus firsthand information, and also he happens to have been the primary defender of the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arius at Nicaea, instrumental in the development of the first recension of the Nicene Creed (additionally, the Athanasian Creed, while not written by St. Athanasius, is a later synthesis of two of his writings on the Incarnation and the Trinity, thus two of the three historic creeds, including the initial recension of the most important one, resulted from his work (and St. Gregory the Theologian initially convened the Council of Constantinople, which revised the Nicene Creed to the current version, and was, like the other Cappadocians, a correspondant with and ally of St. Athanasius).

Finally, St. Athanasius in 367 AD promulgated his 39th Paschal Encyclical, containing the date of Easter calculated according to the formula adopted across the entire church at Nicaea, also included a New Testament canon for the Church of Alexandria, which was adopted by all other churches, even those which at the time were leaning towards a narrower or broader canon (the Syriac Peshitta had a 22 book New Testament lacking Revelation, Jude, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, but the Syriac Orthodox church added the missing books in the sixth century and they were later recognized as canonical by the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox version of the Peshitta is the one used by the Maronite Catholics who separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism centuries before entering into communion with Rome, and whose liturgy and that of the Syriac Orthodox and a few other related churches is called “the West Syriac liturgy”; before ill-advised reforms after Vatican II, much of it was identical to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy. Conversely, two of the three ancient Alexandrian text type Bibles, the Codex Sinaitcus and Codex Alexandrinus) contain additional New Testament books that were either Patristic rather than Apostolic (such as 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas) or psuedepigraphical forgeries (2 Clement, 1 Barnabas). Thus we have St. Athanasius to thank for the 27 book standard we enjoy, and this gives his Life of Anthony a level of credibility that exceeds that most hagiographic text.

Also it may surprise you to know that the Orthodox and Roman Catholics both are aware of errors and duplications in hagiography, for example, the Copts regard their Synaxarion as less reliable than the Ethiopian, because, for example, it confuses the church historian Eusebius of Caesarea, venerated by their sister church the Syriac Orthodox as a saint, with the sinister Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, who did not attend Nicaea but instead ingratiated himself in court life, baptizing St. Constantine on his deathbed and persuading his son Constantius to convert to Arianism and begin an ongoing persecution of Christians that would last until 386 AD in the Roman government, and later, after the Christian emperor Theodosius (the first Christian since St. Constantine, or if you prefer, and I don’t, the first Christian not tainted by the heresy of Arianism, which I regard as so heretical as to make someone a non-Christian, and that is also the position of the CF statement of faith if memory serves, that non-Trinitarians are regarded as non-Christian, since the doctrine of the Incarnation really is essential to Christianity) was persuaded by a vigil orchestrated by St. Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, to not turn over a parish church in Milan to the Arians in the interests of avoiding ciivl unrest (which in the event, did not happen, so St. Theodosius nearly gave away a Christian church to the 4th century equivalent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for no reason). After that point however, Gothic tribes who had been converted to Arianism by Arian missionaries were involved in the repeated sacking of Rome, the later conquest of Italy by the Ostrogoths, and then the Visigoths of North Africa converted to Islam and were involved in the genocide against all African Christians outside of Egypt and Ethiopia.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Keyword “may.”

Also I’m not talking about Hagiography but about historical documents by the early church; dismissing all Patristic writing as Hagiographic is simply wrong, and it also results in discarding all of the doctrinally orthodox Christian writers about Christianity, so one is left with texts by heretics like the Valentinians, Ophites and Manicheans, and texts by non-Christians.

Interestingly a small minority of Patristic writing can be regarded as Hagiographic, primarily hymns about the martyrs and the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the vast majority of these postdate the fifth century.

