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CRISPR used to remove extra chromosomes in Down syndrome and restore cell function

The IbanezerScrooge

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Ophiolite

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I would think science could care less about ethics as long as what they are doing, advances science.
That is a sad, poorly considered, boorish remark. You have taken the (demonstrable) observation that there have been some scientists who have behaved unethically and extended it, implicitly, to apply to all scientists. That is illogical, seemingly agenda driven, and comes across as snide. Since you feel ethics is important, do you think that is an ethical way to behave?
 
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d taylor

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That is a sad, poorly considered, boorish remark. You have taken the (demonstrable) observation that there have been some scientists who have behaved unethically and extended it, implicitly, to apply to all scientists. That is illogical, seemingly agenda driven, and comes across as snide. Since you feel ethics is important, do you think that is an ethical way to behave?
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I do not know any scientist and any acts they have done. My statement is based of of that most scientist are atheist and do not have a higher power they they are accountable (except a countries laws) to. So why should they place any ethnic views above their work as long as it remains within the law of their country and advances science.
 
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The IbanezerScrooge

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I do not know any scientist and any acts they have done. My statement is based of of that most scientist are atheist
Apart from being irrelevant, this is just statistically incorrect. While atheists among scientists is higher than the general population it's still skewed toward those who practice religion.
and do not have a higher power they they are accountable (except a countries laws) to. So why should they place any ethnic views above their work as long as it remains within the law of their country and advances science.
Do you genuinely believe that atheists are less ethical because they don't believe in a god?
 
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Hans Blaster

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I do not know any scientist and any acts they have done.
Perhaps disparaging a group out of ignorance isn't the best move.
My statement is based of of that most scientist are atheist and do not have a higher power they they are accountable (except a countries laws) to.
Most scientists are not atheists, nor would that matter on the question of ethics.
So why should they place any ethnic views above their work as long as it remains within the law of their country and advances science.
Ethnicity also has nothing to do with anything.
 
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sjastro

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I do not know any scientist and any acts they have done. My statement is based of of that most scientist are atheist and do not have a higher power they they are accountable (except a countries laws) to. So why should they place any ethnic views above their work as long as it remains within the law of their country and advances science.
In 1796 Edward Jenner an Anglican, had developed the smallpox vaccine from cowpox.
Jenner was condemned using the so called ethical views of some conservative Christians of the time ranging from smallpox being a punishment from God that no man should undo, to Jenner indirectly practicing a form of bestiality.

Like the views of these conservative Christians don't confuse your own ignorance and bigotry towards scientists as being an ethnic[sic] view.
 
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Hans Blaster

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I'm wondering when in the human growth cycle this procedure would be done. I couldn't figure that out from the article.
It's currently a laboratory exercise -- to see if trisomy 21 cells can function normally and not overproduce the products of the genes on chromosome 21. I suspect if it became a treatment it would be applied after diagnosis as infants to reduce, but not eliminate, the impact of that overactivity on further development.
 
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Ophiolite

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I do not know any scientist and any acts they have done. My statement is based of of that most scientist are atheist and do not have a higher power they they are accountable (except a countries laws) to. So why should they place any ethnic views above their work as long as it remains within the law of their country and advances science.
Contrary to your curiously skewed views on the origin and character of atheists' ethics, varied as they, are many atheists hold to high standards. This is arguably even more the case with scientists, whose practice of critical thinking and above average education will tend to guide them towards high ethical standards. I would like to say more, but I am constrained by forum guidelines. I suggest your flawed view is based on a faulty premise.
 
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linux.poet

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Contrary to your curiously skewed views on the origin and character of atheists' ethics, varied as they, are many atheists hold to high standards. This is arguably even more the case with scientists, whose practice of critical thinking and above average education will tend to guide them towards high ethical standards. I would like to say more, but I am constrained by forum guidelines. I suggest your flawed view is based on a faulty premise.
The famous Milligram experiments suggest otherwise, though that was a select application of resistance to corrupt human authority.

Belief in God or other religion was frequently cited by study participants as the reason why they would not submit to corrupt human authority and go all the way into the final level of the experiment which was the equivalent of killing someone.

Ordinary life has numerous checks and balances against human (sin nature) corruption: laws, complex political systems, economic systems, and scientific ethics. Strip that away, and eradicate religious belief along with it, and we’re nothing but murderers.

Simon Sinek cites this experiment in Leaders Eat Last under the Chapter “Abstraction Kills”, and while he has a degree in anthropology and is qualified to discuss this one,



In context, however, a negative emotional reaction based on morals is far from warranted here. Would you leave a child to suffer from Down’s Syndrome if the additional chromosome could be removed, letting them have a normal life? I don’t think I would think twice about it. Curing a disease is not an immoral action.
 
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Bradskii

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Belief in God or other religion was frequently cited by study participants as the reason why they would not submit to corrupt human authority and go all the way into the final level of the experiment which was the equivalent of killing someone.
I've not been able to find any information on this. Can you you tell me where it came from?
 
