Former Biden diplomat says there’s ‘no question’ that ‘free Palestine’ slogan has become a call for violence

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
I'm sorry but just no. The Ottomans lost.

God is sovereign over all things and the land of Israel is not an Islamic Waqf. Israel is not the "church funds" of the Arabs and no one "stole" anything.

I'm not talking about Palestinan propaganda calling the land of Ottoman Palestine a "Waqf." as a way of asserting a divine mandate I am talking about an actual. non-governmental religious endowment fund which existed before the conguest of the Ottoman Empire.

Hazelelponi said:
If God saw Israel even for one second as an Islamic Waqf, then the Arabs would have actually won any one of the myriad wars they have tried waging against her.

God has spoken. Israel has the right to exist. Palestine doesn't exist, by their own choice, only Israel does. If Palestinians want to be a nation they will have to live next door in peace.

This is the way of life. God has spoken, well more than once. It's time to agree with God and have the peace.

The apocalyptic aspirations of the Arab Islamists is wholly invalid. They have a mosque. They can keep it up while living peacefully with their Jewish neighbors, or of course they can die, I'm sure it's their choice, but Israel is going nowhere and owes no Arab not one thing.

And that, is according to God.

If you want to know what God's will is, watch what God does, and God strengthened Israel against greater forces. Arabs have every part of the middle east but a postage stamp, and then He declared that postage stamp for the Jews.

So this is God's will. Iran, Lebanon, Egypt, all the crazy Islamists from the world over and Jordan combined couldn't take down a handful of Jews. It's over.

Time for the peace.

According to God? I think you must have been pranked. As far as I am aware, God has not taken sides in this dispute. I know there are fringe Christians sects who believe such a thing , but as far as I am concerned, a person who urges that it be the basis of US policy towards the Israeli/Palestinian dispute is a traitor to his country and an enemy of Christ.

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
before the conguest of the Ottoman Empire.

To highlight - The Ottoman Empire ceded control via the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), legally establishing the British Mandate (1922). Israel’s land policies were secular and lawful, not theft.

Comparing Israel as a result to “stolen church funds” (#118) misframes the ENTIRE issue - unless you're claiming that Palestine is an Islamic Waqf by the will of God - not just a matter that was explicit to a now fallen empire who ceded all control via a legal secular treaty.

IF Palestine were divinely ordained as an Islamic Waqf (overriding Ottoman rule and existing as a separate and overriding entity beyond that specific empire) then the Arab wars against Israel would have succeeded...

Yet they didn't succeed so there's no Islamic Waqf and Israel no duty to acknowledge one.

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
According to God? I think you must have been pranked.

Yes, according to GOD there is no Islamic Waqf over Israel.

Arabs won zero of the wars they decided to wage. That's God not man.

"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" Proverbs 16:33

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
To highlight - The Ottoman Empire ceded control via the Treaty of Lausanne (1923), legally establishing the British Mandate (1922). Israel’s land policies were secular and lawful, not theft.

Why would that give them title to land not owned by the Ottoman government?

Hazelelponi said:
Comparing Israel as a result to “stolen church funds” (#118) misframes the ENTIRE issue - unless you're claiming that Palestine is an Islamic Waqf by the will of God - not just a matter that was explicit to a fallen empire who ceded all control via a legal secular treaty.

IF Palestine were divinely ordained as an Islamic Waqf (overriding Ottoman rule and existening a separate entity beyond that specific empire) then the Arab wars against Israel would have succeeded...

Yet they didn't succeed so there's no Islamic Waqf and Israel no duty to acknowledge one.

I'm not talking about the Palestinian's imaginary "Waqf." I am talking about an actual non-governmental endowment fund which existed before the British conquest. What became of it?

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
Yes, according to GOD Palestine is not an Islamic Waqf.

There is certainly no evidence that either side has a divine right to anything. But what happened to the actual waqf?

Hazelelponi said:
They won zero of the wars they decided to wage. That's God not man.

Winning a war proves that you have God on your side? Where is that in the Gospels?

Hazelelponi said:
"The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord" Proverbs 16:33

Good.

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
Why would that give them title to land not owned by the Ottoman government?

It was land owned by the Ottoman Empire.