The only major Patristic writings we could regard as hagiographic outside the realm of the martyrologies, synaxaria and so on, which I was not referring to, by the way, are works such as The Life of Anthony by St. Athanasius. However, calling this hagiographic is misleading, since while this work contributed to the veneration of St. Anthony and St. Paul the Hermit and the Desert Fathers as saints, it was not composed after they were already venerated; furthermore, St. Athanasius can be regarded as a reliable historical source because he was protodeacon and later patriarch of the Church of Alexandria for most of St. Anthony’s life, with personal knowledge of him, and thus firsthand information, and also he happens to have been the primary defender of the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arius at Nicaea, instrumental in the development of the first recension of the Nicene Creed (additionally, the Athanasian Creed, while not written by St. Athanasius, is a later synthesis of two of his writings on the Incarnation and the Trinity, thus two of the three historic creeds, including the initial recension of the most important one, resulted from his work (and St. Gregory the Theologian initially convened the Council of Constantinople, which revised the Nicene Creed to the current version, and was, like the other Cappadocians, a correspondant with and ally of St. Athanasius).

Finally, St. Athanasius in 367 AD promulgated his 39th Paschal Encyclical, containing the date of Easter calculated according to the formula adopted across the entire church at Nicaea, also included a New Testament canon for the Church of Alexandria, which was adopted by all other churches, even those which at the time were leaning towards a narrower or broader canon (the Syriac Peshitta had a 22 book New Testament lacking Revelation, Jude, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, but the Syriac Orthodox church added the missing books in the sixth century and they were later recognized as canonical by the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox version of the Peshitta is the one used by the Maronite Catholics who separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism centuries before entering into communion with Rome, and whose liturgy and that of the Syriac Orthodox and a few other related churches is called “the West Syriac liturgy”; before ill-advised reforms after Vatican II, much of it was identical to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy. Conversely, two of the three ancient Alexandrian text type Bibles, the Codex Sinaitcus and Codex Alexandrinus) contain additional New Testament books that were either Patristic rather than Apostolic (such as 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas) or psuedepigraphical forgeries (2 Clement, 1 Barnabas). Thus we have St. Athanasius to thank for the 27 book standard we enjoy, and this gives his Life of Anthony a level of credibility that exceeds that most hagiographic text.

Also it may surprise you to know that the Orthodox and Roman Catholics both are aware of errors and duplications in hagiography, for example, the Copts regard their Synaxarion as less reliable than the Ethiopian, because, for example, it confuses the church historian Eusebius of Caesarea, venerated by their sister church the Syriac Orthodox as a saint, with the sinister Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, who did not attend Nicaea but instead ingratiated himself in court life, baptizing St. Constantine on his deathbed and persuading his son Constantius to convert to Arianism and begin an ongoing persecution of Christians that would last until 386 AD in the Roman government, and later, after the Christian emperor Theodosius (the first Christian since St. Constantine, or if you prefer, and I don’t, the first Christian not tainted by the heresy of Arianism, which I regard as so heretical as to make someone a non-Christian, and that is also the position of the CF statement of faith if memory serves, that non-Trinitarians are regarded as non-Christian, since the doctrine of the Incarnation really is essential to Christianity) was persuaded by a vigil orchestrated by St. Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, to not turn over a parish church in Milan to the Arians in the interests of avoiding ciivl unrest (which in the event, did not happen, so St. Theodosius nearly gave away a Christian church to the 4th century equivalent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for no reason). After that point however, Gothic tribes who had been converted to Arianism by Arian missionaries were involved in the repeated sacking of Rome, the later conquest of Italy by the Ostrogoths, and then the Visigoths of North Africa converted to Islam and were involved in the genocide against all African Christians outside of Egypt and Ethiopia.

What is this thread about, Liturgist? You're going off on some tangent, attempting to show your 'superior' acumen. I don't appreciate that, and I suggest you play that game somewhere else.

Do you have a view about what is being talked about regarding how Luke possibly signifies the testimonial role of Joanna in his gospel..........or not?

I don't want to see a miasma of other historical or eccesiological data points (or opinions) that have little to do with the focus of the OP.
Keyword “may.”

