Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

stevil · Monday at 12:59 AM

MrMoe said:
? Which previous statement. I made a lot of statements.

Oh boy, you can't follow the flow of the conversation, you can't remember what my original post which quote you was referring to?

Bradskii · Monday at 2:33 AM

MrMoe said:
And they get punished accordingly when caught.

After due process.

Bradskii · Monday at 2:45 AM

MrMoe said:
Which are all leadership roles. That belief that men are the head would naturally transfer to leadership of the entire country.

Which is almost the definition of misogyny. I don't know if you are married or maybe have a daughter? Would you think it reasonable that your wife or daughter should be passed over for a promotion simply because they are female?

MrMoe said:
They aren’t voted for because they are white, they are voted because they are believed to be the best person for the job, they just happen to be white most of the time since the majority of American’s population is white.

Something a little less that 2/3. So you'd expect positions of authority, leaders of commerce, heads of corporations, to be around 1/3 non white. Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to explain why that is not so.

Another Reason Top Managers Are Disproportionally White Men

In a discriminatory environment, those outside of power are punished for trying to help each other

www.scientificamerican.com

'Only 19 Fortune 500 firms are led by people of color, and only 21 of these companies are led by women'.

MrMoe · Monday at 4:19 AM

stevil said:
I'm pretty sure the vast majority of people know what I meant.

How do you know? And why are you being so evasive about answering a simple question about why you think it’s so horrific that almost exclusively white men are being picked?

stevil said:
Nope it doesn't transfer.
They have a belief that for some reason, Jesus/God didn't want woman priests, they don't understand it, but they believe this because the Catholic church has made an "infallible" edict on this. So they all obey, unquestionly. But this doesn't apply outside the church. The Catholic church has no issues what so ever with having female presidents and prime ministers

It does apply outside the church. The scriptures says it also applies to the home.

This also ignores the fact that Catholicism is not the only denomination that believes only men should be leaders or the fact that just because it doesn’t apply outside the church doesn’t mean that people won’t apply it anyway.

stevil said:
Yeah, not the book for me, my values are better.

If you say so.

stevil said:
irrelevant

So was your statement I was replying to.

stevil said:
No one is asking for exactly equal outcomes. But your side are refusing to see that there is a problem, White men are refusing to see that there is a problem. I wonder why?

Yet just a few posts ago you were complaining that women should have around 50% of the top jobs. I.e. You were complaining that the outcomes weren’t equal.

Maybe the reason they refuse to see that there is a problem is because there isn’t one, and they see this as just an oppression narrative.

If there’s a problem then provide proof that the problem exists.
And remember: Equal opportunity ≠ equal outcomes

stevil said:
nah, that's not true.
Many USA folk have a much higher standard for women and non whites, because they have lots of core negative beliefs about them.

Okay back your claim up. Saying “nah, that’s not true” doesn’t make it so.

stevil said:
Some people were put off by Kamala because they didn't like her "cackle"

Some people were put off by a simple scream.

Dean scream - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

And Howard Dean is a straight white male. So there goes that oppression narrative.

MrMoe · Monday at 4:22 AM

stevil said:
Oh boy, you can't follow the flow of the conversation, you can't remember what my original post which quote you was referring to?

No. I hope you can see that I’m in conversation with more than one person. Which one was it?

MrMoe · Monday at 4:23 AM

Bradskii said:
After due process.

Sure.

MrMoe · Monday at 4:43 AM

Bradskii said:
Which is almost the definition of misogyny. I don't know if you are married or maybe have a daughter? Would you think it reasonable that your wife or daughter should be passed over for a promotion simply because they are female?

Does this hypothetical job have a rule that only men can be promoted to a higher position like in the Catholic Church? If so why would they be considered for a promotion in the first place?
This isn’t an apples to apples comparison.

Bradskii said:
Something a little less that 2/3. So you'd expect positions of authority, leaders of commerce, heads of corporations, to be around 1/3 non white. Your mission, should you wish to accept it, is to explain why that is not so.

Another Reason Top Managers Are Disproportionally White Men

In a discriminatory environment, those outside of power are punished for trying to help each other

www.scientificamerican.com

'Only 19 Fortune 500 firms are led by people of color, and only 21 of these companies are led by women'.