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Hans Blaster

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The famous Milligram experiments suggest otherwise, though that was a select application of resistance to corrupt human authority.

Belief in God or other religion was frequently cited by study participants as the reason why they would not submit to corrupt human authority and go all the way into the final level of the experiment which was the equivalent of killing someone.
Even the ridiculous disparagement of scientific ethics in post #2 had nothing to do with corrupt orders and authoritarian orders. That isn't how science is organized in the first place.
Ordinary life has numerous checks and balances against human (sin nature) corruption: laws, complex political systems, economic systems, and scientific ethics. Strip that away, and eradicate religious belief along with it, and we’re nothing but murderers.
I don't know why you think we would respond to such an inflammatory claim.
Simon Sinek cites this experiment in Leaders Eat Last under the Chapter “Abstraction Kills”, and while he has a degree in anthropology and is qualified to discuss this one,


I don't really care as it has nothing to do with this...
In context, however, a negative emotional reaction based on morals is far from warranted here. Would you leave a child to suffer from Down’s Syndrome if the additional chromosome could be removed, letting them have a normal life? I don’t think I would think twice about it. Curing a disease is not an immoral action.
 
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Ophiolite

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The famous Milligram experiments suggest otherwise, though that was a select application of resistance to corrupt human authority.

Belief in God or other religion was frequently cited by study participants as the reason why they would not submit to corrupt human authority and go all the way into the final level of the experiment which was the equivalent of killing someone.

Ordinary life has numerous checks and balances against human (sin nature) corruption: laws, complex political systems, economic systems, and scientific ethics. Strip that away, and eradicate religious belief along with it, and we’re nothing but murderers.

Simon Sinek cites this experiment in Leaders Eat Last under the Chapter “Abstraction Kills”, and while he has a degree in anthropology and is qualified to discuss this one,



In context, however, a negative emotional reaction based on morals is far from warranted here. Would you leave a child to suffer from Down’s Syndrome if the additional chromosome could be removed, letting them have a normal life? I don’t think I would think twice about it. Curing a disease is not an immoral action.
I do not see why you think the Milligram experiment contradicts my observations. Point me to the data that demonsrate there was more resistance from theists than atheists.

From my perspective humans evolved as a cooperative species and a species in which that cooperation is structured. We are naturally inclined to work towards common goals and for hierarchies of leadership to emerge to facilitate that cooperation. The degree to which individuals are willing to work for the common good varies across a wide spectrum, from sacrificing ones own life to benefit others - at one end - to the psychopath at the other end.

You remarked "Ordinary life has numerous checks and balances against human (sin nature) corruption: laws, complex political systems, economic systems, and scientific ethics. Strip that away, and eradicate religious belief along with it, and we’re nothing but murderers."
But the thing is, you cannot strip that away. The laws and the beliefs are formalised expressions of our instinctive behaviour that remain even when those formalities are removed.
What the Milligram experiment demonstrated was that many people can be conned and coerced, in the confused belief they are cooperating for some greater benefit.



I am provisionally assuming that your last paragraph was addressed generally to members, since I made no comments on that aspect of the topic. However, since you did bring up, I would definitely think twice about applying the procedure - and I believe, in practice you would too - since at this point I know nothing about its potential dangers and downsides.

In the article, of around 730 words, I found seventeen caveats. Some were minor: "The treated cells reverted to typical patterns of protein manufacturing. They also showed better survival rates in certain tests . . . . " So, not in all tests. Others were more troubling: "Some of the CRISPR cuts can affect healthy chromosomes." and "Researchers will likely continue analyzing the risks of widespread DNA changes." In short, we don't know how well the technique works, we don't know how consistently it works, we don't know what unwanted side effects there may be, we don't know if it can be safely and effectively developed into a procedure.

Here is the real ethical issue: how do we discourage print and online publications overstating the benefits and immediacy of solutions to problems that will give false hope to millions? How do we suppress click bait in our media?
 
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Ophiolite

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Like what? I do not see any ethical question, here.
At some point, if the research continues, clinical trials will be required. All clinical trials involve risk. How soon in the process the trials are initiated is an ethical question. What level of risk is considered acceptable is an ethical question. I'm sure there are more.
 
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trophy33

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At some point, if the research continues, clinical trials will be required. All clinical trials involve risk. How soon in the process the trials are initiated is an ethical question. What level of risk is considered acceptable is an ethical question. I'm sure there are more.
Is it not the same or similar with any trials regarding new treatments? From vaccinations to chemotherapy to surgeries to medications etc.?
 
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Ophiolite

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Is it not the same or similar with any trials regarding new treatments? From vaccinations to chemotherapy to surgeries to medications etc.?
Certainly, but your post asserted that you saw no ethical questions. I can only respond to what you say, not what you may or may not know.
 
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trophy33

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Certainly, but your post asserted that you saw no ethical questions. I can only respond to what you say, not what you may or may not know.
The claim "many ethical questions, of course" asserted that we should all know that this is something specially ethically controversial in many areas.

"Ethical questions as usual while designing clinical trials for new procedures" is probably not what one would expect from such claim.
 
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