It is now not land owned by the Ottoman Empire.

The Ottomans administrated according to Islamic law. When they ceded control of the territory they also ceded the Islamic law administration for the land, because the land stopped being in the control of Islamic law.

Trying to force secular people to submit to Islamic law and Islamic administration is more than a little ridiculous.

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
It was land owned by the Ottoman Empire.

It was land owned by an endowment fund, not the Ottoman Empire.

Hazelelponi said:
It is now not land owned by the Ottoman Empire.

It never was owned by the Ottoman Empire. The Empire owned much of the land in Palestine, but not all of it. Some of it was owned by a non-governmental endowment fund.

Hazelelponi said:
The Ottomans administrated according to Islamic law. When they ceded control of the territory they also ceded the Islamic law administration for the land, because the land stopped being in the control of Islamic law.

Do you have a source for this inciteful legal opinion?

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
never was owned by the Ottoman Empire.

If it was ever, even for a second, owned by Islam's "god", he didn't have the power of keep it.

So long as we are discussing the issue framed in accordance with Islamic Sharia law then we can't have a conversation about Israel as a SECULAR state.

And no, I will not frame any of my arguments to acknowledge a lie...

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
If it was ever, even for a second, owned by Islam's "god", he didn't have the power of keep it.

So long as we are discussing the issue framed in accordance with Islamic Sharia law then we can't have a conversation about Israel as a SECULAR state.

It was never owned by Islam's God. It was a private, non-governmental endowment fund created for the construction and maintenance of Mosques and for carrying out works of charity. What happened to it?

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
It was never owned by Islam's God. It was a private, non-governmental endowment fund created for the construction and maintenance of Mosques and for carrying out works of charity. What happened to it?

Who run holy sites accordingly under Islamic law, as administrated by Islamic governments.

So I say again, If Israel ever once belonged to Islams god he didn't have the power to keep it.

I converted 10 years ago TO Christianity FROM exactly the kind of mentality you're sitting on a Christian forum promoting...

So I will say it again - Islamic Waqf is a lie. There is no Waqf in Israel, it's not an Islamic state and Israel is under no obligation before God to run their country according to the mores of Sharia.

Israel is a secular state, and I will never again acknowledge Waqf in Israel

You cannot make me acknowledge it or trick me into it. I follow Christ, and believe in secular legal processes. The Islamists can either live in peace or die. The choice is theirs.

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
Who run holy sites accordingly under Islamic law, as administrated by Islamic governments.

No, as administered by the board of directors of the fund. Don't you know how endowment funds work?

Hazelelponi said:
So I say again, If Israel ever once belonged to Islams god he didn't have the power to keep it.

Good for you, but that's not what we are talking about.

Hazelelponi said:
I converted 10 years ago TO Christianity FROM exactly the kind of mentality you're sitting on a Christian forum promoting...

You were once a Muslim?

Hazelelponi said:
So I will say it again - Islamic Waqf is a lie. There is no Waqf in Israel, it's not an Islamic state and Israel is under no obligation before God to run their country according to the mores of Sharia.

Who is requiring that of them? The waqfa I am talking about is not a claim of sovereignty. That's imaginary. What I am talking about is an actual financial entity, an endowment fund which seems to have disappeared. What happened to it?

Hazelelponi said:
Israel is a secular state, and I will never again acknowledge Waqf in Israel

You cannot make me acknowledge it or trick me into it. I follow Christ, and believe in secular legal process

Do you acknowledge the existence of the waqfs* in other lands? Or is that money free for the taking by a Christian anywhere?

*the plural would actually be "awqaf."

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
No, as administered by the board of directors of the fund. Don't you know how endowment funds work?

Good for you, but that's not what we are talking about.

You were once a Muslim?

Who is requiring that of them? The waqfa I am talking about is not a claim of sovereignty. That's imaginary. What I am talking about is an actual financial entity, an endowment fund which seems to have disappeared. What happened to it?

Do you acknowledge the existence of the waqfs* in other lands? Or is that money free for the taking by a Christian anywhere?

*the plural would actually be "awqaf."

Everything you've argued is based on Islamic extremist beliefs and ideology.

