I feel like I can't relate to God or other Christians

trophy33 · Thursday at 12:28 AM

Jamdoc said:
Luke 24

You are right that in Greek there is the word "pneuma" - meaning spirit, but when we consider the context, I think it is more likely to be interpreted as a ghost, a phantasm. Because they were frightened.

That is why for example NIV translates:

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. "
Lk 24:37

All Becomes New · Thursday at 12:37 AM

trophy33 said:
You are right that in Greek there is the word "pneuma" - meaning spirit, but when we consider the context, I think it is more likely to be interpreted as a ghost, a phantasm. Because they were frightened.

That is why for example NIV translates:

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. "
Lk 24:37

Literally, in the same exact passage, he says,

Luke 24:39
"Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself! Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."

trophy33 · Thursday at 12:47 AM

All Becomes New said:
Literally, in the same exact passage, he says,

Luke 24:39
"Look at my hands and my feet, that it is I myself! Touch me and see, because a ghost does not have flesh and bones as you can see I have."

I agree, it was not a ghost.

All Becomes New · Thursday at 12:48 AM

trophy33 said:
I agree, it was not a ghost.

Right, it was Jesus in the flesh.

trophy33 · Thursday at 12:49 AM

All Becomes New said:
Right, it was Jesus in the flesh.

Until He disappeared.

For example:
When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight
Lk 24:30-31

All Becomes New · Thursday at 12:57 AM

trophy33 said:
Until He disappeared.

For example:
When he was at the table with them, he took bread, gave thanks, broke it and began to give it to them. Then their eyes were opened and they recognized him, and he disappeared from their sight
Lk 24:30-31

His body is both spiritual and physical. It is like an angel's. He is not an angel, but his body is similar. Our bodies will be like that, too. But you honestly sound like a Gnostic heretic who believes the physical body is evil. Gnosticism was condemned a LONG time ago. The Apostles believe they saw Christ raised physically from the dead. That is why his body was not in the tomb.

trophy33 · Thursday at 1:01 AM

All Becomes New said:
His body is both spiritual and physical. It is like an angel's. He is not an angel, but his body is similar. Our bodies will be like that, too. But you honestly sound like a Gnostic heretic who believes the physical body is evil. Gnosticism was condemned a LONG time ago. The Apostles believe they saw Christ raised physically from the dead. That is why his body was not in the tomb.

Eeh, here go again with your attacks, naming and judgement. Not interested.

All Becomes New · Thursday at 1:05 AM

trophy33 said:
Eeh, here go again with your attacks, naming and judgement. Not interested.

Then tell me I am wrong and you are not a Gnostic. But you clearly believe what they believe about the resurrection.

trophy33 · Thursday at 1:09 AM

All Becomes New said:
Then tell me I am wrong and you are not a Gnostic. But you clearly believe what they believe about the resurrection.

I am not interested in playing this inquisitor game, which you seem to like.

If you want to talk about some Bible verse or about logic, you are still welcome.

All Becomes New · Thursday at 2:02 AM

trophy33 said:
I am not interested in playing this inquisitor game, which you seem to like.

If you want to talk about some Bible verse or about logic, you are still welcome.

Just want to know if you consider yourself a Gnostic. Not complicated.

Jamdoc · Thursday at 8:37 AM

trophy33 said:
You are right that in Greek there is the word "pneuma" - meaning spirit, but when we consider the context, I think it is more likely to be interpreted as a ghost, a phantasm. Because they were frightened.

That is why for example NIV translates:

"They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. "
Lk 24:37

Same idea, a non corporeal "projection" if you want to call it that. Jesus corrected them that it is actually Him, not a ghost, spirit, projection, figment of imagination, group hallucination, whatever, but was a real, flesh and bones body that they could touch and still bore the wounds from the cross
this was a real, physical resurrection, more than one in fact cause yes, Jesus could appear and disappear and all that, but he was a real physical person in a real body.
and that is what the apostles said we will be like.

2PhiloVoid · Thursday at 8:44 AM

Jamdoc said:
Same idea, a non corporeal "projection" if you want to call it that. Jesus corrected them that it is actually Him, not a ghost, spirit, projection, figment of imagination, group hallucination, whatever, but was a real, flesh and bones body that they could touch and still bore the wounds from the cross
this was a real, physical resurrection, more than one in fact cause yes, Jesus could appear and disappear and all that, but he was a real physical person in a real body.
and that is what the apostles said we will be like.