Also I’m not talking about Hagiography but about historical documents by the early church; dismissing all Patristic writing as Hagiographic is simply wrong, and it also results in discarding all of the doctrinally orthodox Christian writers about Christianity, so one is left with texts by heretics like the Valentinians, Ophites and Manicheans, and texts by non-Christians.

Interestingly a small minority of Patristic writing can be regarded as Hagiographic, primarily hymns about the martyrs and the Blessed Virgin Mary, and the vast majority of these postdate the fifth century.

The only major Patristic writings we could regard as hagiographic outside the realm of the martyrologies, synaxaria and so on, which I was not referring to, by the way, are works such as The Life of Anthony by St. Athanasius. However, calling this hagiographic is misleading, since while this work contributed to the veneration of St. Anthony and St. Paul the Hermit and the Desert Fathers as saints, it was not composed after they were already venerated; furthermore, St. Athanasius can be regarded as a reliable historical source because he was protodeacon and later patriarch of the Church of Alexandria for most of St. Anthony’s life, with personal knowledge of him, and thus firsthand information, and also he happens to have been the primary defender of the doctrine of the Incarnation against Arius at Nicaea, instrumental in the development of the first recension of the Nicene Creed (additionally, the Athanasian Creed, while not written by St. Athanasius, is a later synthesis of two of his writings on the Incarnation and the Trinity, thus two of the three historic creeds, including the initial recension of the most important one, resulted from his work (and St. Gregory the Theologian initially convened the Council of Constantinople, which revised the Nicene Creed to the current version, and was, like the other Cappadocians, a correspondant with and ally of St. Athanasius).

Finally, St. Athanasius in 367 AD promulgated his 39th Paschal Encyclical, containing the date of Easter calculated according to the formula adopted across the entire church at Nicaea, also included a New Testament canon for the Church of Alexandria, which was adopted by all other churches, even those which at the time were leaning towards a narrower or broader canon (the Syriac Peshitta had a 22 book New Testament lacking Revelation, Jude, 2 John, 3 John and 2 Peter, but the Syriac Orthodox church added the missing books in the sixth century and they were later recognized as canonical by the Assyrian Church of the East, and the Syriac Orthodox version of the Peshitta is the one used by the Maronite Catholics who separated from the Syriac Orthodox in a schism centuries before entering into communion with Rome, and whose liturgy and that of the Syriac Orthodox and a few other related churches is called “the West Syriac liturgy”; before ill-advised reforms after Vatican II, much of it was identical to the Syriac Orthodox liturgy. Conversely, two of the three ancient Alexandrian text type Bibles, the Codex Sinaitcus and Codex Alexandrinus) contain additional New Testament books that were either Patristic rather than Apostolic (such as 1 Clement and the Shepherd of Hermas) or psuedepigraphical forgeries (2 Clement, 1 Barnabas). Thus we have St. Athanasius to thank for the 27 book standard we enjoy, and this gives his Life of Anthony a level of credibility that exceeds that most hagiographic text.

Also it may surprise you to know that the Orthodox and Roman Catholics both are aware of errors and duplications in hagiography, for example, the Copts regard their Synaxarion as less reliable than the Ethiopian, because, for example, it confuses the church historian Eusebius of Caesarea, venerated by their sister church the Syriac Orthodox as a saint, with the sinister Arian bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, who did not attend Nicaea but instead ingratiated himself in court life, baptizing St. Constantine on his deathbed and persuading his son Constantius to convert to Arianism and begin an ongoing persecution of Christians that would last until 386 AD in the Roman government, and later, after the Christian emperor Theodosius (the first Christian since St. Constantine, or if you prefer, and I don’t, the first Christian not tainted by the heresy of Arianism, which I regard as so heretical as to make someone a non-Christian, and that is also the position of the CF statement of faith if memory serves, that non-Trinitarians are regarded as non-Christian, since the doctrine of the Incarnation really is essential to Christianity) was persuaded by a vigil orchestrated by St. Ambrose, the bishop of Milan, to not turn over a parish church in Milan to the Arians in the interests of avoiding ciivl unrest (which in the event, did not happen, so St. Theodosius nearly gave away a Christian church to the 4th century equivalent of the Jehovah’s Witnesses for no reason). After that point however, Gothic tribes who had been converted to Arianism by Arian missionaries were involved in the repeated sacking of Rome, the later conquest of Italy by the Ostrogoths, and then the Visigoths of North Africa converted to Islam and were involved in the genocide against all African Christians outside of Egypt and Ethiopia.

