Eucharist Elements

RandyPNW · May 27, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
Is Christ present there in a way that he is not present in your family meal together?

I think God is always present with us. What makes His presence more meaningful in a rite like this is the lessons we draw from it. In partaking of the bread and the wine we show that we partake of Christ himself.

It is a *real* participation of Christ. But that participation takes place every day, whether we are taking the Eucharist or not. The Eucharist makes this reality something we can do to make our participation in Christ vivid and immediate in the sacrament.

But it is not the meal that precipitates this participation, this ingestion of Christ. It is an act of showing that this is what we do every day. In living by the word of God each day, whether in the Eucharist or not, we participate in Christ and experience his presence.

prodromos · May 27, 2025

RandyPNW said:
What I meant was that none of us are actual cannibals. I do understand that you take ingesting Jesus literally.

Cannibalism destroys the one consumed. They murder the victim and eat dead flesh.
In contrast Christ suffers no harm in giving us His flesh to eat, and the flesh we consume is living flesh.

Akita Suggagaki · May 27, 2025

RandyPNW said:
I think God is always present with us. What makes His presence more meaningful in a rite like this is the lessons we draw from it. In partaking of the bread and the wine we show that we partake of Christ himself.

It is a *real* participation of Christ. But that participation takes place every day, whether we are taking the Eucharist or not. The Eucharist makes this reality something we can do to make our participation in Christ vivid and immediate in the sacrament.

But it is not the meal that precipitates this participation, this ingestion of Christ. It is an act of showing that this is what we do every day. In living by the word of God each day, whether in the Eucharist or not, we participate in Christ and experience his presence.

I agree. I just think there is something more to it.

jas3 · May 27, 2025

RandyPNW said:
It is a *real* participation of Christ. But that participation takes place every day, whether we are taking the Eucharist or not. The Eucharist makes this reality something we can do to make our participation in Christ vivid and immediate in the sacrament.

It's not "real" in any meaningful sense if the "participation of Christ" would objectively be unchanged whether you're taking the Eucharist or not.

Jipsah · May 27, 2025

RandyPNW said:
What I meant was that none of us are actual cannibals. I do understand that you take ingesting Jesus literally.

Yes. He said “this is My Body”, not “this represents My Body”., trying to squiggle around it is as pointless as it is futile.

Jipsah · May 27, 2025

RandyPNW said:
I think God is always present with us.

So the Eucharist is just a memorial snack

RandyPNW said:
What makes His presence more meaningful in a rite like this is the lessons we draw from it. In partaking of the bread and the wine we show that we partake of Christ himself.

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what He said.

RandyPNW said:
It is a *real* participation of Christ. But that participation takes place every day, whether we are taking the Eucharist or not

So it’s a pointless ritual.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
I agree. I just think there is something more to it.

The farther I go with it, the more of a sacramentalist I become. I don't obtain virtue in ceremonies. I obtain virtue by becoming good in the likeness of Christ, by partaking of him and obtaining his virtue by spiritual means.

I do think there is virtue is these performances because Christ encouraged it. Doing what he says is a form of cooperation, which has to have good results. That's the best I can expect of sacraments, to be pleasing to God and to experience the results.

If you are able to find greater benefit than what Christ promised through these sacraments, let me know? There may be more promised than I've been able to see.

The oldest churches are Sacramentalists, meaning that they find some kind of grace imparted for those keeping the Sacraments. They obtain some benefit, which may or may not contribute to Salvation. Though I respect the thought, it isn't my personal conviction.

Radagast · May 28, 2025

This is the Reformation view (Belgic Confession 35):

... we err not when we say that what is eaten and drunk by us is the proper and natural body and the proper blood of Christ But the manner of our partaking of the same is not by the mouth, but by the Spirit through faith. Thus, then, though Christ always sits at the right hand of His Father in the heavens, yet doth He not therefore cease to make us partakers of Himself by faith. This feast is a spiritual table at which Christ communicates Himself with all His benefits to us, and gives us there to enjoy both Himself and the merits of His sufferings and death, nourishing, strengthening, and comforting our poor comfortless souls by the eating of His flesh, quickening and refreshing them by the drinking of His blood.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

jas3 said:
It's not "real" in any meaningful sense if the "participation of Christ" would objectively be unchanged whether you're taking the Eucharist or not.

If the act of partaking of Christ represents our ongoing participation in Christ as we live in him spiritually, then there need be no transformation of the elements because the partaking of Christ is not intrinsic to the taking of the elements. It is only a Sacramental representation that mimics what we are doing spiritually anyway. We partake of Christ every day, and we do so well before we participate in the Eucharist. The Eucharist reinforces what we're already engaged in, which is abiding in Christ by the Spirit.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

Jipsah said:
Yes. He said “this is My Body”, not “this represents My Body”., trying to squiggle around it is as pointless as it is futile.

I'm not "squiggling." This is my belief, and obviously not yours. I believe the Sacrament "represents" our actual participation in Christ, and as such is part of our participation in Christ. In doing the Sacrament we are doing what we have already been doing, which is participating in Christ.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

Jipsah said:
So the Eucharist is just a memorial snack

Which has nothing whatsoever to do with what He said.