I agree. ..................... see, we have something in common, brother Jamdoc.

trophy33 · 2025-05-02T00:19:45-0500

Jamdoc said:
...but was a real, flesh and bones body...
...this was a real, physical resurrection...
...he was a real physical person in a real body...

It simply seems to me you do not believe spiritual is real. You think that only physical objects are real? What about God or angels, then?

Jesus said that people will be like angels, after the resurrection:

But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
Lk 20:35-36

And angels are spiritual:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Heb 1:14

Jamdoc · 2025-05-02T14:22:54-0500

trophy33 said:
It simply seems to me you do not believe spiritual is real. You think that only physical objects are real? What about God or angels, then?

Jesus said that people will be like angels, after the resurrection:

But those who are considered worthy of taking part in the age to come and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage, and they can no longer die; for they are like the angels.
Lk 20:35-36

And angels are spiritual:
Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
Heb 1:14

I suppose you're right and Jesus is wrong then
Jesus was mistaken to correct them when they thought they saw a spirit and not a living physical Jesus.
that'd make Gnosticism right
and all orthodox Christianity wrong

all Hail the Heretics I guess </s>

JulieB67 · 2025-05-02T15:33:19-0500

Jamdoc said:
. palaces, thrones, jewels, gold,

Certainly New Jerusalem will have jewels, streets of gold, etc. But I don't believe the rest of the earth will be like that. I personally believe God created this earth prior to this age in all it's glory. That one was destroyed and we look forward to a new one. It's going to be the earth restored but I highly doubt it's all palaces, thrones, jewels, etc. I think it's most likely we will have our own lives, build our own houses,vineyards, all the while going to the New City to worship, etc. Especially going by these verses

Isaiah 65:17 "For, "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

So anyone looking to hold onto the former, it won't even come to mind.

Isaiah 65:18 "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

There's going to be so much joy.

Isaiah 65:19 "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isaiah 65:21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

And you brought up a personal note-

Isaiah 65:24 "And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."

It's going to be amazing. I'm like you, I prefer simple things, etc
Mansion just means resting place and through Christ and I think we have that now. I don't think it means what most people believe. I'd be happy with just a little cottage, gardens and some animals roaming around freely.That's my ideal Heaven. But whatever it will be I trust our Father and once we are in our new bodies, I know we will love it. It's promised. Our Father's eternity is going to be unlike anything and all prepared for those who love him.

It's hard now because our human minds can't quite grasp what it will be like.

Gregory Thompson · 2025-05-02T20:47:23-0500

So the main deal with Christianity that made it so controversial is that the gospel spoke of full body resurrection. It was completely unimaginable in the era it was in.

Making it a ghostly resurrection is gnostic, not christian.

Jamdoc · 2025-05-02T23:59:34-0500

JulieB67 said:
Certainly New Jerusalem will have jewels, streets of gold, etc. But I don't believe the rest of the earth will be like that. I personally believe God created this earth prior to this age in all it's glory. That one was destroyed and we look forward to a new one. It's going to be the earth restored but I highly doubt it's all palaces, thrones, jewels, etc. I think it's most likely we will have our own lives, build our own houses,vineyards, all the while going to the New City to worship, etc. Especially going by these verses

Isaiah 65:17 "For, "Behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

So anyone looking to hold onto the former, it won't even come to mind.

Isaiah 65:18 "But be ye glad and rejoice for ever in that which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy."

There's going to be so much joy.

Isaiah 65:19 "And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.

Isaiah 65:21 "And they shall build houses, and inhabit them; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them."

And you brought up a personal note-

Isaiah 65:24 "And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear."

It's going to be amazing. I'm like you, I prefer simple things, etc
Mansion just means resting place and through Christ and I think we have that now. I don't think it means what most people believe. I'd be happy with just a little cottage, gardens and some animals roaming around freely.That's my ideal Heaven. But whatever it will be I trust our Father and once we are in our new bodies, I know we will love it. It's promised. Our Father's eternity is going to be unlike anything and all prepared for those who love him.

It's hard now because our human minds can't quite grasp what it will be like.