Why would it surprise me? What I am surprised about is how easily you go off on long, laborious tangents that have little or nothing to do with the OP topic. Now, that surprises me.
 
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Lukaris

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It has been basic understanding though that Luke was evangelized by Paul. A quick AI search says there is a theory that Joanna is also Junia mentioned by Paul in Romans I think. It seems pretty thin & my break is over.
 
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The Liturgist

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You're going off on some tangent, attempting to show your 'superior' acumen.

Not true, I’m outlining a problem with their hypothesis insofar as it contradicts with Patristic history, not an insurmountable one, but one which you should I think address rather than merely dismissing it as hagiography.

To show it was Joanna who was St. Luke’s source of information, we would need to exclude other possible candidates, particularly those the early church said were his sources (St. Paul and the Theotokos, and possibly St. John).

If they did not even address the Patristic claim in their video, I would regard that as a red flag, for the ancient accounts of church history have always been that St. Matthew and St. John based their gospels on personal experience, whereas St. Mark relied on very limited personal experience and the narrative of St. Peter, and St. Luke relied on the narrative of St. Paul, and was also the physician od the Theotokos. This claim is repeated in many sources throughout the Patristic corpus, and before accepting a new idea I want to know why the old one is to be rejected.
 
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Not true, I’m outlining a problem with their hypothesis insofar as it contradicts with Patristic history, not an insurmountable one, but one which you should I think address rather than merely dismissing it as hagiography.

To show it was Joanna who was St. Luke’s source of information, we would need to exclude other possible candidates, particularly those the early church said were his sources (St. Paul and the Theotokos, and possibly St. John).

If they did not even address the Patristic claim in their video, I would regard that as a red flag, for the ancient accounts of church history have always been that St. Matthew and St. John based their gospels on personal experience, whereas St. Mark relied on very limited personal experience and the narrative of St. Peter, and St. Luke relied on the narrative of St. Paul, and was also the physician od the Theotokos. This claim is repeated in many sources throughout the Patristic corpus, and before accepting a new idea I want to know why the old one is to be rejected.

Did you even listen to the video content?

Who cares about Shane Rosenthal's main thesis? I don't.

The main interior point here for me is the small way in which our modern historical, literary and linguistic studies pertaining to the historiographical structure of Luke's work might be aided by realizing that Joanna may have been a "source" [i.e. one source of many] for Luke in his writing. She would be just one source. She doesn't even have to be the main or prominent source. But I take today's historical analyses OVER those of the past, and then I work from there. Not the other way around.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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It has been basic understanding though that Luke was evangelized by Paul. A quick AI search says there is a theory that Joanna is also Junia mentioned by Paul in Romans I think. It seems pretty thin & my break is over.

This thread is not some hidden attempt to inject 'women's authority' into leadership. I hope that is very, very clear at this point. No, this thread is purely about source criticism.
 
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Lukaris

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This thread is not some hidden attempt to inject 'women's authority' into leadership. I hope that is very, very clear at this point. No, this thread is purely about source criticism.
I didn’t think that and I think subconsciously a lot of my perceptions of Paul & Luke have been cemented by the 2017 movie: Paul, Apostle of Christ. Priscilla and Aquila are also powerful supporting figures in the movie.
 
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I didn’t think that and I think subconsciously a lot of my perceptions of Paul & Luke have been cemented by the 2017 movie: Paul, Apostle of Christ. Priscilla and Aquila are also powerful supporting figures in the movie.

