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Just Like Us , Non Believers Didn't Ask To Be Here Either.

bniffty24

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And like us the non believer didn't get to choose their parents , their country , their color , their language and all the rest of it.
And like us they didn't have any say as to whether or not they would like to be born at all.

So when the unbeliever dies , we christians generally assume they will suffer some sort of horrible fate , some say hell , some say seperation from God and some say this and some say that.

Given all of the above , it seems unfair and cruel to punish some one who never asked to be here in the first place. So do you think there is still hope for the unbeliever even after death ?......I like to think there is , as I have family and friends who have passed on and were all unbelievers , and I hope to see them again one day.
 
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Joseph G

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And like us the non believer didn't get to choose their parents , their country , their color , their language and all the rest of it.
And like us they didn't have any say as to whether or not they would like to be born at all.

So when the unbeliever dies , we christians generally assume they will suffer some sort of horrible fate , some say hell , some say seperation from God and some say this and some say that.

Given all of the above , it seems unfair and cruel to punish some one who never asked to be here in the first place. So do you think there is still hope for the unbeliever even after death ?......I like to think there is , as I have family and friends who have passed on and were all unbelievers , and I hope to see them again one day.
If we are to blame God for creating us, then we have to blame ourselves as well for cooperating with Him in procreating. But true to our inherited sin nature, we blame Him alone - even for the sins we freely choose to commit subsequently.

Even so, God - Who has always been both Judge and Redeemer Himself - provided a Way to - not receiving all that we long for in this temporal life - but to receive eternal life through faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. His sacrifice is such a pure expression of Holy Love that anyone in any circumstance has no excuse to live out their lives indifferent to God's requirement of faith as our only Answer to the dilemma we find ourselves in. This act of Love is enough proof of God's goodness that we can recognize His sovereignty in all things - especially things we don't understand. And remove ourselves from our little makeshift thrones upon which we would presume to judge HIM.

What then, can be more fair that everyone everywhere in every circumstance to be invited to share in this same promise of grace that overshadows any hardship we endure for such a wee blink in time - in comparison to eternity?

So tragically yes, many whom we love will perish because they will stubbornly refuse such grace - ultimately spitting on the cross of Christ and encouraging all others to join them.

There is no one Who loves them more and is more grieved than God Himself. Look at how Jesus wept. He will not force His Love - for He cannot contradict Himself - Who IS Love.

Inquire of any born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled follower of Christ - who have and are suffering no less than the resolute unbeliever - if God is worthy of that faith - and we will say 100 times yes - because there is nothing more valuable to us than enjoying His imputed righteousness and the incredible joy and privilege of knowing Him more and more fully through His Son - and serving Him.

Nothing!

It is far better to suffer for righteousness than for unrighteousness - with a hope that defies our circumstances.

It all comes down to what we value most while here: getting everything we could ever want (including our vision of how things should be), or giving it all up in response to the Holy One - Who gave up more than we could ever imagine or replicate - for a world full of the ungrateful and the wicked...

... namely all of us.

Isaiah 45:8-12 NIV
“You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it."

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

“This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts."

Job 40:1-8 NIV
"The Lord said to Job:
"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

Then Job answered the Lord:
"I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

2 Peter 3:9 NIV
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

John 3:16 NIV
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Enough?

God bless us all who do, and shall, believe and obey!

biblegateway.com
 
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bniffty24

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If we are to blame God for creating us, then we have to blame ourselves as well for cooperating with Him in procreating. But true to our inherited sin nature, we blame Him alone - even for the sins we freely choose to commit subsequently.

Even so, God - Who has always been both Judge and Redeemer Himself - provided a Way to - not receiving all that we long for in this temporal life - but to receive eternal life through faith in His only begotten Son Jesus Christ. His sacrifice is such a pure expression of Holy Love that anyone in any circumstance has no excuse to live out their lives indifferent to God's requirement of faith as our only Answer to the dilemma we find ourselves in. This act of Love is enough proof of God's goodness that we can recognize His sovereignty in all things - especially things we don't understand. And remove ourselves from our little makeshift thrones upon which we would presume to judge HIM.

