Spanish Inquisiton

boughtwithaprice said:

Well God says if they love not the truth they will be given strong delusion and will believe a lie

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Yes, people who pray to God over and over again hoping for a different answer eventually create a false God in their imagination who tells them what they want to hear.

Gregory Thompson said:

Enlightenment theology focuses on what it wants to say and sidelines everything else using Reason. This ingrained mindset is what created the just the blindspot for atrocities to be created under the nose of the church. It continues today, it's just not new theology anymore tho.

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Ok. Gregory thank you

jamiec said:

I don’t see why the Church should not be held responsible for everything it did in its past. I think it is essential to do exactly that, in order to help keep it honest. It makes a great deal of its continuity with the past - therefore, it cannot shrug off anything in the past, but has to take responsibility for the whole of that past. It cannot be allowed to take credit only for the bits of its history that, at a given time, it happens to approve of, for (1) that is dishonest & cowardly; and (2) what it approves of, at one time, may be disapproved of by it at another.

Other bodies do not get to remember only the bits of their pasts that they agree with or approve - & neither should Churches.

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It’s the individuals who are responsible for the actions of the church at any given time not the organization itself if it no longer considers those actions acceptable behavior. It’s kind of like saying Biden or Trump or Americans today are responsible for slavery in America when they had absolutely nothing to do with it because they weren’t even born yet.

jamiec said:

Of course Apostolic succession doesn’t guarantee infallibility. No theologically-informed Catholic would claim that it does, because the two topics are entirely distinct, and are not logically connected. To claim that Apostolic succession does guarantee infallibility, would be a very stupid argument.

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Numerous people here on CF claim that the RCC is in fact infallible when it comes to doctrine because of apostolic succession.

jamiec said:

STM that if figures can’t be ascertained to be accurate, they should not be suggested; in order to avoid producing fake history. I think that if a range of figures has been suggested, each should be discussed on its merits, and accepted or dismissed (with whatever degree of caution) accordingly.

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The source that gave that number claimed that it was based on the records of the RCC church. It’s the only number I’ve seen that actually gives any evidence at all to support the numbers.

Starts at 13:42 - Proof of the Inquisition

Some of the sources they cited:
Rev 17: 6 I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the saints and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I marveled with great amazement.

boughtwithaprice said:

Not exactly. She is infallible in doctrine and morals because of the promise of Christ to build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it. That promise is passed on in Apostolic succession. It is the full faith and honor of the Holy Spirt which maintains infallibility, not the Apostolic succession itself.
Error can spread error, but God cannot lie, as He is not a man that He should lie. Humans are not impeccable, meaning we see through a glass darkly and do not have complete knowledge
You very graciously pointed out that we cannot judge the Church by actions of individuals. God maintains the integrity of His Church, but individuals can fall into sin.
We judge the Catholic Church by her teaching, not individual actions. The only one that I have seen so far try to use the Catechism in his arguments is Bob Ryan, the rest can be summed up like, “I have these writings that someone said that the Catholic Church is evil, let’s look at what they wrote and see how evil the Catholic Church is or how far she has strayed.”
No one here would like to be judged by what others say about them. We all want to speak for ourselves. There are numerous stories of young people committing suicide because their on line reputation is ruined and they are cyber bullied. It’s an awful situation to be in. We won’t tolerate it for ourselves, why would we feel justified putting the Church in that position.
Jesus tells us specifically not to do it. He says love your enemies, treat others as you would have them treat you. If you don’t, then don’t come crying to me, you will be judged by your own standards. That is the most powerful statement that God can make.
All I have to do is withhold judgement and give everyone the benefit of the doubt and fully investigate a matter, really contemplate 1 Cor 13, and I will receive mercy as the merciful will have mercy shown them. If I make snap judgements, believe gossip and shun my enemies instead of loving them, Christ will shun me at the judgement seat, because He said he would. That is really scary. God puts us in charge of our own salvation, gotta work it out with fear and trembling else he will say, depart from me ye that work iniquity

If you want to challenge the Catholic Church, then go ahead. He told us we would be hated by all men for His names sake. God does not command us to believe what we think is false. Just make an honest inquiry. Come let us reason together says the Lord. Scripture even says to be always ready to give an answer for the reason for the hope that you have. Gossip and slander don’t work, we have to study to show ourselves approved

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Jesus said a lot of things. He also said you will know them by their fruits in Matthew 7 as well as not everyone who says to Me Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven. Christ’s Church is not a particular organization, it consists of everyone who follow His teachings regardless of whether they are associated with any particular organization or not. There are many who claim to be Christians who are not actually “followers of Christ”. Jesus absolutely did teach us to judge people according to their actions, especially people in the church, which is why He warned us about the false prophets and told us how to identify them. I’m not saying that the RCC is not Christ’s Church, I’m simply saying that not everyone in the RCC are or were followers of Christ. Christ specifically told the apostles how to deal with people who refused to accept His gospel, “take back your blessing of peace and as you leave that house or city shake the dust from your sandals.” Matthew 10:13-14. That’s what the RCC practices today but it’s not what they practiced during the inquisitions. Again the fault falls on the individual not the organization unless that organization endorses those practices. What a lot of people don’t seem to know is that there was a lot of controversy about the practice of the inquisitions and quite a few RCC priests & bishops were opposed to it, they just didn’t have the authority to do anything about it other than voice their concerns. As for apostolic succession Jesus never actually said anything about it anywhere in the scriptures. Matthew 16:18 certainly doesn’t say anything about Peter’s successors or any Christian organizations. His Church consists of those who hear His words and act on them. It has nothing to do with any affiliation with any particular organization.

BNR32FAN said:

Matthew 16:18 certainly doesn’t say anything about Peter’s successors or any Christian organizations

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It does, in that it refers to the Church, but how we interpret the Church is a matter of ecclesiological debate. Most Eastern Orthodox and Catholics believe in a single visible church ecclesiology, albeit in the case of the Eastern Orthodox with the caveat that the EO do not know where the church is not, in the words of Metropolitan Kallistos Ware, and also according to St. John Maximovitch EO are not to worry about the salvation of Protestants or other Christians because of the infinite mercy of Jesus Christ but rather to focus on repenting of their own sins (negative proselytism in particular is viewed as extremely un-orthodox according to Metropolitan Kallistos Ware); some Oriental Orthodox and Anglicans and Assyrians tend to lean towards “branch ecclesiology”, wherein the belief is that the visible church exists in different branches as a result of schisms. Then we have the local church ecclesiology of baptisms, the Orthopraxis ecclesiology of Martin Luther, and “inivisible church ecclesiology”, and then the more problematic views, which are non-Eucharistic ecclesiologies such as invisible church exclusivism and anti-sacramentalism which we find among, for example, early Quakers.

At any rate, most Eastern Orthodox regard Matthew 16:18 as the basis for all apostolic succession. The Syriac Orthodox, among the Oriental Orthodox, have a high petrology, which is based on the historic reality that the three Petrine sees of Rome, Alexandria and Antioch were the centers of the Christian community after the destruction of Jerusalem in 130 AD until the end of the DIocletian persecutions under St. Constantine, when the see of St. Andrew, New Rome, was elevated to a Patriarchate and the city of Jerusalem was rebuilt, indeed, to such an extent that by 325, before Constantinople’s Patriarchal status was formally recognized, canon 7 of Nicaea gave Jerusalem equivalent rights to those of Rome, Antioch and Alexandria (guaranteed by canon 6).

The RCC position of Papal Supremacy is by the way inconsistent with both canons 6 and 7 of Nicaea, and also canons of later ecumenical councils, for example, that of Ephesus that affirms the historic autocephalous status of the Church of Cyprus, which by virtue of having been equally inconvenient to reach from any of the other ancient sees was never a part of any other church.

This is also why St. Epiphanios, when he received a false accusation that St. John Chrysostom had embraced the Origenist heresy by receiving Origenist monks, set out to Constantinople to depose him, only to turn back when he received word that the report was false, unfortunately reposing before he reached his archepiscopal see in Salamis.

But as an autocephalous bishop, St. Epiphanios would be within his rights to attempt to depose a heretical bishop, and indeed St. Epiphanios spent his entire career fighting heresy, like St. Athanasius of Alexandria and St. Irenaeus of Lyons.

I am Catholic, you are not, so I am saved, you are not.

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What a sad and misinformed thing to say. No one knows who is saved but Jesus, He alone knows the wheat from the tares. Just because one belongs to a denomination, that won't save us, its about our relationship with Jesus Christ and if we have a right relationship with Him, we will hear His voice through His teachings and follow them and His example. No where does the Bible teach that the Catholic church is the one true church. I would beg to differ based on what Scripture teaches. We were warned what would happen after the apostles Acts 20:29

These are the qualities of Christ's church or a saved person according to Scripture

Rev 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

I am sure the commandments of God are based on His personally written and spoken Testimony Exo 31:18, the ones He promised not to alter Psa 89:34 not a jot or tittle Mat 5:18 the ones under His mercy seat- in the Most Holy of His Temple revealed at the last trumpet Rev 11:18-19 not the church who boastfully says they changed them based on their authority over God's we were warned about. Dan 7:25 sadly that most of her daughters follows, instead of what path Jesus told us to take Mat 15:3-14 Mark 7:7-13 .

I would be weary of any church who puts more emphasis on their church than over Jesus Christ. We need to have the faith of Jesus how did He live what did He teach, that's where our focus needs to be. John 14:6

God bless

boughtwithaprice said:

I am Catholic, you are not, so I am saved, you are not.

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What does the Bible say?

• Proverbs 28:18 Whoso walketh uprightly shall be saved: but he that is perverse in his ways shall fall at once.
• Matthew 10:22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
• Matthew 24:13 But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
• Mark 13:13 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.
• Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
• John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
• 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
• Acts 4:10-12 Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole. This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner. Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
• Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
• Revelation 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Walk uprightly, endure, be baptized (professing your faith), believe, repent, receive salvation through Jesus Christ, keep the commandments, keep the faith of Jesus. These are universal Biblical principles for all peoples (see whosoever; whoever). Do you not find it troubling that the very word Catholic is defined as "including a wide variety of things; all-embracing" (i.e. universal), but claims exclusivity[a] (also, see your very own statement) in regards to salvation when it is not in any way Biblically sound?

Matthew 18:16 But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established.

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a. Catechism of the Catholic Church

• "Prologue", page 10, article 15
• "The Profession of Faith", page 29, article 95
• "The Profession of Faith", page 75, article 289
• "The Profession of Faith", page 201, article 766
• "The Profession of Faith", page 215, article 816
  • “The sole Church of Christ [is that] which our Savior, after
    his Resurrection, entrusted to Peter’s pastoral care, commissioning
    him and the other apostles to extend and rule it. . . . This Church,
    constituted and organized as a society in the present world, sub
    sists in (subsistit in) the Catholic Church, which is governed by the
    successor of Peter and by the bishops in communion with him.”
  • The Second Vatican Council’s Decree on Ecumenism explains:
    “For it is through Christ’s Catholic Church alone, which is
    the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the
    means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic
    college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that
    our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in
    order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which
    all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way
    to the People of God.”