No problem, the article already gives a possible explanation why that is so.

“In fact, research suggests, it is women and nonwhites themselves who often impede the advancement of their own peers.”

“The results were consistent with the researchers’ field evidence: participants—including women and nonwhites—rated female and minority leaders who advocated for candidates demographically similar to them more negatively.”

“In addition, the longer women are in the workforce, the less likely they are to want a female boss.”

It seems some women and nonwhites are their own worst enemy.

Bradskii · Monday at 5:50 AM

MrMoe said:
Does this hypothetical job have a rule that only men can be promoted to a higher position like in the Catholic Church?

No. But you only want men to be leaders. Although I'm assuming you'd be against a family member being rejected on that basis.

MrMoe said:
No problem, the article already gives a possible explanation why that is so.

“In fact, research suggests, it is women and nonwhites themselves who often impede the advancement of their own peers.”

And why? Did you not continue to read?

'Laurie Rudman, a psychologist at Rutgers University, explains these preferences using the psychological concept of “system justification,” or the tendency for long-oppressed groups, struggling to make sense of an unfair world, internalize negative stereotypes. In the United States, as in many other countries, women don’t have the same status that men do. So when we ask ourselves whom we want to work for, we turn to the historical default choice: a man. Seeing few women leading organizations or managing people, we come to the faulty conclusion that female leadership is somehow an unnatural state of affairs.'

It's a system that is self perpetuating. It therefore needs an active process to change it. Saying that men should be leaders (because hey, it says so in the bible!) is an obstruction to the processes needed to change.

stevil · Monday at 6:06 AM

MrMoe said:
How do you know? And why are you being so evasive about answering a simple question about why you think it’s so horrific that almost exclusively white men are being picked?

There is no point in me telling you the answer. You really need to learn to think for yourself. Think things trough. Put yourself in other people's shoes, think about statistics, about demographics etc.

MrMoe said:
It does apply outside the church. The scriptures says it also applies to the home.

What about the work place or government, what does your ancient scriptures say about that?

MrMoe said:
Yet just a few posts ago you were complaining that women should have around 50% of the top jobs. I.e. You were complaining that the outcomes weren’t equal.

I think math may not be a strong point here.
I'm talking about statistics over time. I would expect overtime that outcomes would like match society demographics, if the are vastly different then that should ring alarm bells and people should be looking into the reasons why. And look to address the issues and impediments that are getting in the way of certain demographics succeeding.

MrMoe said:
Maybe the reason they refuse to see that there is a problem is because there isn’t one,

Im sure there are many White Christian nationalists that don't have any problem with almost all presidents being white male, and almost all SCOTUS being white male and almost all CEOs and Executives and people in hiring positions being white male.
Great if you are a white male.

MrMoe said:
Some people were put off by a simple scream.

But not put off by a male saying he would grab woman by their privates, being found liable for sexual assault (in common speak - rape), being found guilty of 34 counts of fraud, inciting an insurrection, putting pressure on his VP to throw away public votes due to an illegal alternate electors scheme, firing his AG because his AG refused to claim widespread voter fraud without any evidence....

But SHE has a laugh some people don't like.

doubtingmerle · Monday at 6:32 AM

MrMoe said:
That belief that men are the head would naturally transfer to leadership of the entire country.

I’m guessing you haven’t read the bible. It’s full of things you would consider misogynistic.

Suppose a woman was President and her husband told her to make a decision on national security that was radically different from what she wanted. In your view, would she be required to do what her husband told her to do?

doubtingmerle · Monday at 11:35 AM

Lukaris said:
Despite the propaganda spread about this program, the coincidental rise of Venezuelan gang activity seems to indicate it didn’t vet as well as claimed.

Which is a vague, unsupported claim.

Obviously, if there are violent gang members on the streets, the law should deal with them. There is scant evidence that many are coming from the CHNV Parole program. If there are, then yes, there should be better efforts to vet who is coming in.

The CHNV Parole program has been very successful. Challenges to the CHNV program have been refuted:

Refusing to acknowledge the success of the CHNV program, Texas and several other states sued the Biden administration in 2023, arguing that CHNV was a drain on state resources. A Trump appointed judge disagreed and ruled the states had no standing to claim CHNV caused them injury.