What then, can be more fair that everyone everywhere in every circumstance to be invited to share in this same promise of grace that overshadows any hardship we endure for such a wee blink in time - in comparison to eternity?

So tragically yes, many whom we love will perish because they will stubbornly refuse such grace - ultimately spitting on the cross of Christ and encouraging all others to join them.

There is no one Who loves them more and is more grieved than God Himself. Look at how Jesus wept. He will not force His Love - for He cannot contradict Himself - Who IS Love.

Inquire of any born-again, Bible-believing, Spirit-filled follower of Christ - who have and are suffering no less than the resolute unbeliever - if God is worthy of that faith - and we will say 100 times yes - because there is nothing more valuable to us than enjoying His imputed righteousness and the incredible joy and privilege of knowing Him more and more fully through His Son - and serving Him.

Nothing!

It is far better to suffer for righteousness than for unrighteousness - with a hope that defies our circumstances.

It all comes down to what we value most while here: getting everything we could ever want (including our vision of how things should be), or giving it all up in response to the Holy One - Who gave up more than we could ever imagine or replicate - for a world full of the ungrateful and the wicked...

... namely all of us.

Isaiah 45:8-12 NIV
“You heavens above, rain down my righteousness;
let the clouds shower it down.
Let the earth open wide,
let salvation spring up,
let righteousness flourish with it;
I, the Lord, have created it."

“Woe to those who quarrel with their Maker,
those who are nothing but potsherds
among the potsherds on the ground.
Does the clay say to the potter,
‘What are you making?’
Does your work say,
‘The potter has no hands’?
Woe to the one who says to a father,
‘What have you begotten?’
or to a mother,
‘What have you brought to birth?’

“This is what the Lord says—
the Holy One of Israel, and its Maker:
Concerning things to come,
do you question me about my children,
or give me orders about the work of my hands?
It is I who made the earth
and created mankind on it.
My own hands stretched out the heavens;
I marshaled their starry hosts."

Job 40:1-8 NIV
"The Lord said to Job:
"Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”

Then Job answered the Lord:
"I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”

Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm:
“Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
"Would you discredit my justice?
Would you condemn me to justify yourself?"

2 Peter 3:9 NIV
"The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."

John 3:16 NIV
"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life."

Enough?

God bless us all who do, and shall, believe and obey!

biblegateway.com
Thank you Joseph and very good post.
However my beef is not with God as I too believe God has got all things under control.
Im more interested in the way we think , and why we think the way we think.
 
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Joseph G

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Thank you Joseph and very good post.
However my beef is not with God as I too believe God has got all things under control.
Im more interested in the way we think , and why we think the way we think.
Ah... its the battle between our carnal mind and the Mind of Christ, isn't it? Part of the cross we carry. Better to battle than to capitulate. In this, too, He has and will have the victory!
 
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linux.poet

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I believe in eternal conscious torment for all unbelievers. While I will acknowledge that there is a debate over this passage, I maintain that we will see our unbelieving relatives again...as they suffer forever.

Isaiah 66: 22-24 said:
22 “For just as the new heavens and the new earth,
Which I make, will endure before Me,” declares the Lord,
“So will your descendants and your name endure.
23 And it shall be from new moon to new moon
And from Sabbath to Sabbath,
All mankind will come to bow down before Me,” says the Lord.
24 “Then they will go out and look
At the corpses of the people
Who have rebelled against Me.
For their worm will not die
And their fire will not be extinguished;
And they will be an abhorrence to all mankind.”

Some scholars believe that this passage refers to the millennium, but the passage literally says "new heavens and new earth", which makes it hard for me to shake the idea that we will be looking down from the towers of the New Jerusalem at our permanently fallen friends. Revelation says that the Lord would wipe away every tear from our eyes, not that there would be no tears.

* * *

People aren't responsible for their reality, but they are responsible for dealing with it. See Romans 9 and Job 38-42. We are responsible for dealing with God and responding correctly to Him and His actions, whether we want to or not.