I see your point, but even though I've seen that movie and I liked it as far as 'Christian cinema' attempts to animate any possible historical inferences we might dare to make, I'm not motivated by any of that, and this thread doesn't hold an analogous line of thought to that. No, I'm only interested in the literary historiographical structures. I take nothing for granted.

Rather, I'm motivated by seeing all of critical biblical studies as the necessary 400 meter hurdle race I personally have to get through and over for my ongoing belief in Christ to retain its dynamism. However, I understand that other, fellow Christians might not have the same need for historical inquiry and philosophical analysis where theology is concerned, but the Lord gives us each our gifts and burdens as He sees fit to do.
 
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I heard that when it aired and thought it was intriguing. Realistically, Luke's gospel was written some 20 years after Paul died. Not to mention the fact that Paul never met Jesus and knew pretty much nothing about his ministry. Luke relied on at least Mark, the Q source, and the source known as L. If he was relying on living eyewitnesses when he wrote his gospel, Paul wasn't one of them. Joanna may well have been.
 
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This thread is not some hidden attempt to inject 'women's authority' into leadership. I hope that is very, very clear at this point. No, this thread is purely about source criticism.

I listened to about 15 minutes of the video, starting at your bookmark. Identifying Joanna as one of Luke's sources seems as plausible a guess as any, especially if there's evidence that there is a Joanna who is a granddaughter of a Theophilus, thus linking the two.

Alas, it's hard to skim videos the way one might skim an article. Does Rosenthal get more specific in the last 20 minutes of the video? If Joanna is a source, then that would make her either a) one of the authors of the Q material -- that is, one of the people who wrote down Jesus' sayings in a document or collection of documents that Luke and Matthew both used; or, b) one of the authors of the Luke-specific stories, who might have transmitted the stories to Luke either orally or in writing. Does Rosenthal make a guess on this?
 
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I heard that when it aired and thought it was intriguing. Realistically, Luke's gospel was written some 20 years after Paul died. Not to mention the fact that Paul never met Jesus and knew pretty much nothing about his ministry. Luke relied on at least Mark, the Q source, and the source known as L. If he was relying on living eyewitnesses when he wrote his gospel, Paul wasn't one of them. Joanna may well have been.

It is possible that Joanna was one of the sources for Luke. He is the only one who mentions her among the four Gospels, and I'm thinking he either knew of her, or was able to correspond and/or speak with her. However, I'm sort of wondering why you don't think Luke would have had access to Paul or as to why Paul couldn't have known about Jesus' ministry.

Which sources are you drawing from to reach your present view on Luke's gospel and Acts regarding Paul's role or his lack thereof as a possible source?
 
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I listened to about 15 minutes of the video, starting at your bookmark. Identifying Joanna as one of Luke's sources seems as plausible a guess as any, especially if there's evidence that there is a Joanna who is a granddaughter of a Theophilus, thus linking the two.

Alas, it's hard to skim videos the way one might skim an article. Does Rosenthal get more specific in the last 20 minutes of the video? If Joanna is a source, then that would make her either a) one of the authors of the Q material -- that is, one of the people who wrote down Jesus' sayings in a document or collection of documents that Luke and Matthew both used; or, b) one of the authors of the Luke-specific stories, who might have transmitted the stories to Luke either orally or in writing. Does Rosenthal make a guess on this?

Unfortunately, this video is more or less an 'advo' for Rosenthal's upcoming book and neither he nor Frank Turek get very specific in definitively explaining any details about the two possibilities that you mention. But I do find the details they do give about Joanna's possible relation to Herod's court and to Theophilus to be of some historiographical interest, despite the fact that the actual evidences are minimal.

Thanks for asking and offering some useful inferences for us to think about.
 
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It is possible that Joanna was one of the sources for Luke. He is the only one who mentions her among the four Gospels, and I'm thinking he either knew of her, or was able to correspond and/or speak with her. However, I'm sort of wondering why you don't think Luke would have had access to Paul or as to why Paul couldn't have known about Jesus' ministry.