Well I mean like
other people get excited about the descriptions in Revelation, the gold the jewels the crowns and they really emphasize the glory and praise and singing and grandeur stuff.. and I'm just kinda..

It's like, say at one time there was Donald Trump and he had this really nice wooded natural scenic woods, there's streams and mountains and waterfalls and all kinds of animals, and nice shady trees and flowers and just, a naturally beautiful place.
But then he replaces it with a big gaudy golden Trump Tower. And everyone around you is all about it, wearing MAGA hats and cheering on Trump and just LOVING this golden tower because it's so shiny and represents so much wealth and glory
You feel like you liked the first place better and wonder what happened to the guy who made the first place and why's he now building gaudy golden towers in place of the original nature, and all the other people are just talking about how great the gaudy golden towers are and you find it kinda tacky.

and wonder if you ever knew the guy who had made the beautiful natural place in the first place, did they change, or did you never know them in the first place.

I mean yes flawed Analogy, Donald Trump was always gaudy and tacky.
But it boils down to God seeming like He changed His mind and now wants gaudy golden towers and jewels.
like God changed His desires, what He finds good, His motivations, etc etc.

and if He hasn't changed, but ALWAYS wanted gaudy tacky gold and jewels everywhere.. I can't tell if that's better or worse. Either way is depressing and disappointing.

I'm used to gods in other religions having the motivation of having their ego stroked for eternity by masses of worshipers. What appealed to me about Jesus was .. He seemed different than that, more compassionate, even selfless at times. Someone like that I can love and admire. Someone who just wants their ego stroked and people clamoring about how great they are and that's their primary motivation for doing anything.. is disappointing in comparison.

Jamdoc · 2025-05-03T00:07:58-0500

Gregory Thompson said:
So the main deal with Christianity that made it so controversial is that the gospel spoke of full body resurrection. It was completely unimaginable in the era it was in.

Making it a ghostly resurrection is gnostic, not christian.

which is weird because other places in the bible refer to miraculous resurrections from the dead, Elijah and Elisha resurrected people Jesus resurrected people, and the Apostles resurrected people and nobody bats an eye but when you talk about Jesus and the empty tomb they all want to make it non corporeal spirit.

I believe all of them were bodily resurrections, Just Jesus into an incorruptible body, the others were mortal still except perhaps those that resurrected during the crucifixion .. maybe. I kinda think of those as the 24 elders in Revelation.

trophy33 · 2025-05-03T01:25:39-0500

Jamdoc said:
I suppose you're right and Jesus is wrong then
Jesus was mistaken to correct them when they thought they saw a spirit and not a living physical Jesus.
that'd make Gnosticism right
and all orthodox Christianity wrong

all Hail the Heretics I guess </s>

You did not answer any question of mine. And I simply quoted Jesus and the book of Hebrews. You do not like that, because the texts do not fit into your belief system. So you try to sway the conversation away from the texts to heretics hunting, inspired by "All comes new" user.

Ok, your choice, not interested.

Gregory Thompson · 2025-05-03T05:24:06-0500

Jamdoc said:
which is weird because other places in the bible refer to miraculous resurrections from the dead, Elijah and Elisha resurrected people Jesus resurrected people, and the Apostles resurrected people and nobody bats an eye but when you talk about Jesus and the empty tomb they all want to make it non corporeal spirit.

I believe all of them were bodily resurrections, Just Jesus into an incorruptible body, the others were mortal still except perhaps those that resurrected during the crucifixion .. maybe. I kinda think of those as the 24 elders in Revelation.

The power of the new covenant is based on the new heaven and the new earth. The current earth is dying, and will be incinerated in the judgment. When we enter the new creation, the rules of creation will be different, Adam is not the ruler of this creation, but the last Adam, Jesus Christ.

So how Jesus "makes everything new" is a mystery.

Since the new heaven and new earth is still being created currently, anything related to it seem ethereal and vague, and thus the perception that it's all ghostly in nature.

However, in perceiving the spiritual things of the kingdom of God, one must do so spiritually, and not with the fleshly reasoning.

The elders in revelation are quite the mystery, not sure if their true nature will be revealed prior to the point when Isaiah says "For behold, I create new heavens and a new earth; And the former shall not be remembered or come to mind." The reason being, if this change occurs before we see the result, we may "forget" to make the association and get an answer to our question.

I feel like I can't relate to God or other Christians

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