Job 40:6-14 said:
6 Then the Lord answered Job from the whirlwind and said,

7 “Now tighten the belt on your waist like a man;
I will ask you, and you instruct Me.
8 Will you really nullify My judgment?
Will you condemn Me so that you may be justified?
9 Or do you have an arm like God,
And can you thunder with a voice like His?

10 “Adorn yourself with pride and dignity,
And clothe yourself with honor and majesty.
11 Let out your outbursts of anger,
And look at everyone who is arrogant, and humble him.
12 Look at everyone who is arrogant, and humble him,
And trample down the wicked where they stand.
13 Hide them together in the dust;
Imprison them in the hidden place.
14 Then I will also confess to you,
That your own right hand can save you.

Unbelievers who blame God for creating them are simply outpowered. "Will you condemn me so that you may be justified?" God has the power and authority and right to force humans to deal with Him and the world He has created.

I've suffered from the desire to not exist before, and usually that is the result of extreme suffering. Job 3 is when Job also wanted to not exist. It's a fair response to losing 12 children in one day. That kind of grief is not a footnote to gloss over. If you need to wake up, go listen to TobyMac's Life After Death where he talks about the loss of one child. This is crying your eyeballs out and not getting out of bed kind of grief. It is this grieving father that Satan inflicted with sores and illness. Never underestimate the cruelty of the Enemy.

My life has been filled with almost relentless suffering from day one, and it has always been a life where the next challenge always catches me off-guard, I always have to learn something new to meet it, and so on. The only thing that as helped me hold on has been my dedication to truth and dedication to pushing back against those who want to enslave and ensnare me. You have to get your relationship with God right. Because Satan is not going to stop trying to slow me down, stop, or destroy me and my friends. He has all of us on his radar, and none of us chose to be attacked by him either. It's called war. There are only two exits from a war: winning or death. I deserve to live, and I choose to win until God decides it's time for me to die.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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I believe in eternal conscious torment for all unbelievers. While I will acknowledge that there is a debate over this passage, I maintain that we will see our unbelieving relatives again...as they suffer forever.



Some scholars believe that this passage refers to the millennium, but the passage literally says "new heavens and new earth", which makes it hard for me to shake the idea that we will be looking down from the towers of the New Jerusalem at our permanently fallen friends. Revelation says that the Lord would wipe away every tear from our eyes, not that there would be no tears.
I take a different interpretive tact on this passage and it's application, one that is more functionally positive even if not positively optimistic.

In short, I don't think we'll be witnessing the live, ongoing suffering of all those who have lived and rebelled against God. And in a way, that is a relief.

Also, be careful with how you read this passage in Isaiah 66, especially since its portent about "fire and worms" might not necessarily pertain to either the Millennium or to the Hereafter, but to the 1st Century and any who, on this Earth, persist to fight against Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.
* * *

People aren't responsible for their reality, but they are responsible for dealing with it. See Romans 9 and Job 38-42. We are responsible for dealing with God and responding correctly to Him and His actions, whether we want to or not.



Unbelievers who blame God for creating them are simply outpowered. "Will you condemn me so that you may be justified?" God has the power and authority and right to force humans to deal with Him and the world He has created.

I've suffered from the desire to not exist before, and usually that is the result of extreme suffering. Job 3 is when Job also wanted to not exist. It's a fair response to losing 12 children in one day. That kind of grief is not a footnote to gloss over. If you need to wake up, go listen to TobyMac's Life After Death where he talks about the loss of one child. This is crying your eyeballs out and not getting out of bed kind of grief. It is this grieving father that Satan inflicted with sores and illness. Never underestimate the cruelty of the Enemy.

My life has been filled with almost relentless suffering from day one, and it has always been a life where the next challenge always catches me off-guard, I always have to learn something new to meet it, and so on. The only thing that as helped me hold on has been my dedication to truth and dedication to pushing back against those who want to enslave and ensnare me. You have to get your relationship with God right. Because Satan is not going to stop trying to slow me down, stop, or destroy me and my friends. He has all of us on his radar, and none of us chose to be attacked by him either. It's called war. There are only two exits from a war: winning or death. I deserve to live, and I choose to win until God decides it's time for me to die.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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And like us the non believer didn't get to choose their parents , their country , their color , their language and all the rest of it.
And like us they didn't have any say as to whether or not they would like to be born at all.