In 2024, House Republicans argued in a report that a small percentage of fraudulent sponsor applications discredited the entire CHNV program and, without any evidence, claimed some supporters were “potentially” sex traffickers. (The House Republicans did not disclose the DHS analysis they relied upon, presumably because the analysis did not find “rampant” fraud in the program).

The House report reiterated the inflammatory argument that Haitian parolees negatively impacted communities across the country like Springfield, Ohio – an argument emphatically denied by both the Republican mayor of Springfield and Republican governor of Ohio.

Indeed, a 2024 survey revealed that people seeking safety in the United States through CHNV dispersed across the country with the help of American sponsors and were economically self-sufficient: working and relying on family for assistance – thereby lowering the costs incurred by welcoming cities and states.

Finally, the House report made the unfounded argument that the CHNV program “pulled” migrants to the United States. There is no evidence for this. A survey conducted of intending Venezuelan migrants in 2023 found that the vast majority of them did not know about the program and, if they did, were traveling irregularly because they did not have a sponsor or valid passport required for CHNV. (source)

The roundup of Venezuelans may be finding some criminals but is also including many that appear to be innocent. So, the Supreme Court ruled that attempts to deport them were illegal. The government had not gone through due process to prove their case.

What is behind this drive to brand these people as criminals and deport them without due process? What is behind the blanket condemnation of the successful CHNV Parole program without evidence that it is negligently bringing in gang members? Is this more about hatred or about the desire for justice?

doubtingmerle · Monday at 11:56 AM

MrMoe said:
And they get punished accordingly when caught.

Without mercy? How many people get fined for going just 1 mph over the speed limit?

When the letter of the law demands too much in a situation, officers often show mercy.

Likewise, if your reason for deporting undocumented workers is simply "because the letter of the law allows it," is that really the best guiding principle in every situation?

If a person is a productive member of society, doing needed work and supporting their family, wouldn't a solution that allows for mercy possibly be better in such a case?

Postvieww · Monday at 12:38 PM

doubtingmerle said:
Your pickup truck is breaking down, and you cannot afford a new one. Good jobs are hard to find, and prices keep going up. You fear you might not be able to keep your God. Times are tough. I get it.

In frustration, you look for people to blame, and you find no shortage of possibilities. You could blame DEI recipients, transgenders, or Democrats, for instance. And then along comes a presidential candidate who speaks out against all the people you blame. True, some of those people being hated could include your friends or even yourself, but largely the message resonates with you. Yes, you have been told this candidate should never be President again, but then again, you hear this candidate is blaming the people you blame. You like that. And so, you vote for him.

But have you turned to hatred, rather than resolving the problems?

Here are some of the groups being hated:

DEI Recipients: Historically, discrimination had made it hard for minorities and women to have equality. DEI programs have been instituted to help overcome this bias, so that the result of both the lingering discrimination plus DEI emphasis would supposedly put everybody on more of an equal footing. Yes, some of those programs may have gone too far. There is always room for healthy debate. But how can it be good to lash out in hatred of all who have sought what they consider fairness?

Immigrants: People have blamed a range of other people here, from criminals to hard-working undocumented people to green card holders to natural-born citizens. All get lumped together with calls for mass deportation. Sure, violent criminals must go, but, in the meantime, many good people get caught up in a wave of hate.

LGBTQ+: No, Mr. Falwell, homosexuals and abortion providers were not the cause of the 9/11 attacks. There are decent people in the LGBTQ+ community who just want to live their lives. But an outpouring of hatred has been showered on these groups.

Other religions and nationalities: Other religions, especially Muslims, have seen immense hatred. In particular, vast hatred is reserved for the Palestinian people. True, Hamas has committed evil acts. Those who do that should be punished. But there are a vast number of people living in Palestine who want to live their lives peacefully. They think they deserve a fairer distribution of the land where they and the Israelis live.

Foreign Countries: There seems to be no end of the vitriol against China. Now, even Europe and Canada are in the crosshairs. Everybody seems to get the blame except, oddly, Russia. But America relies on a world of friendship. Somehow, we strike out in anger at even our friends, thinking that somehow that is OK.

Environmentalists: There is unending anger at those who seek to preserve the environment and seek to be honest about the limited resources in the world we live in. Environmentalists care about our future. Without such concern, the future is bleak.

Government Workers: There has been a vast backlash against the many career government workers who dedicate their lives in civil service. They are degraded as “the Deep State.” They have faced massive layoffs. But don’t forget, at its core, government is good.

The needy: There is endless backlash against welfare queens, without even acknowledging that the welfare program was abolished in the Clinton era, replaced with the much less generous Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF). We need programs like Medicare, TANF, FEMA, and USAID. But unfortunately, these programs get branded as Marxism and receive the wrath of many people.

America is, and always has been, great. That greatness has sometimes been overshadowed with hate. We had slavery, the Trail of Tears, and subjugation of women. Despite that, America has been moving on with things like The New Deal, The Great Society, Civil Rights, and even Compassionate Conservatism. Are we now losing all that? Are we making America hate again?

IMHO you have confused common sense and a desire to to return to the constitution and rule of law with hatred. It is absolutely is not the conservative movement peddling hatred. That dubious blame lies squarely on many in the radical leftist movement. Hatred for Trump, Elon Musk, and even anyone who supports the MAGA agenda. I have personally witnessed several family situations fall prey to this radical leftist hatred. Family members disparaging other family members and even refusing to even communicate with them because they support Trump. Physical attacks on Trump supporters and Tesla owners is a result of hatred of many on the left. Your implication that cutting a bloated government and senseless waste is hatred is a false narrative, it is an attempt to save this nation from collapse. If anyone is peddling hatred and fear it is absolutely the left.

stevil · Monday at 3:02 PM

doubtingmerle said:
What is behind the blanket condemnation of the successful CHNV Parole program without evidence that it is negligently bringing in gang members? Is this more about hatred or about the desire for justice?

It's almost as if the Republican party and their MAGA supporters are against legal immigration of brown people into USA.

RileyG · Monday at 3:55 PM

NxNW said:
Ok.

Nobody is saying otherwise. But for decades minorities have been oppressed and denied employment, as you seem to acknowledge.

If minorities are qualified, they should be equally represented. Are you saying they are not as qualified as whites? Or are you saying that 100% of employers hire based on qualifications 100% of the time?

You’re absolutely spot on. I agree, minorities need to be treated fairly with gainful employment. I’m in complete agreement with you.

RileyG · Monday at 3:55 PM

stevil said:
It's almost as if the Republican party and their MAGA supporters are against legal immigration of brown people into USA.

No one is saying that.

stevil · Monday at 4:36 PM

RileyG said:
No one is saying that.

Are you against legal immigration?

doubtingmerle · Monday at 5:00 PM

MrMoe said:
I’m sure there are many American’s that feel resentment at the fact that illegal immigrants are being rewarded with jobs that other Americans might need or want and at a lower wage than most Americans are willing to work for. That’s completely normal.

What if they were legally? Would you be perfectly fine if they were here legally--such as through the CHNV Parole program that others here seem to hate?

If you are fine with people coming here legally, why not make it legal for more of them to be here? That would answer your objection, yes?

And if you are not fine with these tired, these poor, these huddled masses coming here legally, do you want these words removed from the Statue of Liberty?

Give me your tired, your poor,

Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free,

The wretched refuse of your teeming shore.

Send these, the homeless, tempest-tost to me,

I lift my lamp beside the golden door!

RileyG · Monday at 5:22 PM

stevil said:
Are you against legal immigration?

Of course not! Why on earth would anyone think that?

BCP1928 · Monday at 5:30 PM

RileyG said:
Of course not! Why on earth would anyone think that?

Because you support a President who summarily deports people who are here legally.

Are Folks Making America Hate Again?

Godless and without morals

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Part-Time Breatharian

Part-Time Breatharian

Part-Time Breatharian

Part-Time Breatharian

Old age should burn and rave at close of day;

Godless and without morals

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

I'll think about it.

Believer

Godless and without morals

Veteran

Veteran

Godless and without morals

I'll think about it.

Veteran

Well-Known Member

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