Which sources are you drawing from to reach your present view on Luke's gospel and Acts regarding Paul's role or his lack thereof as a possible source?
Well, Paul died circa 62 AD and the most plausible date for Luke's gospel is the mid-80's. There is substantial doubt that the Luke who was the companion of Paul was the Luke to whom the Gospel and Acts are attributed. Paul clearly never met Jesus or participated in his ministry, so he certainly wasn't an eyewitness. Paul says In Galatians he got his gospel from no one, but by direct personal revelation. His letters are utterly silent on anything Jesus said or did. He surely did speak with some like James and Peter who had known Jesus, but I see no reason to think he was a source for Luke when Luke had Mark, the Q source, the L source and people who actually were eyewitnesses.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, Paul died circa 62 AD and the most plausible date for Luke's gospel is the mid-80's. There is substantial doubt that the Luke who was the companion of Paul was the Luke to whom the Gospel and Acts are attributed. Paul clearly never met Jesus or participated in his ministry, so he certainly wasn't an eyewitness. Paul says In Galatians he got his gospel from no one, but by direct personal revelation. His letters are utterly silent on anything Jesus said or did. He surely did speak with some like James and Peter who had known Jesus, but I see no reason to think he was a source for Luke when Luke had Mark, the Q source, the L source and people who actually were eyewitnesses.

Ok. I'm fairly conversant with the different positions and the attending arguments for dating various books of the New Testament, as well as those pertaining to their reported authenticity, and I understand your position. But I was briefly interested in the sources that you may be using at present by which you're reaching your evaluations since I don't claim to have a comprehensive critical view on redaction and source criticism.

If you don't want to share two or three of those, that's fine. I won't throw a tantrum. I just happen to think a little differently than you due to my engagement of Historiography and the Philosophy of History, in tandem with other academic fields, and I thought I might briefly compare your source notes with mine (without any ensuing egregious arguing over it.) ;)

Peace.
 
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David Lamb

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Well, Paul died circa 62 AD and the most plausible date for Luke's gospel is the mid-80's. There is substantial doubt that the Luke who was the companion of Paul was the Luke to whom the Gospel and Acts are attributed. Paul clearly never met Jesus or participated in his ministry, so he certainly wasn't an eyewitness. Paul says In Galatians he got his gospel from no one, but by direct personal revelation. His letters are utterly silent on anything Jesus said or did. He surely did speak with some like James and Peter who had known Jesus, but I see no reason to think he was a source for Luke when Luke had Mark, the Q source, the L source and people who actually were eyewitnesses.
Yet Paul refers to Luke as the "beloved physician" (what we would call a doctor), and the gospel of Luke includes evidence of having been penned by a medical man. He alone includes the words, "Physician heal thyself." Concern healing, he alon describes a fever as "a high fever":

“Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon’s house. But Simon’s wife’s mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her.” (Lu 4:38 NKJV)

I believe the same Luke who penned the gospel of Luke and Acts accompanied Paul.
 
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HBP

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Yet Paul refers to Luke as the "beloved physician" (what we would call a doctor), and the gospel of Luke includes evidence of having been penned by a medical man. He alone includes the words, "Physician heal thyself." Concern healing, he alon describes a fever as "a high fever":

“Now He arose from the synagogue and entered Simon’s house. But Simon’s wife’s mother was sick with a high fever, and they made request of Him concerning her.” (Lu 4:38 NKJV)

I believe the same Luke who penned the gospel of Luke and Acts accompanied Paul.
I agree that's entirely possible. Although Acts and Paul's letters don't mesh perfectly, when Luke wrote Acts he obviously would have had his time with Paul as a key source. My point was just that when he wrote his Gospel, Paul was long dead and not an eyewitness to anything the earthly Jesus said or did anyway, so I don't see him as a likely source for the Gospel. I've never really dived into the debate as to whether we're talking about two different Lukes. The way Acts ends so abruptly is certainly odd any way we look at it.
 
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