So when the unbeliever dies , we christians generally assume they will suffer some sort of horrible fate , some say hell , some say seperation from God and some say this and some say that.

Given all of the above , it seems unfair and cruel to punish some one who never asked to be here in the first place. So do you think there is still hope for the unbeliever even after death ?......I like to think there is , as I have family and friends who have passed on and were all unbelievers , and I hope to see them again one day.
What kind of hope is an unbeliever looking for? After all, they would not believe it anyway. Just curious.
Be blessed.
 
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Bob Crowley

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I have some difficulty with the issue of condemnation for "non-believers". I've long maintained that the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He started by materialising near the bedroom door, and finally disappeared into eternity with an almighty scream. Something was coming for him.

However during the conversation he said at one point (with some alarm) "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time, but even so I argued back saying "That can't be right!!" (ignoring the question of where I got a sense of morality in the first place). He replied "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!" (where he was standing and from his point of view - it was obvious he could see things I couldn't as I only saw him through the entire exchange).

A short time later he said "I was WILLING" (to keep doing the cruel, stupid things that got him condemned). For example he admitted that he deliberately set out to destroy my confidence, saying point blank "I did it deliberately".

But my mother was not an active church goer either. She was not like him though. She had a few faults but nothing like him. She was the glue that kept the family together.

So I struggle with his comment "... I always was doomed ..." juxtaposed with his admission that he was "willing".

I think in the end we're going to find that all those who are lost will also find that they were, to a greater or lesser extent, "... willing ...". Whether they were "... always doomed ..." is another point - were there times when they could have made a choice to accept Christ's saving death on the cross? Or did they spend their entire lives in a non-Christian culture for example - Soviet Russia, Islamic nation, Hindu or Buddhist nation all of which had well developed ideologies or theologies of their own?

I don't know the answer, and I suppose I just have to trust God that He will do what is right and just, even if it sure doesn't look that way at times.
 
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bniffty24

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I have some difficulty with the issue of condemnation for "non-believers". I've long maintained that the night my father died, he appeared in my room. He started by materialising near the bedroom door, and finally disappeared into eternity with an almighty scream. Something was coming for him.

However during the conversation he said at one point (with some alarm) "I always was doomed! I didn't really have any choice!"

I was an atheist at the time, but even so I argued back saying "That can't be right!!" (ignoring the question of where I got a sense of morality in the first place). He replied "Oh, it's right, all right. You can see that from here!" (where he was standing and from his point of view - it was obvious he could see things I couldn't as I only saw him through the entire exchange).

A short time later he said "I was WILLING" (to keep doing the cruel, stupid things that got him condemned). For example he admitted that he deliberately set out to destroy my confidence, saying point blank "I did it deliberately".

But my mother was not an active church goer either. She was not like him though. She had a few faults but nothing like him. She was the glue that kept the family together.

So I struggle with his comment "... I always was doomed ..." juxtaposed with his admission that he was "willing".

I think in the end we're going to find that all those who are lost will also find that they were, to a greater or lesser extent, "... willing ...". Whether they were "... always doomed ..." is another point - were there times when they could have made a choice to accept Christ's saving death on the cross? Or did they spend their entire lives in a non-Christian culture for example - Soviet Russia, Islamic nation, Hindu or Buddhist nation all of which had well developed ideologies or theologies of their own?

I don't know the answer, and I suppose I just have to trust God that He will do what is right and just, even if it sure doesn't look that way at times.
Interesting story , thanks for sharing.
 
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bniffty24

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What kind of hope is an unbeliever looking for?
None as far as I know. Just living out their existence here on earth until they die.
Some of my atheist friends think that Christianity is just another of the many religions around , and see us as just people who want to be religious.
 
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