So it’s a pointless ritual.

A memorial ritual is not a "snack." Treating it as such would violate the spirit in which it is to be done.

The Eucharist is not "pointless" even as a ritual of remembrance. Christ specifically said its usefulness was precisely *as a remembrance.* We need to enact what we believe in this ritual form because we are forgetful and have a Sin Inclination that disrupts regular observance of our Faith.

jas3 · May 28, 2025

RandyPNW said:
It is only a Sacramental representation that mimics what we are doing spiritually anyway.

Can mimicking what you're doing anyway result in death if you do it incorrectly?

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

jas3 said:
Can mimicking what you're doing anyway result in death if you do it incorrectly?

Yes, if God sees one mimicking Him in a mockery of His decency. Those who "partied while observing the Eucharist died.

jas3 · May 28, 2025

RandyPNW said:
Yes, if God sees one mimicking Him in a mockery of His decency.

So now you're saying the Eucharist is mimicking God? Earlier you said it was mimicking our ongoing spiritual reception of Christ.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

jas3 said:
So now you're saying the Eucharist is mimicking God? Earlier you said it was mimicking our ongoing spiritual reception of Christ.

God is part of the observance. If we pretend that the bread, which is Jesus' body, is something to be treated as plain old bread, or tasty bread, mocking the whole purpose of the bread in representing Christ, who is indeed divine, then we can commit an offense that leads to death.

Akita Suggagaki · May 28, 2025

RandyPNW said:
The farther I go with it, the more of a sacramentalist I become. I don't obtain virtue in ceremonies. I obtain virtue by becoming good in the likeness of Christ, by partaking of him and obtaining his virtue by spiritual means.

It doesn't have t be either/or. Virtue is abundantly available.

RandyPNW said:
I do think there is virtue is these performances because Christ encouraged it. Doing what he says is a form of cooperation, which has to have good results. That's the best I can expect of sacraments, to be pleasing to God and to experience the results.

If you are able to find greater benefit than what Christ promised through these sacraments, let me know? There may be more promised than I've been able to see.

What he promised is that he is present in them in a way that confounds skeptics.

RandyPNW said:
The oldest churches are Sacramentalists, meaning that they find some kind of grace imparted for those keeping the Sacraments. They obtain some benefit, which may or may not contribute to Salvation. Though I respect the thought, it isn't my personal conviction.

Yes, that is where we part. But let me add that I believe Christ, out of generous love, intends to share himself with us in an intimacy that is not otherwise available.

RandyPNW · May 28, 2025

Akita Suggagaki said:
It doesn't have t be either/or. Virtue is abundantly available.

What he promised is that he is present in them in a way that confounds skeptics.

Yes, that is where we part. But let me add that I believe Christ, out of generous love, intends to share himself with us in an intimacy that is not otherwise available.

Believe me I always have that intimacy, with or without the Eucharist. Of course, those times are only when God wishes to give it--quite often when I'm alone thinking over life and God. Often it's when I'm playing some Christian music, listening to the words or humming along.

Sometimes I feel such elation/ecstasy in church during worship/praise. I seriously doubt the experience in the Eucharist can be controlled. That is, we cannot force the Holy Spirit to act in a particularly gracious way by performing any kind of ceremony--not even if it is something He has asked us to do.

But God shows up regularly if we continue to fight the good fight. In all honesty, when I was a younger Christian, going through lots of troubles, it seemed that God didn't care--even though I knew He did. It was quite a trial.

But now that I'm older, even if the trials persist I'm much calmer and enjoy a more stable relationship with God. It's not about ceremones or the mechanics of worship, but rather, about walking with God as Enoch did, as David did. I wish you well, my friend.

Are you Japanese? Your name sounds like it. My sister-in-law is half Japanese, and many of my nephews and nieces look at least partly Japanese.

prodromos · May 29, 2025

RandyPNW said:
God is part of the observance. If we pretend that the bread, which is Jesus' body, is something to be treated as plain old bread, or tasty bread, mocking the whole purpose of the bread in representing Christ, who is indeed divine, then we can commit an offense that leads to death.

So God is offended and smites those who disrespect His symbol?

RandyPNW · May 29, 2025

prodromos said:
So God is offended and smites those who disrespect His symbol?

2 Sam 6.6 When they came to the threshing floor of Nakon, Uzzah reached out and took hold of the ark of God, because the oxen stumbled. 7 The Lord’s anger burned against Uzzah because of his irreverent act; therefore God struck him down, and he died there beside the ark of God.

I don't think anybody can dispute that the ark was symbolic of God's presence? In this case, a symbol--the ark, was not treated the way God had wanted it to be treated, and it led to God judging somebody to death.

It showed not necessarily God's personal hostility to an individual, but much more, the need to show society the need to treat the symbols of God's worship respectfully, so that the nation would remain in good relations with God and blessed.

It's a bit different situation with the Eucharist. But once again, the elements representing God's presence must be treated respectfully or people could die. It is a sacred practice and must be kept sacred.

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