We can't discuss on the basis of something I don't believe in even if you do

I'm on a Christian forum because Christ is what I believe in and no part of my speech acknowledges Islamic extremists as having any validity.

Goodbye.

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
Everything you've argued is based on Islamic extremist beliefs.

We can't discuss on the basis of something I don't believe in even if you do

I'm on a Christian forum.

So having an endowment fund to maintain a Christian church is based on extremist Christian beliefs? And because of that we can steal the money?

Hazelelponi · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
So having an endowment fund to maintain a Christian church is based on extremist Christian beliefs? And because of that we can steal the money?

Having a mosque in a land does NOT make the land Islamic and it doesn't mean some endowment is given supremacy over governments and secular legal processes.

If, to use an example only, Syria was conquered could we then claim the Christian churces made Syria a Protestant state and thereby the new Syrian government had to pay Protestants?

Where was the money for the Jews thrown out of Gaza, for their homes and properties when they were kicked out of Islamic countries across the middle east with nothing but the clothes on their backs?

The Muslims are requiring what they refused others because they claim it's an "Islamic Waqf" on the basis that they planted a mosque there like a flag.

Can I go build my temple in Israel so I can claim perpetual land rights?

Hmmm? Can I?

Maybe I should build my temple in Mecca and claim all of Arabia as mine in perpetuity...

Get real....

FAITH-IN-HIM · May 29, 2025

The historical context of whether this was a religious war, the actions of the Ottoman Empire, or the departure of British and Western powers is not the core issue. The fundamental question is whether Palestinians want to live peacefully in this land alongside Israelis.

The answer is no.

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

Hazelelponi said:
Having a mosque in a land does NOT make the land Islamic and it doesn't mean some endowment is given supremacy over governments and secular legal processes.

No, it does not and I have never claimed it did.

Hazelelponi said:
If, to use an example only, Syria was conquered could we then claim the Christian churces made Syria a Protestant state and thereby the new Syrian government had to pay Protestants?

No, but it would be rude of us to steal that money laid aside for the maintenance of mosques.

Hazelelponi said:
Where was the money for the Jews thrown out of Gaza, for their homes and properties when they were kicked out of Islamic countries across the middle east with nothing but the clothes on their backs?

When did this happen?

Hazelelponi said:
The Muslims are requiring what they refused others because they claim it's an "Islamic Waqf" on the basis that they planted a mosque there like a flag.

Can I go build my temple in Israel so I can claim perpetual land rights?

Hmmm? Can I?

Get real.

No. HAMAS (not "The Muslims") is using the concept of "waqf" to make a spurious clame of divine right to the land. We don't need to pay any attention to that at all, any more than we need to pay any attention to anybody else's claim of divine right to it. I am not talking about any of that.

I am not talking about any spiritual or metaphysical or religious clam to the land, or even about who holds sovereignty over the land.

I am talking about something entirely different. I am talking about an actual, down-to-earth real endowment fund with real money in it and which owned actual legal title to actual real estate parcels. What happened to that?

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The historical context of whether this was a religious war, the actions of the Ottoman Empire, or the departure of British and Western powers is not the core issue. The fundamental question is whether Palestinians want to live peacefully in this land alongside Israelis.

The answer is no.

Why should they?

trophy33 · May 29, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
The historical context of whether this was a religious war, the actions of the Ottoman Empire, or the departure of British and Western powers is not the core issue. The fundamental question is whether Palestinians want to live peacefully in this land alongside Israelis.

The answer is no.

The "no" answer is not surprising, though. Why should they want it? Just because some world superpowers decided that they will implant a Jewish state in the midst of Palestine and send Jews from all over the world there?

I guess no original inhabitants would say "yes" to that. Imagine somebody decides that the half of the USA will be a Russian or Chinese country. And you must leave your homes and to move the the resting half.

FAITH-IN-HIM · May 29, 2025

BCP1928 said:
Why should they?

They don’t have to.

And how is that working out for them?

BCP1928 · May 29, 2025

FAITH-IN-HIM said:
They don’t have to.

And how is that working out for them?

Not very well at the present moment. Who are you rooting for?

Former Biden diplomat says there’s ‘no question’ that ‘free Palestine’ slogan has become a call for violence

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads